BCS 460 is the bane of my existence

[OneHoppyGuy]

Okay, Here is the project:
BCS 460
24VAC Honeywell Gas valves w/intermittent spark igniters
SSR 4 relay 5V module

Note: this system was working and the same wiring has worked for other brew stands we have built (BrewSteel.com)
All grounds are tied together
24VAC Transformer runs power to panel mounted switch
From switch power goes to N.O. relay contact
Common relay contact connected to gas valve ignition module

Using Output 0 (tried 0 - 3) manually
- Nothing attached to the BCS - BCS stays connected Output 0 remains on
- BCS attached to relay - BCS stays connected Output 0 remains on
- BCS attached to relay, Gas Valve igniter NOT grounded - igniter fires, BCS stays connected Output 0 remains on
- Direct jumper between relay contacts, igniter grounded - igniter fires
- BCS attached to relay, Gas Valve igniter grounded - igniter fires for a split second, BCS disconnects

I have tried 3 different relay modules

I am am stumped. Please help if you can.

 

[luhrks]

Hoppy,
Email me some pics and the wiring diagram and I'll take a stab.

Also, what model valve?

 

[luhrks]

Just looked it up. You need to keep everything on the 5v side of the house isolated from the igniter/24v side.

Think of the BCS grounds as -5v commons instead of actual grounds.

We're talking 250ma and 5v Max.

Any more than that on the BCS -5v and you could let the magic smoke out of the box...

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

@#$%!!! SSR relay module... pretty sure there's voltage feeding back through the contacts...

 

[JonW]

@#$%!!! SSR relay module... pretty sure there's voltage feeding back through the contacts...

SSR <> contacts

Are you sure it's an SSR relay or is it a contact relay? If it's a standard contact relay, then you're getting voltage spikes back through the coil.

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

4 SSR Relay Module/board
only thing left in the equation

and you pretty sure their SSR relays... I have many years experience in controls systems automation dating back to the mid '70s

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

hey JonW... look familiar?

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

TGIF!!
Fixed!! Replaced the relay module with puck style SSRs and we have contact!!

:rockin:

 

[JonW]

Can you show the two different relays that you used?

I used a small DC-DC SSR IC for my igniters. It was a pretty simple setup as they are the BBQ style ones powered by a 1.5V battery.

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

Gas Valve

Ignition Module

Igniter/Pilot assembly

SSR Relay module (Left) Puck Style SSR (Right)

 

[JonW]

The one on the left is not an SSR. They are coil relays using darlington transistors (the little round black items) for low voltage switching (0-5V). Yeah, you can't use those.

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

So I've learned... why then can they be used for Arduino boards?

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

I'm still looking for someone to collaborate on a brewing system controller

 

[JonW]

So I've learned... why then can they be used for Arduino boards?

You can use them with the BCS just fine. Just not for igniters. I have an 8 channel board from the same company that I use to control my motorized ball valves. You need the opto-isolation that a true SSR gives you so the igniter spark can't jump the coil.

 

[JonW]

I'm still looking for someone to collaborate on a brewing system controller

What's wrong with the existing offerings out there? If it's cost, have you approached either company about being a reseller?

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

What's wrong with the existing offerings out there? If it's cost, have you approached either company about being a reseller?

Cost is not the issue. They are relatively inexpensive. Maybe we want our own solution that addresses shortcomings. Maybe I want to compete. Take a look at our stands and you see we like thinking outside the kettle.

 

[luhrks]

Woot!
Glad ya got that one sorted.

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

Woot!
Glad ya got that one sorted.

luhrks: Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to call and help me sort this out. It saved my head from clumps of hair missing! :fro:

This forum is first class - Seriously. I have used several and this one far exceeds. Keep it up y'all!

 

[kladue]

The spark ignition modules generate a lot of electrical noise, things work better when transformer and ignition are mounted in separate enclosure and ignitor wiring does not enter enclosure with BCS module.

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

The spark ignition modules generate a lot of electrical noise, things work better when transformer and ignition are mounted in separate enclosure and ignitor wiring does not enter enclosure with BCS module.

BCS and Network Bridge are located in a separate enclosure.
Not using that style anymore. Using the Smart Gas valves now where everything is mounted on the valve and all you need to supply is your 24VAC

 

[kladue]

How many functions are needed for a home brewing control system?,all the current offerings are on/off control, temperature measurement, and level, not exotic but functional. Not sure what the needs are and what type of user interface is needed, basic manual control, or up to most functions and calculations made for easier use for the less tech experienced folks.

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

We have customers who want "exotic". I'm not an engineer but grew up in the control systems arena. Worked on some very large control panels for refineries and other industrial applications so I am quite aware of different capabilities and applications. Wired thousands of relays, did a lot of drafting and design, this is nothing new to me. Back in '72 I was wondering why showers did not have temperature settings for each bather and how it could be done.

It's not necessarily the particular functions but rather the shortcomings of current brewing controllers that I would like to address.

 

[kladue]

I have done the far edge of brewing automation, now working on a scaled version of that with some off the shelf boards and a touch application for an ARM front end with 7" touch screen. The application will probably end up as a single screen with icons for helper popup screens for additional functions, and run time configuration of IO instead of dedicated positions like the current PLC front ends.
This is just a down time activity for me at this point, just curious to see what it can do with a bit of tinkering.

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

EXACTLY!!
The one thing I dislike about your gallery is that the photos are to @#$!! small.
A media PC tucked away and a touch screen... is what I envision.

BTW Kladue, I would love to see your brew system and pick your brain.

 

[kladue]

Here is a link to the Picassa gallery with the pictures, this is the application screens https://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/OneTouchProgramGraphics, others of old system and construction can be found there.

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

Wow, you have put a lot of work into that. Very nice work Kevin.

 

[luhrks]

EXACTLY!!
The one thing I dislike about your gallery is that the photos are to @#$!! small.
A media PC tucked away and a touch screen... is what I envision.

BTW Kladue, I would love to see your brew system and pick your brain.

Google Raspberry Pi .
if I was inclined to go down that road Kurt, that's the direction I'd go.

Kladue,
Those screen caps made lil Elvis put on weight.

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

Google Raspberry Pi .
if I was inclined to go down that road Kurt, that's the direction I'd go.

Cool Thanks. One problem... I wouldn't know where to start. My plate is full and don't have time to learn it. I need to contract it out

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

The Puck style SSR relays did NOT fix the problem. I had to replace the gas valves for a type with hot surface igniter. GRRRRRR

 

[MaxOut]

BCS and Network Bridge are located in a separate enclosure.
Not using that style anymore. Using the Smart Gas valves now where everything is mounted on the valve and all you need to supply is your 24VAC

I've been bragging about the Honeywell SmartValves every chance I get, far superior to the two piece set up. Less clutter and places for things to go wrong. Cheers!!