Beefing up the grain bill to account for efficiency problems

[Jayhem]

If you want to hit your gravity perfectly why not cool a sample of wort to 60F before you boil and see where the gravity is? This will tell you if you need to add some DME to hit your target gravity or not. I learned this the hard way when making big beers all grain....it is better to take a pre-boil sample than to make assumptions because you cannot do much after the boil.

 

[tre9er]

Even a Corona Mill (which I have and consistently get 80% efficiency, no tannins, clear beer) for $30 shipped will improve your efficiency over that crush.

 

[adamjackson]

Even a Corona Mill (which I have and consistently get 80% efficiency, no tannins, clear beer) for $30 shipped will improve your efficiency over that crush.

If you want to hit your gravity perfectly why not cool a sample of wort to 60F before you boil and see where the gravity is? This will tell you if you need to add some DME to hit your target gravity or not. I learned this the hard way when making big beers all grain....it is better to take a pre-boil sample than to make assumptions because you cannot do much after the boil.

great tips. thanks guys. maybe a mill is what I need.

 

[zeg]

The fact that you're unsure how to scale up a recipe based on efficiency is somewhat troubling to me as well. It's simple math, but the software helps, obviously. What you want to do is just keep the proportions of each grain the same (ie. if recipe has 70% 2-row, 10% C-60 and 20% Vienna) and end up with the planned OG.

Just a note---if you're scaling by a lot (here we're talking 30-50% increases in grain bill based on the original figure of a ~1.045 beer coming in at 1.030, which is huge), just scaling each item in the grain bill may not work as you'd expect. Things like crystal, dark roasted malts or grains, etc, which do not require mashing, are probably giving you better efficiency than the mash overall. If you double them, you're likely to throw the recipe off. It's hard to say exactly what to do, but I'd be more inclined to increase base malts by a larger proportion.

You also have to deal with the effect of a thicker mash on the process---you'll probably have to add more water, and then boil down to hit the same volumes, etc. So while in principle it's easy, getting just the same result is hard. In that sense, I agree with your main point that fixing the efficiency problem is the best solution.

If you want to hit your gravity perfectly why not cool a sample of wort to 60F before you boil and see where the gravity is? This will tell you if you need to add some DME to hit your target gravity or not. I learned this the hard way when making big beers all grain....it is better to take a pre-boil sample than to make assumptions because you cannot do much after the boil.

This is good advice. I do partial mashes, and always pull a sample at the end of the mash to see how it went. I think adding DME to make up a gravity discrepancy is probably the easiest way to go---it can be fixed after the mash, so you don't have to guess what your efficiency will be this week, and it's roughly equivalent to increasing the base malt.

But, it'll still change the recipe...

 

[Milan37]

Forgive me if this sounds a little harsh, it's not intended so: What you're doing is called "flailing": trying things at random in the hope that one of them (whatever you last did) will both identify the cause and solve your problem. It's a time-consuming, expensive, and frustrating approach (to wit: you now have a mash tun you didn't need). It's a problem that plagues many troubleshooting efforts--I remind myself about it when working on my old car ('67 Volvo) and motorcycle: it's much, much better to clearly identify the problem first then work to fix it.

If the problem is very low efficiency, there are several possible causes. The method of brewing is not likely to be high on that list.

 

[tre9er]

Just a note---if you're scaling by a lot (here we're talking 30-50% increases in grain bill based on the original figure of a ~1.045 beer coming in at 1.030, which is huge), just scaling each item in the grain bill may not work as you'd expect. Things like crystal, dark roasted malts or grains, etc, which do not require mashing, are probably giving you better efficiency than the mash overall. If you double them, you're likely to throw the recipe off. It's hard to say exactly what to do, but I'd be more inclined to increase base malts by a larger proportion.

You also have to deal with the effect of a thicker mash on the process---you'll probably have to add more water, and then boil down to hit the same volumes, etc. So while in principle it's easy, getting just the same result is hard. In that sense, I agree with your main point that fixing the efficiency problem is the best solution.

I think in the case of low efficiency for most on here, it's a matter of crush and lauter technique and/or volume errors. That means they're not getting as much extract from ANY of the grains, not just those that convert via enzymes. Also of note: Crystal can convert itself and does have fermentables in it, albeit fewer than base malts.

 

[adamjackson]

Forgive me if this sounds a little harsh, it's not intended so: What you're doing is called "flailing": trying things at random in the hope that one of them (whatever you last did) will both identify the cause and solve your problem. It's a time-consuming, expensive, and frustrating approach (to wit: you now have a mash tun you didn't need). It's a problem that plagues many troubleshooting efforts--I remind myself about it when working on my old car ('67 Volvo) and motorcycle: it's much, much better to clearly identify the problem first then work to fix it.

If the problem is very low efficiency, there are several possible causes. The method of brewing is not likely to be high on that list.

so the argument is that no one on home brew talk needs a Mash tun, wort chiller or grain mill?

Some people don't need all electric blichmann setups but they have them anyway.

I'm not trying to sound defensive but to say I didn't need a mash tun, something I wanted to buy since the beginning is a bit extreme. I wanted a mash tun since before doing my first batch and finally saved up enough to get one...not in an effort to improve efficiency, just because it would be easier.

 

[zeg]

I think in the case of low efficiency for most on here, it's a matter of crush and lauter technique and/or volume errors. That means they're not getting as much extract from ANY of the grains, not just those that convert via enzymes. Also of note: Crystal can convert itself and does have fermentables in it, albeit fewer than base malts.

Maybe so, but I'd worry that at the kinds of scale factors we're talking about here, it may be enough to change the recipe. In any case, I agree that it's better (eventually) to fix the root of the problem rather than band-aid solutions. Still, though, band-aids can sometimes get the job done...

And yeah, crystal does have some stuff that can convert, but plenty of people just steep it without worrying about further conversion.

 

[Milan37]

Fair enough. This is a hobby, none of us 'need' anything. My point was that you don't need a mash tun to improve efficiency. You're saying that wasn't the purpose. Ok by me.

But this is at least the second thread where you've received advice to check your crush (the first was the BIAB thread you deleted). "Beefing up" a grain bill when you aren't sure of your crush is more flailing: the hope is that if you scale up enough, the efficiency problem will be solved. But the problem isn't your grain bill.

So the advice holds: identify the problem, identify the possible solutions, and work through that list starting from easy (cheap, fast) to complex in a methodical way.

 

[adamjackson]

Fair enough. This is a hobby, none of us 'need' anything. My point was that you don't need a mash tun to improve efficiency. You're saying that wasn't the purpose. Ok by me.

But this is at least the second thread where you've received advice to check your crush (the first was the BIAB thread you deleted). "Beefing up" a grain bill when you aren't sure of your crush is more flailing: the hope is that if you scale up enough, the efficiency problem will be solved. But the problem isn't your grain bill.

So the advice holds: identify the problem, identify the possible solutions, and work through that list starting from easy (cheap, fast) to complex in a methodical way.

Yep. I've neve crushed grain myself. You'd think if midwest was as crappy as it seems, more people would be voicing about it.

I don't want to point fingers at them but it starts with the grain and people here are telling me their grains simply aren't crushed enough.

 

[mgortel]

I would suggest that you outline your exact methodology you are using....line by line in detail....which would allow us to review it and see if we can pick up on any issues or inconsistencies you have with your process.

This is what I did before my first all grain batch a few years ago and I got great feedback...that was very helpful for all grain brewing.

If your recipe estimate for OG is 1.052 and you are getting 1.030...then your efficiency is more like 40%....since most recipes are already based on 70% efficiency...I cannot imagine your efficiency is really that low though.

WHen you say your measured OG is 1.030 as an example you give....is that the pre-boil OG? Is that at 68 degrees F???

We will need more info....

P.S. Beersmith has a freee 21 day trial.....

 

[Milan37]

I contacted Midwest and NB awhile back to ask if they would double-crush my grains for me (I do BIAB). Both said they could not, as they don't do custom crushes. I understand why--imagine the hassle if every order came with a specific crush. So I go to my LHBS and double-crush it there. I wouldn't be surprised if they ignore your request for a fine crush.

If you don't have a LHBS close by, I'd second the suggestion to get a mill. Then you might repeat one of your previous brews, keeping the process as close to original as possible to minimize variables, and compare results. Heck, post pictures here of your crush and see what the good folks think. If you still have an efficiency issue, then you have at least eliminated one variable.

 

[mgortel]

I buy my grains from Northern Brewer....I have never had an efficiency issue......

 

[hopsalot]

Try mashing 1 lbs. Midwest ground 2 row in 1 gal of water you should get gravity around 1.037-1.038. If your gravity is lower then I blame the crush if it is within range then mash technique needs to be analyzed

 

[hopsalot]

Also Midwest should be able to verify the PPG of the grains they are selling

 

[tre9er]

Also Midwest should be able to verify the PPG of the grains they are selling

This. Lot sheets vary. I noticed many people use 38 for extract on 2-row when some of the more recent sheets I've seen suggest it's closer to 36. I've made some adjustments to my ingredients list accordingly.

 

[RoadKing]

I don't want to point fingers at them but it starts with the grain and people here are telling me their grains simply aren't crushed enough.

That grain was crushed?

 

[foos-n-brew]

Adam - I would strongly suggest that you buy your own grain mill. I had issues hitting my gravities also and I was even able to go to Midwest in person and grind my own grains!

This isn't a slam on Midwest at all as I still go there to buy by supplies.

Buying a Barley Crusher, watching my water volumes (insuring you don't leave wort in the mash tun) and checking the pre-boil gravity solved all of my problems. My efficiency is right at 75%, but that's not as important as it being consistent.

 

[zendog]

Are there any brewing clubs in your area? Or an LHBS that hosts brew days? Spending time with other brewers and sharing knowledge (real-time, not on the interweb) is invaluable.

 

[adamjackson]

Are there any brewing clubs in your area? Or an LHBS that hosts brew days? Spending time with other brewers and sharing knowledge (real-time, not on the interweb) is invaluable.

My nearest movie theatre is an hour away. LOL. Not much here by the way of "community"

i'm going to get a grain crusher. Next purchase was going to be a wort chiller but you've all made it obvious I need to crush my own grain. Thanks all. I'm looking at the rest of my grain (I bought 4 batches worth at once) and it's all half milled. what a bummer. Should I just return it?

 

[Mb2658]

No. If you get your own mill you can mill it again to your liking. Keep your eyes open for Black Friday/Cyber Monday deals. This is a great time of the year for deals. Check out sites like Homebrewfinds.com and keep an eye on the classified forums here. Great deals pop up regularly. Good luck!

 

[adamjackson]

I'm on Midwest now, which kind should I get?


http://www.midwestsupplies.com/all-grain-brewing/all-grain-equipment/grain-mills.html

I won't buy today but curious what you all recommend. I'd like one that I can put a screw driver into so I can just mill electricly without cranking for 2 hours.

I'm doing a stout next week which is 18 pounds of grain. Don't want to do by hand!!!

 

[Mb2658]

I'm on Midwest now, which kind should I get?

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/all-grain-brewing/all-grain-equipment/grain-mills.html

I won't buy today but curious what you all recommend. I'd like one that I can put a screw driver into so I can just mill electricly without cranking for 2 hours.

I'm doing a stout next week which is 18 pounds of grain. Don't want to do by hand!!!

Well, it depends on a lot of things. First and foremost is your budget and second is your preference. A lot of people start with a Victoria style mill and then move up to a roller mill. Some people go all in and buy the biggest and most expensive 3 roller stainless steel mill that they can find. I started with a Victoria mill and then moved up to a Cereal Killer from Adventures in Homebrewing. I had some warranty issues with that mill and so I returned it (I can't say enough good things about the guys at Adventures in Homebrewing BTW) and got a 3 roller Crankandstein mill. You can get a good crush with all of the mills that I have mentioned. My list is not all inclusive. There are various other mills that people love and have had good success with.. I would recommend that you do some research and find what works for you. There are a lot of threads discussing the advantages and disadvantages of the various options.

 

[RoadKing]

I have a barley crusher and and it works great, but I read the monsters are better in the long run, but more expensive.
There are alot of threads here comparing them.

 

[zeg]

I don't have a crusher yet, but my advice would be to think about how seriously you take the hobby and whether you're sure to continue with it for a long time. If so, then just bite the bullet (or wait and save up if necessary) and get a mid-to-high range crusher. In my experience, if I get a low-end one to start, I just end up wanting to replace it in the end, so I'd have saved that cost if I had been more patient. It's only $100ish between the cheap and middle of the pack of the better ones. That is a substantial amount, but compared to the cost of brewing, it's not enormous. If you brew monthly, just move to every 6 weeks for a year and you'll have recouped the expense.

But, some people do have great success with the cheaper mills...

 

[foos-n-brew]

I use a 1/2" drill to power my Barley Crusher and it works just fine. You can get more elaborate with a motor but either beats cranking it by hand.

 

[Mojzis]

I have a 20$ ebay corona style mill and I get excellent efficiency.

 

[tre9er]

Holy moly...just looked at the "crush" pics on your flickr...wow, that's not even crushed, really. Horrid. Not acceptable

 

[BryanJ]

Your crush is the problem here like a few others have said, fix your crush by either getting a mill or ordering from a different supplier. You're not a bad home brewer its not the process of brewing the beer is not the cause for a low eff at this point, that crush is beyond terrible.

For mills in my opinion either use a corona mill or spend the extra to get a nice stainless steel monster mill.

 

[adamjackson]

Your crush is the problem here like a few others have said, fix your crush by either getting a mill or ordering from a different supplier. You're not a bad home brewer its not the process of brewing the beer is not the cause for a low eff at this point, that crush is beyond terrible.

For mills in my opinion either use a corona mill or spend the extra to get a nice stainless steel monster mill.

I brewed again yesterday but this time, had a local buddy recrush my grains. Hit my gravity spot on. It went great and tasted great.

This reminds me...my BIAB foul ups were also by the book with grain from Midwest. So, from now on, I'll order from northern brewer and start researching my own grain mill.

Thanks all. I never would have known that the grain wasn't crushed properly.