BCS-460 Beta Test

[slimer]

In my mind, a netbook, like an EeePC would be a perfect compliment to a system like this. Small, portable and able to run FF.

 

[eccsynd]

green is "go" or on and "Red" is off

Funny you should bring this up! There has been a very long email thread about this topic from the beta testers. Originally (in the version that you see in the screenshots) we have:
green: enabled - off
red: enabled - on
dark gray: unenabled (not controlled)

The thought process was that green-off = safety, red-on = hot/danger. But we agreed that the scheme was confusing. The new scheme that the beta testers and I have agreed to is:

gray- enabled off, or unenabled
red - on

With only one color (background default gray not included), hopefully there won't be any confusion. Anyone else have an opinion?

 

[eccsynd]

In my mind, a netbook, like an EeePC would be a perfect compliment to a system like this. Small, portable and able to run FF.

Yes, anything that can run a browser can control it. In fact, one of our beta testers is developing an iPhone app. With the smaller resolutions, some of the formatting isn't ideal, so it would be a nice addition to put a minimalistic control page (no gauges, just text and buttons) so you could pull it up on a smaller display. I'll put that on the list.

 

[slimer]

I was just thinking that some people have brewstands and using a 9" netbook would be small enough to fit onto/into their control panels.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Ok, why not add a button we can press to select the background colors to be reversed from your red on, green off, to green on and red off as a option for the user of the unit to select. To me as an industrial electrician all our MMC units, start stops, magnetic starters and VFD all had green for on red for off. This is a massive reversed color problem I see with natural eye brain reflexes working this equipment all these years. Adding a small switch or pin hole above a small PC mounted switch to poke and reverse the operation status colors would be a big plus for this this unit. I would hate to open it up a brand new unit and change the LED's to the correct colors of operation.
Not to start a pissing war on a great project but this just blows me away from years working around MCC's magnetic starters and VFD control systems.
Your this far along and almost complete don't let this reversed color be one of its faults.

 

[np0x]

It seems some cross linking is in order...my thread is on northern brewer's forums...

The Northern Brewer Homebrew Forum • View topic - Got my beta unit! (was: Temp Controller Beta testers needed)

cheers!

 

[contagent93]

would this be able to control the entire brewing process for a steam based system

 

[slnies]

would this be able to control the entire brewing process for a steam based system

Contagent93,

Depends on how you set your system up. But steam control is quit possible given the capabilities of the BCS. In fact, the control part should be quit easy. One program to control the boiler and one for the mash. Keep in mind that you can run up to 4 processes at a time as long as you are not sharing outputs and inputs in those processes.

S.

 

[np0x]

anything that you can switch on and off with electricity it can control...if you wanted to create a glycol based system it could control that, it could be used for home automation if you wanted to go that way, i am actually using it right now to keep my christmas lights outside on for only 4 hours in the evening, just cause I can. So if it can do christmas lights(definately not it's desired use) it can certainly control a steam system as long as you can switch a valve with electricity, the ssr's are able to control as much electricity as you want to control with them, as long as you buy the correctly spec'd ones.

would this be able to control the entire brewing process for a steam based system

 

[np0x]

ECC PLC brewery controller - BrewBoard

There are three of us...

 

[p4ck37p1mp]

I just found out I get mine Thursday or Friday, so expect another thread to get started!

 

[BrewBeemer]

Can the control cable to the temp probe be removed to remove the keggles for washing without wash water damaging the temp probe terminals and socket end? I can picture the keggle rolling onto the brass probe and mashing those soft brass threads making the probe a useless item. If not waterproof plus protecting the threads with the cable disconnected will there be a end cap available that can be screwed onto the temp probe when the cable is removed like a automotive schrader valve stem cap before washing? Keggles electrically heated with the power and temp cords removed would prevent unnecessary cable and cord wear and tear plus the PITA of them in the way while cleaning the keggles at the end of a long brew day.

 

[np0x]

Can the control cable to the temp probe be removed to remove the keggles for washing without wash water damaging the temp probe terminals and socket end?

Yeah, the temperature probes have a nice little compression fitting that goes around the temperature probe and is finger tightened(or a little bit more)...that comes right off, probe slides out and you can manipulate the keggle freely at that point. And it goes back in just as easy and is water tight without any messing around with teflon tape.

 

[trip2hard]

I just found out I get mine Thursday or Friday, so expect another thread to get started!

Can I come over and check it out..? I might still pick up that 2-row if your willing to get rid of a sack.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Yeah, the temperature probes have a nice little compression fitting that goes around the temperature probe and is finger tightened(or a little bit more)...that comes right off, probe slides out and you can manipulate the keggle freely at that point. And it goes back in just as easy and is water tight without any messing around with teflon tape.

That means you must loosen the compression nut which compresses the rubber or soft compressable washer around the probe then remove the probe and cable feeding it before removing and cleaning the keggles everytime at the end of a brewing session. What a PITA to replace the probe with a rod of the same diameter to prevent a leak you created by removing the temp probe and cable that's dangling so you can remove the keggle to properly clean it after every use. A new system put on the market fast as possible with good features but not 100% friendly to use or complete and functional unless it must be disassembled every time.
A quick race to market with a new item must mean fast profits vs any delays to correct a completely clean and simple to use system. Sorry I smell money as the priority here. Months ago I stated take your time on this project and make it right. Does this mean to remove the kettles for cleaning means removing the temp probe cable and adding a Trojan with rubber bands on the temp probe connection? Sounds like there is no waterproof cap available to protect the probe terminals not alone the threads from mechanical damge as brass threads are easy to damage. Just had to comment my disappointment to what started out as a great idea gone to market too fast. JMO's not to start a flame war.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Double post from above, don't get me wrong the 460 is the best item on the market by far and yes one will be on my system in some future time.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Yeah, the temperature probes have a nice little compression fitting that goes around the temperature probe and is finger tightened(or a little bit more)...that comes right off, probe slides out and you can manipulate the keggle freely at that point. And it goes back in just as easy and is water tight without any messing around with teflon tape.

That means you must loosen the compression nut which compresses the rubber or soft compressable washer around the probe then remove the probe and cable feeding it before removing and cleaning the keggles everytime at the end of a brewing session. What a PITA to replace the probe with a rod of the same diameter to prevent a leak you just created by removing the temp probe hanging by the cable that's dangling while you remove the keggle to properly clean it after every use. A new system put on the market fast as possible with good features but not 100% simple friendly to use or complete and functional unless it must be disassembled every time. This will get old quick.
Was this a quick race to market for fast profits vs any added delays to correct and build a completely clean and simple to use system? Sorry I smell money as the priority here. Months ago I stated take your time on this project and make it right. This means to remove the kettles for cleaning everytime is to remove the temp probe cable then adding a Trojan with rubber band on the temp probe connection? Sounds like there is no waterproof cap available to protect the probe terminals not alone the threads from mechanical damge as brass threads are easy to damage. Just had to comment my disappointment to what started out as a great idea that's gone to market too fast. JMO's not to start a flame war.

 

[np0x]

That means you must loosen the compression nut which compresses the rubber or soft compressable washer around the probe then remove the probe and cable feeding it before removing and cleaning the keggles everytime at the end of a brewing session. What a PITA to replace the probe with a rod of the same diameter to prevent a leak you just created by removing the temp probe hanging by the cable that's dangling while you remove the keggle to properly clean it after every use. A new system put on the market fast as possible with good features but not 100% simple friendly to use or complete and functional unless it must be disassembled every time. This will get old quick.
Was this a quick race to market for fast profits vs any added delays to correct and build a completely clean and simple to use system? Sorry I smell money as the priority here. Months ago I stated take your time on this project and make it right. This means to remove the kettles for cleaning everytime is to remove the temp probe cable then adding a Trojan with rubber band on the temp probe connection? Sounds like there is no waterproof cap available to protect the probe terminals not alone the threads from mechanical damge as brass threads are easy to damage. Just had to comment my disappointment to what started out as a great idea that's gone to market too fast. JMO's not to start a flame war.

To start with there is no reason a simple electrical quick disconnect couldn't be wired into the system so there was no need to remove the thermisters, the additional resistance of any additional wire or connectors is not relevant at the 10,000 ohm level the thermisters work.

Money is not the priority here(IMHO), I am not affiliated with the maker of the unit other than to be a beta tester, the device has been thoroughly built out PRIOR to the beginning of any trials/beta testing, and he has been very quality centric in the beta testing process actively soliciting input as to how to make the unit better, easy to use and generally extensible. The level of effort being put into to make the unit is extensive AND if you don't like the temperature probes you can get from him, any other 10,000 ohm (type n i believe) temperature probe can be used instead. Additionally the design is very open so if you want to use a different probe the system has facilities to enter the relevant details into the unit so it will read the alternate thermisister accurately. (Adam can speak more intelligently to that).

I have seen other products that easily fall into the vaporware or slipshod category, I don't see that here.

The first handful of units are shipping this week and again in the spirit of quality only a small handful of units are being shipped both because of the care being put into the fabrication, and getting it right from the start.

With regards to cleaning I do clean in place unless I want to fully disassemble my brewery at which point I can (admittedly) remove the thermsisters, if I need to move any of the keggles.

Does that help at all? (hrm, rereading the above, I guess I am a bit defensive of the level of effort being put into the thing, hope I didn't offend ya! But I do mean it.)

 

[Seabee John]

Don't mean to continute to get things riled up here... But I think some of you are missing the obvious. Yes the purpose is to get a product to market quickly, after all it's not a great product that sells in the beginning, it's name recognition...or being the first on the market. The lasting effects of quality come later after there are several competitors established. Either way, that's not what I wanted to talk about... sorry for the rant.

I've got temp probes in my system, and it's very similar to the system Slnies has... hell, he helped me build it. At every point that the plumbing enters any of my vessels, I place a threaded copper union. All of my probes are "in-line" as part of the plumbing. I never need to worry about screwing up my probes, because they are not in the kettles.

 

[eccsynd]

Was this a quick race to market for fast profits vs any added delays to correct and build a completely clean and simple to use system? Sorry I smell money as the priority here.

The reason that I chose these probes is that you don't need a thermowell. They can be immersed in hot/boiling wort directly with an easy leakfree connection.

That being said, there is nothing stopping you from using a thermowell. The probes are 1/4" in diameter, not coincidentally the same as the standard thermowell inside diameter. With the thermowell installed on your system, you could remove the probe for cleaning without fear of a leaking void.

The probe housing is very rugged 304 Stainless Steel. As previously mentioned, it comes with a Brass bulkhead and compression sleeve. If you don't like Brass, please just think of the bulkhead as a nice free paperweight. Each system/brewer is different, so it would be impossible to offer every imaginable probe connection option.

Cheers!
Adam

 

[missing link]

I'm using a recirculating system today with 2 external electrical heat exchangers. My temp probes are external from my MLT and HLT. I attach to them using quick disconnects. When I disconnect, the temp probes stay with the hose and I can then clean the kegs with no fear of damage, no wires flopping around and no delicate electronics to protect. This is similar to how Lonnie wired the brutus 10.

I really want to upgrade to this system instead of using the Love controls I am using now and I plan to once the design stabilizes.

Linc

 

[p4ck37p1mp]

Pictures please! I've been trying to figure out how I'm going to rig my system once I get the bcs. I could use any help you all offer.

 

[missing link]

One question. I see one of the other testers using his to control a fermentation system. Does the PC need to stay connected in order for this to happen, or can you program the BCS, then disconnect the PC and let it do it's thing. Could you program a 5 day ferment at say 50 degrees, 1 day at 60 for a diacetyl rest, then go to 32 to lager without having the laptop connected?

Linc

 

[missing link]

Pictures please! I've been trying to figure out how I'm going to rig my system once I get the bcs. I could use any help you all offer.

I'll let somebody else post pictures. My system while very functional is not as aesthetically pleasing as others have. Do to space constraints, I am currently using a system that can be completely broken down and stored away. The drawbacks are set-up time and durability. I'm working to re-build things yet again to make set-up faster and easier.

Linc

 

[eccsynd]

Could you program a 5 day ferment at say 50 degrees, 1 day at 60 for a diacetyl rest, then go to 32 to lager without having the laptop connected?

Linc

No, the PC doesn't need to stay connected. Once its programmed and running, you can disconnect the PC and it runs stand alone.

For your fermentation process, this is a great example of using the state machine interface to program it. There are 3 points in time where the outputs are unique, so it can be programmed using 3 states:

State0 - Fermentation
Outputs = Hold at 50deg
Exit Condition = if Timer>=5days, goto State1

State1 - Diacetyl Rest
Outputs = Hold at 60deg
Exit Condition = if Timer>=1day, goto State2

State2 - Lager
Outputs = Ramp from 60 to 32 in 3days (ramp mode)
Exit Condition = None (hold here until user stops)

 

[missing link]

1 other question. Does the computer need to be connected to make changes or can a wireless card be attached somehow?

it would be interesting to be able to monitor things wirelessly.

Linc

 

[eccsynd]

The controller has a standard RJ45 Ethernet jack. Wireless to wired converters (usually branded as access points) can be easily purchased if you want wireless, they are about $50 or more, depending on options.

The computer has to be connected (directly or through a network) to make changes, there are no buttons/display on the unit itself. Your computer is the HMI. However, you could envision a state machine that used pushbuttons to control it (via the discrete inputs), so after its programmed, you didn't need the computer.. The BCS-460 will do whatever you program it to do.

Personally, I have my controller hardwired to my home network. My laptop has wireless, so it communicates via the home network wireless router to the BCS-460. My laptop is an integral part of my brewday, that way I get to surf HBT during rests/boils.. 7-segment displays are a thing of the past

 

[missing link]

Sounds good. My house is all wireless so if the BCS were hooked up to my system in the garage, my laptop would need to be in the garage also or I would need to add a wireless access point in order to control things from the house or monitor fermentation in the basement.

Either way I like the possibilities.

Linc

 

[BrewBeemer]

The reason that I chose these probes is that you don't need a thermowell. They can be immersed in hot/boiling wort directly with an easy leakfree connection.

That being said, there is nothing stopping you from using a thermowell. The probes are 1/4" in diameter, not coincidentally the same as the standard thermowell inside diameter. With the thermowell installed on your system, you could remove the probe for cleaning without fear of a leaking void.

The probe housing is very rugged 304 Stainless Steel. As previously mentioned, it comes with a Brass bulkhead and compression sleeve. If you don't like Brass, please just think of the bulkhead as a nice free paperweight. Each system/brewer is different, so it would be impossible to offer every imaginable probe connection option.

Cheers!
Adam

Adam; i'm not trying to be a chit disturber on a great product you have as i'll purchase one in the future but not at the moment as money is tight. A 460 with your temp probes so no worries about the vast amount of different probes available that you can not keep in stock, what a PITA that would be.

Question; can a RTD be used and is there a way to correct for the difference in resistance they have vs your probes?

Back to your probes with my simple idea fix that works for me.

Follow me here Adam; back in 11-10-2008 under the thread "BCS-460 Beta Test" by slnies, post reply number 4 shows the temp probe with the cable attached.

The cable is attached by a brass compression nut with knurling at half of the nut towards the cable end, it must have a rubber compressable ring or washer. This threads to the brass thread with a large nut to tighten the probe with a 1/4" NPT on to the stainless probe. A simple fix for me would be to get extra compression nuts with this knurling in the same amount as the number of probes i'll use on my system. With the bare compression nut at the knurled cable out end machine a stepped brass slug 3/16" total thickness with a step the same diameter as the cable out hole with a 1/16" step into the compression nut. Machine to the same diameter as the knurled end. Solder these thin slugs to the compression nuts making for a waterproof cap like a schrader valve stem cap. This would allow unscrewing the probe cable with knurled compression nut then adding the cap to the probe on the keggles allowing removal of the keggles for cleaning without removing the probes, any probe wires in the way plus protection for the brass probe threads that are easy to damage. This way the brew system can be taken apart completely for storage or transporting to other brewing locations.

The question I have is will your temp probe compression nuts be available so I can make these waterproof caps?
Just adding my ideas here Adam as I can taste your product but family comes first thru the holidays.
Thanks in advance as you have always had quick straight replies.
I have a spot waiting for a 460 under my rotating aluminum x-mas tree.

 

[eccsynd]

Here's a picture of a 4" probe with bulkhead removed. The wires themselves are attached directly into the probe. There's a small piece of shrink tubing to make it splash proof (not waterproof). I don't manufacture the probes, just distribute, so unfortunately I don't have access to extra compression fittings. But you get all that you see in the pic.

The BCS-460 isn't compatible with RTD sensors. Although it does measure resistance, it is tuned to achieve the maximum resolution on a 10k probe. The thermistor probes have been proven to be very affordable, accurate, and also extremely responsive.