Beer backing up the CO2 line

[MrMatarazzo]

Environment: 5 gallon ball lock keg housed in a mini fridge, 10 lbs CO2 tank with dual gauge regulator, draft tower

Problem: Beer keeps seeping into the gas line.

It doesn't happen very quickly, but slowly over the course of drinking my keg, beer collects in the gas line. I've been ignoring it (cleaning the gas line every time a swap the keg), but recently had cider in the keg and, well, it doesn't get drunk as quickly and today I discovered a pool of sticky cider on the floor where my CO2 tank sits. It looks like the gas line filled completely and then leaked out where the gas line attaches to the regulator (I still have CO2 in the tank, though, so the regulator isn't leaking CO2???)

I'm sure this is something simple, like the ball lock posts need to be repaired/replaced, but the Googles have failed me in narrowing this down. I have new gas/liquid ball lock disconnects. Has anyone experienced this or know how to fix it?

nate

 

[Dr_Jeff]

a check valve on the regulator

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

Either gas post is connected to the keg dispense post or the leg is over carbonated (thereby forcing beer out the gas tube).

However, beer will only flow out the gas tube when the keg is full or nearly full.

Check the connections!

 

[MrMatarazzo]

Definitely plugged into the correct sides - clearly labeled "IN/OUT". And with the gas dip tube only an inch or so long, I see what you mean that it should only happen when the keg is full, but I left out one piece of info - I am force carbonating so I have a piece of tubing connected to the dip tube with a carb stone on the end of it.

So over carbonated could be the issue, but 15 PSI for cider shouldn't be too bad, right? Even my beers tend to be pressurized to between 10 and 15, depending on the style. I would think there would be even pressure - beer @ 15 PSI pushing back against CO2 at 15 PSI would balance out, no?

Or, as Dr_Jeff points out, maybe it's the check valve (or lack of a check valve) on the regulator.

 

[MrMatarazzo]

a check valve on the regulator

I hadn't thought about the regulator itself needing a check valve, but I guess it makes sense since the gas in the keg is cooled down and condenses. I'll inspect that.

 

[IslandLizard]

It looks like the gas line filled completely and then leaked out where the gas line attaches to the regulator

How can we envision a leak like that, there? IOW, how is that gas line connected to the regulator, so it can leak beer but not gas?

In that light, I have the feeling your regulator is filled with beer too, but unsure why or how it comes out at that connection.
I would not rely on a "check valve" if my regulator's life depended on it.

You definitely need to remove or at least disconnect that carbonation line from the gas dip tube or this is going to be a persistent issue. For the short time to force carbonate a keg of beer it may work, but once the pressure equalizes, the beer is going to back up.
To prevent that from happening, disconnect or remove the tubing from the gas dip tube, or transfer ("jump") the beer into another keg that doesn't have a line connected to the gas dip tube. A transfer of carbonated beer needs to be done under counter pressure to prevent or reduce foaming.

 

[jddevinn]

How do you carb the kegs? (With stone, but at the same pressure/temp?) It sounds like the kegs are carbed above the serving pressure/temp equilibrium so that when you let them sit CO2 comes out of solution and raises the keg pressure above the regulator pressure.

 

[IslandLizard]

How do you carb the kegs? (With stone, but at the same pressure/temp?) It sounds like the kegs are carbed above the serving pressure/temp equilibrium so that when you let them sit CO2 comes out of solution and raises the keg pressure above the regulator pressure.

When the gas pressure is turned off, any CO2 in the stone and line dissolves into the beer, and makes the beer creep up the line.

I had the same happening when I left my O2 wand in a bucket of Starsan for a few hours. Glad I caught it before it got all the way up to the regulator.

 

[Jayjay1976]

 

[jddevinn]

That should only happen when the gas is off (or out) though, if it is still on new CO2 should replace what dissolves until the beer is at equilibrium for the temp.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Don't use a tube and stone to force carb. Use my method instead.

My world-famous, never-fail force carbing regimen:

1. Rack cold crashed beer to sanitized/purged keg.
2. Connect gas line at serving pressure and chill for 24 hours.
3. Turn regulator up to 12psi for 15 minutes, shaking gently.
4. Turn regulator up to 20 psi for 7 minutes and shake it like a polaroid picture. Borrow sugar from yo neighbor.
5. Increase pressure to 32 psi and rock steady, steady rockin' for 45 seconds. Later on, claim it was 90 seconds.
6. increase pressure to 35 psi, rock once every 2/3 second for 3-1/3 seconds.
7. Disconnect gas line, gently pull relief valve upward at 78 degrees from the horizontal to vent pressure. Apply band-aid to index finger.
8. Reconnect gas line, set regulator to serving pressure.
9. Sit on both hands and wait two full, agonizing weeks.
10. Enjoy a perfectly carbonated beer, every damned time.

 

[jddevinn]

1. Rack cold crashed beer to sanitized/purged keg.
2. Connect gas line at serving pressure and chill for 24 hours.
3. Turn regulator up to 12psi for 15 minutes, shaking gently.
4. Turn regulator up to 20 psi for 7 minutes and shake it like a polaroid picture. Borrow sugar from yo neighbor.
5. Increase pressure to 32 psi and rock steady, steady rockin' for 45 seconds. Later on, claim it was 90 seconds.
6. increase pressure to 35 psi, rock once every 2/3 second for 3-1/3 seconds.
7. Disconnect gas line, gently pull relief valve upward at 78 degrees from the horizontal to vent pressure. Apply band-aid to index finger.
8. Reconnect gas line, set regulator to serving pressure.
9. Sit on both hands and wait two full, agonizing weeks.
10. Enjoy a perfectly carbonated beer, every damned time.

I like 'my method'
1. Connect gas line, set regulator to serving pressure at conditioning temperature that corresponds to the CO2 volumes at serving temperature.
2. Sit on both hands and wait two to four full, agonizing weeks.
3. Enjoy a perfectly carbonated beer, every damned time.

 

[IslandLizard]

I like 'my method'
1. Connect gas line, set regulator to serving pressure at conditioning temperature that corresponds to the CO2 volumes at serving temperature.
2. Sit on both hands and wait two to four full, agonizing weeks.
3. Enjoy a perfectly carbonated beer, every damned time.

Although, technically, that's indeed called forced carbonating using the set and forget method, I think most who want to drink their carbonated beer sooner than the usual 2-4 weeks waiting time, want to burst carbonate.

Here's my burst carbonate method:

1. Make sure the beer is (ice) cold, 30-40°F, as it typically would be after (O2 free) cold crashing.
2. Semi-closed transfer into a 100% liquid pre-purged keg.
3. Force-burst carbonate by rolling/rocking the keg at 35 psi for ~7-10 minutes. With this method, the gas post/QD is pointing up (0°), rolling the keg back and forth between -60° to +60° or thereabouts. Stop when the regulator stops groaning or the gas stops streaming in (when the low pitch hissing stops).
4. Release most of the excess 35psi (pull PRV) and reduce serving pressure to 12 psi.
5. It should pour beautifully, to be enjoyed 10 minutes after filling the keg!
6. If still a bit too foamy, keep bleeding the excess pressure and/or reduce the serving pressure a little more to 10-8 psi. When foaming recedes, you can increase the pressure slowly.

 

[SrLobaugh]

If beer is pushing back, there is a leak somewhere in the hose where it connects to the regulator or in the regulator itself. Your keg is fine...if it wasn't the leak would be at the keg and not the regulator. Check washers and use a soap spray bottle and look for bubbles.

 

[jddevinn]

If beer is pushing back, there is a leak somewhere in the hose where it connects to the regulator or in the regulator itself. Your keg is fine...if it wasn't the leak would be at the keg and not the regulator. Check washers and use a soap spray bottle and look for bubbles.

This would still only back up beer if the regulator pressure is set to less then the keg pressure.

 

[jddevinn]

sooner than the usual 2-4 weeks waiting time

I've never had a beer that didn't improve after at least 2 weeks in the keg, even if burst carbonated.

 

[SrLobaugh]

This would still only back up beer if the regulator pressure is set to less then the keg pressure.

Yes, but it wouldn't leak on the floor.

Quote Reply

 

[jddevinn]

It will leak on the floor if it gets into the regulator. Most manifolds and some/most regulators have check valves to prevent this from happening but some do not.

 

[jerrylotto]

This was not complicated. You have a leak where the cider dropped out. It is normally a gas leak until the line fills. You are probably wasting a lot of CO2. Use soapy water to visualize a gas leak and tighten/Teflon tape threads and reattch the hose to fix.

 

[Vale71]

When the gas pressure is turned off, any CO2 in the stone and line dissolves into the beer, and makes the beer creep up the line.

I had the same happening when I left my O2 wand in a bucket of Starsan for a few hours. Glad I caught it before it got all the way up to the regulator.

Not if the beer is already carbonated to equilibrium. Your experience with Starsan involved an uncarbonated liquid that could easily absorb the small amount of CO2 in the line without achieving equilibrium. Given that the OP leaves the carbonation stone connected all the time and that a carb stone causes a drop in pressure the pressure in his gas line should actually be higher than equilibrium pressure and this would ensure that no beer could back up into the line. That is, unless he has a leak and he closes the shut-off valve on the gas tank between drinking sessions. As pressure drops because of the leak beer would slowly back up into the line and if he waits long enough it will eventually reach the leak and start leaking into the kegerator.

 

[MrMatarazzo]

It will leak on the floor if it gets into the regulator. Most manifolds and some/most regulators have check valves to prevent this from happening but some do not.

After reading through the suggestions here, I am thinking my regulator's check valve prevented cider (beer) from going back to the CO2 tank - there's no moisture on the tank side of the regulator when I removed it. Since the pressure continued to build in the line, it finally leaked out at its weakest point, the hose clamp at the tube connection on the regulator.

From now on I'll be sure to remove the carb stone after force carbonating! Or....

9. Sit on both hands and wait two full, agonizing weeks.

Ugh! Why wouldn't I just naturally carbonate at that point? Hmm... though I've never tried naturally carbonating during the 2 - 3 week "secondary" fermentation. I usually do 5 - 8 days primary, about 2 - 3 weeks in the glass secondary. Then move it to the keg, cool it in the kegerator overnight and then force carbonate and drink. I wonder how it would turn out if I only do 1 week in the glass secondary, then move it to the keg and naturally carbonate while it sits for 2 more meeks?

 

[IslandLizard]

I wonder how it would turn out if I only do 1 week in the glass secondary, then move it to the keg

Skip the secondary, transfer the beer directly to the keg.

Transfer in a closed or near-closed fashion to prevent air/O2 from touching your beer. The receiving keg should be 100% pre-filled with CO2, by either fermentation CO2, or a 100% liquid prepurge. The keg is filled through the liquid out post with a QD on it. The lid remains on the keg until next cleaning.

 

[Dr_Jeff]

Do the primary, move the beer to a keg, naturally carbonate, eliminate the week in the glass secondary. The first pint will have a bit of spooge, but after that it will pour clear, unless you move the keg. Or after the first week, move it to the kegerator and put it on gas and wait the two weeks, in the meantime it will carbonate and clear. If you want it extra clear, add clear gelatin at the time of kegging and it will be crystal clear at the end of the two weeks.

 

[EDF713]

After reading through the suggestions here, I am thinking my regulator's check valve prevented cider (beer) from going back to the CO2 tank - there's no moisture on the tank side of the regulator when I removed it. Since the pressure continued to build in the line, it finally leaked out at its weakest point, the hose clamp at the tube connection on the regulator.

From now on I'll be sure to remove the carb stone after force carbonating! Or....



Ugh! Why wouldn't I just naturally carbonate at that point? Hmm... though I've never tried naturally carbonating during the 2 - 3 week "secondary" fermentation. I usually do 5 - 8 days primary, about 2 - 3 weeks in the glass secondary. Then move it to the keg, cool it in the kegerator overnight and then force carbonate and drink. I wonder how it would turn out if I only do 1 week in the glass secondary, then move it to the keg and naturally carbonate while it sits for 2 more meeks?

There are a couple of other options. Sorry if it's been mentioned, but have you looked at checked valve disconnects? - Check Valved Ball Lock Disconnect Gas In - Flare | MoreBeer

Yet another option is one of these. Pricy, but would allow you to connect your gas line to the gas in after carbonating. - Keg Lid for Carbonating

 

[MrMatarazzo]

Yet another option is one of these. Pricy, but would allow you to connect your gas line to the gas in after carbonating. - Keg Lid for Carbonating

Doh! I have those and just haven't been moving the gas line to the regular "IN" post! I got them simply because disconnecting the tube & carb stone inside the keg every time was... tricky.

 

[jddevinn]

I am thinking my regulator's check valve prevented cider (beer) from going back to the CO2 tank - there's no moisture on the tank side of the regulator when I removed it. Since the pressure continued to build in the line, it finally leaked out at its weakest point, the hose clamp at the tube connection on the regulator.

Good!

I agree with everyone that said to skip secondary. For almost every style it is not necessary. Slow force carb is good, natural carb is even better.

 

[jddevinn]

A couple years ago I modified two of my older kegs to have a home made carbing lid like above. I used them as a brite tank for carbonating, conditioning and to clear the beer so that once it was transferred into a keg the keg could be moved without kicking up sediment. So that I could take kegs to events, hook up and immediately serve clear.

I only did this for a couple beers. The added work, and more importantly O2 uptake, made this 'shortcut' not worth it.

 

[EDF713]

Doh! I have those and just haven't been moving the gas line to the regular "IN" post! I got them simply because disconnecting the tube & carb stone inside the keg every time was... tricky.

I guess the lid plus the checked disconnect should help, if the backing up occurs before in the timeframe you would be carbonating and before you can switch the gas line over. Here I am trying to help when I haven't had the problem, FWIW I carbonate naturally with a spunding valve, I'm a big fan.