Battle against airlock activity!

[HItransplant]

+1. Sorry for piling on here, but:



You did not learn those lessons. You learned that fermentation can take 0-72 hours to take off, as Revvy told you right at the beginning. You would have been able to speak to an experience with fast or slow fermentations if you had taken a gravity reading to diagnose your problem, but you did not. You came to a conclusion in your head about what was wrong (e.g. "must have got a slow lot of yeast") and refuse to acknowledge that the original advice telling you to relax was absolutely correct.

agree.. and, Im starting to understand Revvy's frustration....

thanks for putting up with us

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Wait... you mean to tell me that a population of living organisms didn't act exactly the same every single time?! Even with possible varying conditions such as temperature, OG, hops, nutrients available, age of yeast packet, sanitation, volume, rehydration variation, water quality, and of course random chance?!?!?!

I'm flabbergasted....

 

[Indyking]

I don't really underdand all the attacks, sarcasm and cynicism against my simple questions and concerns. I thought we are in the same boat here and supposed to help each other no matter how absurd the problem seems to you or how smart you think you are.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

But I think the problem really is how smart you think you are. Several people answered the many-layered questions you had... and I say many-layered because every time someone would answer a question sufficiently, you said "You just don't understand" and could obviously not be proven wrong. And FYI, Revvy offers excellent information that many people on here would swear by. Don't immediately shrug it off.

There is no way to reason with someone who asks advice and then tells those giving advise why they are wrong so sarcasm is the best way to get your attention.





I get it. You've used S-04 in the past and it always has, as you call it, a "strong/fast fermentation." And I'll just reiterate what I said before, sans-sarcasm: yeast are living things. There are a multitude of factors that can affect fermentation.

 

[dilbone]

dude, not trying to jump all over you here...it just seems like you asked a couple of questions(that you seemed to already have your mind made up about with the exception of oxygenating) and then refused to listen to what advice was being offered.

I've been in your shoes with a slow start, but waiting and checking gravity are the only "immediate" answers. In your case of leaving town before the 72 hrs was up then I'd probably just have pitched another packet before I left just to be safe.
Coming on and stating that you "know" x, y adn z to be true without having any quantitative evidence was probably what set people off. I'm not saying anyone has the right to be scarcastic and rude as a result...but it makes sense why this has gone this way. Acting like you know more than other people that have been doing this a lot longer than you will always start a battle of egos...

I too was told by Revvy to wait 72hrs and check gravity. That is the standard advice. BUT before I did ANYTHING I checked gravity and made sure the yeast hadn't actually started to do anything before I pitched again. This all happened while I was using a recalled packet of Notti, so I already had evidence that this yeast could be a problem and the gravity reading confirmed.

I still can't understand why you didn't take a gravity reading to see if indeed the yeast had already begun doing what they do...it would have been a simple test and given you a definitive answer as to wether or not you should pitch again before leaving town...

 

[Indyking]

But I think the problem really is how smart you think you are. Several people answered the many-layered questions you had... and I say many-layered because every time someone would answer a question sufficiently, you said "You just don't understand" and could obviously not be proven wrong. And FYI, Revvy offers excellent information that many people on here would swear by. Don't immediately shrug it off.

There is no way to reason with someone who asks advice and then tells those giving advise why they are wrong so sarcasm is the best way to get your attention.

I get it. You've used S-04 in the past and it always has, as you call it, a "strong/fast fermentation." And I'll just reiterate what I said before, sans-sarcasm: yeast are living things. There are a multitude of factors that can affect fermentation.

I never said anybody was wrong and I was right. There was not only false assumptions against me but also poor intentions. Some were and still are making fun of my problem as if there is certain superior authority we are supposed to worship no matter the circumstances...

 

[sudbuster]

I never said anybody was wrong and I was right. There was not only false assumptions against me but also poor intentions. Some were and still are making fun of my problem and if there is certain superior authority we are supposed to worship no matter the circumstances.

I think you've got the idea now. But, believe me, there is no "superior authority", only a cut and paster.

 

[Indyking]

dude, not trying to jump all over you here...

Yeah, clearly.

 

[Indyking]

I now have another problem and I would like to ask the team of "smarts" who like to make fun of "so-obvious" issues to stay away please.

Just checked the carboy after being away for 3 days...Thick well formed krausen going on and this is day 5 after pitching. By this time, I usually have the krausen gone and conditioning has long started, but since this yeast had a slower start, this might be OK. Airlock is still dead but I can tell it was bubbling sometime while I was gone because the liquid inside is displaced. My concern now is the room temp (I don't have a strip thermometer in the carboy, so don't know the wort temp). The thermometer sitting right next to the carboy is telling me that the temp is 61F right now and it was down to 59F for some time while I was gone (probably most of the time since I keep the house thermostat really down when I'm gone). Since I'm back now, the room temp where the carboy is will probably rise to 66-68F for short periods of time while I am in the house but no more than that (I don't want to waste too much energy to warm my house just because of my wort while I'm gone). I'm concerned the low temps will put the yeast in a sort of hibernation mode and not reach its full attenuation capacity, although its fermentation range according to the manufacturer is 59F-75F. Is that possible?

 

[COLObrewer]

wow . . . . I suggest forgetting about this beer for another couple weeks, then come back and check it.

 

[D0ug]

yeah, this might be one of those brews that you just need to forget about for awhile and leave in the primary for about a month.

 

[Indyking]

wow . . . . I suggest forgetting about this beer for another couple weeks, then come back and check it.

yeah, this might be one of those brews that you just need to forget about for awhile and leave in the primary for about a month.

Yeah, I think so... I usually leave it at primary for 3 weeks and don't secondary but this one will have to go a long way... I was hoping to have it fully carbonated by Xmas but I think not since I typically let it carbonate for at least 3 weeks but longer is better with my brews so far.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

The thermometer sitting right next to the carboy is telling me that the temp is 61F right now and it was down to 59F for some time while I was gone (probably most of the time since I keep the house thermostat really down when I'm gone). Since I'm back now, the room temp where the carboy is will probably rise to 66-68F for short periods of time while I am in the house but no more than that (I don't want to waste too much energy to warm my house just because of my wort while I'm gone). I'm concerned the low temps will put the yeast in a sort of hibernation mode and not reach its full attenuation capacity, although its fermentation range according to the manufacturer is 59F-75F. Is that possible?

Hey I'll make up for my previous ridiculousness with a sincere answer.

Off-flavors (esters, phenols) are usually thrown off by the yeast during the height of fermentation (use your best judgment to determine when that was and consider what temperatures it may have been at.) But what you should consider is that at the height of fermentation the temperature in the bucket/carboy may be 5 - 10*F higher than the ambient temperature.

Now with that in mind, you're probably looking at wort temperatures actually around 68-75*F (as long as I'm reading your temperature ranges properly.) This won't put it in a dormant state but probably excite them (you know, once they reproduce to a proper population size.) It's pretty typical: organisms metabolize quicker at higher temperatures.

Now, even if your wort was fermenting at the ambient temperature, let's say 62*F, that is actually ideal unless you're making a beer that calls for esters and phenols. Temperatures of low 60's ferment "cleaner" and allow you to taste malty or hoppy flavors that would otherwise be covered up by off-flavors. Some ale yeasts can even be fermenting in the 50's to produce a very clean product, like Nottingham. Just something to keep in mind.

I hope this information helped. Truce?

 

[Indyking]

Hey I'll make up for my previous ridiculousness with a sincere answer.

Off-flavors (esters, phenols) are usually thrown off by the yeast during the height of fermentation (use your best judgment to determine when that was and consider what temperatures it may have been at.) But what you should consider is that at the height of fermentation the temperature in the bucket/carboy may be 5 - 10*F higher than the ambient temperature.

Now with that in mind, you're probably looking at wort temperatures actually around 68-75*F (as long as I'm reading your temperature ranges properly.) This won't put it in a dormant state but probably excite them (you know, once they reproduce to a proper population size.) It's pretty typical: organisms metabolize quicker at higher temperatures.

Now, even if your wort was fermenting at the ambient temperature, let's say 62*F, that is actually ideal unless you're making a beer that calls for esters and phenols. Temperatures of low 60's ferment "cleaner" and allow you to taste malty or hoppy flavors that would otherwise be covered up by off-flavors. Some ale yeasts can even be fermenting in the 50's to produce a very clean product, like Nottingham. Just something to keep in mind.

I hope this information helped. Truce?

OK, thanks. I checked again this morning and nothing has changed, but it is fermenting all right. I can tell by the active movement in the krausen caused by the CO2 release. Room temp is ranging from 59 to 66F in a day cycle. Still very surprised the airlock is quiet because I thought I sealed the glass carboy really well, but I'm not concerned about it. While it is fermenting, nothing gets in anyway because the CO2 is pushing out using whatever "leak" it found. In theory, after fermentation is done during conditioning, some O2 may come in thru the leak the CO2 was using to escape but I don't think that will be enough to ruin my beer. Besides, I don't plan to age this beer anyway. One difference I have noticed from all my previous ale batches using this yeast is that the krausen looks rather clean for a high OG beer. It's just nice golden foam as opposed to all the solids that usually float in the foam in the previous batches.

 

[user 34267]

FYI, because fermentation is exothermic, you can always raise the temperature of your carboy by wrapping it in some layers of insulation (e.g. blanket, sleeping bag, etc.).

Of course, this should be done carefully because - as stated - the internal temperature of the carboy is going to be higher than the ambient temperature, and you don't want the heat to keep building to the point that it's creating off-flavors... but nonetheless, it can be useful to trap the heat that the fermentation process is creating if your ambient temps are simply too cold for the yeast.

All of the concern about the lack of/size of/look of the krausen or airlock activity could really be set aside if you just opened it and took a gravity reading. The concern of infection is really minor if you're even a little careful. I take regular gravity readings throughout my fermentation process just because I'm always interested to see how quickly the beers ferment, just requires a slight amount of care in cleaning everything.

 

[Indyking]

Just checked it again and now there is activity in the airlock... I was really intrigued by the lack of activity because, like I said before, there are little chances of leaks in glass carboys when you are sure the airlock cap was sealed well as I did in my case. I have had batches with little or no activity in the airlock using plastic pails before but not with glass carboys. Everything is quite normal now and I suspect this is going to be my best homebrew so far given the slow-paced fermentation.

So, just recapitulating:

- Amber ale (well the caramunich gave it almost a bock color for now), 3 gal batch, OG: 1072 (18 ºbrix), extract with steeping of specialty grains
- Yeast: Safale S-04, re-hydrated following manufacturer's instructions (exp Dec 2011)
- First signs of fermentation occurred not until 2 days after pitching and consisted of a very small amount of krausen, no airlock activity
- At day 5 after pitching, krausen was well formed but still no airlock activity
- At day 6 after pitching, airlock activity was first observed (bubbling every 3-6 seconds) and krausen motion is increasing
- At day 7, airlock activity has peaked showing vigorous bubbling (1 or more bubbling every second).
- At day 8, airlock activity has ceased and krausen has started to settle down.
- Room temp during fermentation kept in the range of 59-66F
- Wort temp at pitching was around 70F

Cheers!

 

[MikeRoBrew1]

Good to hear it's working. Wish I would have seen this thread earlier, but I've been reading since page two with what is hopefully seen as just another friendly helpful suggestion "JUST WAIT IT OUT! Everything will be fine."

 

[Indyking]

Updates for the fermentation timeline were added to post #76 above. Notice that peak airlock activity in this case was at 1 week after pitching, which was amazingly late! I checked other discussion blogs about Safale S-04 and there was not report of such late activities for it. Most people reported peak activity at 6-12 hours after pitching, which is what I had observed before with this yeast. Quite shocking! I’m reporting this because if people using this yeast come here for help about lack of or late activity, the results of this batch can be very helpful.

 

[jtkratzer]

I find it hard to believe your airlock activity went from balls out crazy to nothing in a period of around 24-36 hours unless a leak was created somewhere between the day you listed as peak and the following day where it ceased.

I find it hard to believe there isn't a leak. No, airlock activity isn't a sure indicator of fermentation, but if you have krausen forming, that's typically a build up of foam (read bubbles) and the pressure of all those bubbles forming on the surface of your beer/wort would increase the pressure between the surface and the top of the container.

I think that might be the source of this whole mess. You saw krausen, but no other visual signs of fermentation. And, as stated, the only true measure of fermentation is with the hydrometer.

The sooner you figure out putting the fermenter in a closet or somewhere you can't see it after pitching and leaving it alone for a few days to a week, the better. Kind of like the old saying a watched pot never boils.

I just put a batch in a carboy for the first time and I find myself checking it daily to see what it looks like and what it's doing. I just peek in the closet at it, I'm not opening the carboy and doing anything to it, but I was expecting crazy krausen and all kinds of fireworks to go on in there. When it didn't I started to wonder why "nothing" was happening. Then I thought of this thread. Just leave it alone and let it do its thing. When you suspect fermentation might be done, give the hydrometer a swim.

 

[Indyking]

I find it hard to believe your airlock activity went from balls out crazy to nothing in a period of around 24-36 hours unless a leak was created somewhere between the day you listed as peak and the following day where it ceased.

I find it hard to believe there isn't a leak. No, airlock activity isn't a sure indicator of fermentation, but if you have krausen forming, that's typically a build up of foam (read bubbles) and the pressure of all those bubbles forming on the surface of your beer/wort would increase the pressure between the surface and the top of the container.

I believe there is no leak. The fermentation in my case took a long time to start, after that it went just what I expected, has observed in the past, and was reported in other discussions for Safale S-04, that is, a 48-72 hour cycle from beginning airlock activity going to peak bubbling to rest. That's pretty typical.

Also remember this was a 3 gal batch. Smaller batches ferment faster. When I do starters in my 1-gal jug, often fermentation occurs so fast that I missed it, only knows it has occurred based on the SG readings a few hours later after pitching, so the volume of wort is a big factor. Glass carboys with a tight sealing cap are almost impossible to leak. I have had batches on plastic fermenters with no or little airlock activity but not with glass carboys.

 

[nobody]

how long have you let this sit now? i'm asking because i got tired of reading and just jumped to the end. i was letting all my brews sit for two-three weeks before. i talked with another brewer at work who has been doing it for years now and he said let it sit for at least a month in the primary. the last two brews i have done i have let sit over a month in the primary. i bottled one last night that smelled great when i pulled the lid off it. it has about 3 or 4 different hops in it and smelled just out of this world. i have another light beer to bottle today and more brewing supplies coming in off the fedex truck from midwest today.

i think i'll move away from wheat and back to just lighter beers for awhile and see what happens for myself.

 

[pj_rage]

You might want to look into a swamp cooler to stabilize the temps during fermentation. The big containers are like $5-7 at walmart or target. They are normally used here for cooling, by adding ice and or evaporation, but I've found that they also keep the temp stable at or around room temp if you don't add ice or anything. And when fermentation gets rocking, you won't get a big rise in internal temp. The temp of the swamp cooler water will change slowly even as you get relatively big swings in your ambient home air. It really seems ideal on your case. If you come home and find the water/fermentation temp too cool for your liking, you can remove some water and replace it with warm/hot tap water and swirl it around.

 

[Indyking]

You might want to look into a swamp cooler to stabilize the temps during fermentation. The big containers are like $5-7 at walmart or target. They are normally used here for cooling, by adding ice and or evaporation, but I've found that they also keep the temp stable at or around room temp if you don't add ice or anything. And when fermentation gets rocking, you won't get a big rise in internal temp. The temp of the swamp cooler water will change slowly even as you get relatively big swings in your ambient home air. It really seems ideal on your case. If you come home and find the water/fermentation temp too cool for your liking, you can remove some water and replace it with warm/hot tap water and swirl it around.

Good point, but a room temp range from 59-66F don't really change the wort temp a lot... I did not have a strip thermometer in this particular batch but the ones I had in the past showed that the actual wort temp don't change much at those given temp ranges.

 

[pj_rage]

I'm too new to draw on a lot of experience but my first batch was granted a big 1.086 beer, but with us-05 in 66F ambient, the strip (confirmed by IR) got to 74F when it was really going before I put it in the swamp cooler and I just don't want that happening again. I just want more control and to know instead of guess what's going on. I guess maybe different yeasts and gravities are different or even something as simple as having it on a cold floor vs the carpet I had could all make a difference. I was just suggesting it as a very easy and cheap way to make sure your temps are stable. (Also not in relation to your OP which seemed solved, I just saw that you say your home temp fluctuates a lot daily so keeping fermenting beer in a swamp cooler would reduce any fluctuation effects in addition to curbing any temp rise during the active fermentation). Happy brewing either way