Bad Contactor?

[cod3ck]

I’m finally in the testing phase of my Brew Panel I wired up—

When I turn the system on, the power indicator wired on the other side of the contactor coil lights up. The 240v legs on the other side of the contractor are carrying no current though (checked w/ a volt meter).

Is there something I’m missing or do I have a dud?

 

[cod3ck]

Here’s a photo for reference:

 

[cod3ck]

There’s gotta be something I’m missing here...

I’ve tried swapping out the contractors and I’m still getting no current through the downstream high voltage connection...

I also cracked one open to see if something got cooked somehow... Nothing glaring shows up:

 

[BrunDog]

Assuming there are SSRs downstream, they will leak voltage without any current flow - enough to light the LEDs. Install your elements and they won’t light.

 

[Owly055]

I’m finally in the testing phase of my Brew Panel I wired up—

When I turn the system on, the power indicator wired on the other side of the contactor coil lights up. The 240v legs on the other side of the contractor are carrying no current though (checked w/ a volt meter).

Is there something I’m missing or do I have a dud?

Do you have 240 volt coils on your contactors, 120 volt coils, or 24 volt coils? The place to start is at the coils, and verify that you have the correct voltage across each coil. Test right there when the contactor is supposed to be energized. The contactor should audibly click, and it should be quite distinct. Pull the contactors off, and examine them. It is impossible to tell from the photo if your contactor is wired correctly to the coil. If it is a 120 volt coil, you must have a hot and a neutral. If it is a 240 volt coil, you must have an L1 and an L2 to the coil. If it is a low voltage contactor such as 24 volt, you must have a positive and a negative. I've used literally hundreds of contactors and never seen one that didn't work unless it was so used that the contact were burned up. Whatever voltage the coil is, it must test at that voltage when measuring across the two coil connections or it will not work.

I would personally take the contactor off if I had doubts, and I would bench test it. I keep several 120 and 240 cords around for that sort of thing. Crimp on a space connector, hook each side up, and plug it in and see if the contactor clicks in......... VERIFY COIL VOLTAGE FIRST. If you assumed that a 240 volt contactor had a 240 volt coil, but instead it had a 120 or 24 volt coil, you've fried the coil. If you are trying to run a contactor on a lower coil voltage than it calls for, it won't work. Coil voltage should be clearly marked.

H.W.

 

[cod3ck]

Thank you both for the comments —

It’s a 120v coil which matches what I measured across the two coil contacts.

I also disconnected any downstream load so I could just verify the 240v going across. No luck on this...

All said, I never heard a click when I fired things up... I’ll try the bench test and report back

 

[cod3ck]

Bench test checked out beautifully...

 

[cod3ck]

So the power indicator light I have on the downstream side of the contactor coil...

It’s a 120v LED — could this be pulling enough power to prevent the coil from engaging?

 

[cod3ck]

Ran another test taking the switch and LED out of the equation...

Voltage runs across the contactor just fine!

This rabbit hole just got deeper, but I’m off to the races again!

Thanks again for the help!

 

[doug293cz]

Sounds like you might have wired the indicator LED in series with the contactor coil. That will not work. The LED will light up, but the contactor will not engage. Sounds exactly like what you observed. The LED needs to be wired in parallel with the contactor coil.

Brew on

 

[cod3ck]

Sounds like you might have wired the indicator LED in series with the contactor coil. That will not work. The LED will light up, but the contactor will not engage. Sounds exactly like what you observed. The LED needs to be wired in parallel with the contactor coil.

Brew on

You nailed it @doug293cz!!

 

[Owly055]

You nailed it @doug293cz!!

I've been doing electrical all my life, and it never occurred to me that someone would wire a light or anything else in series unless they were looking for a resistance............. Goes to show that one cannot assume anything when amateurs are doing wiring. (no insult intended) A schematic would have been useful, then it would have been obvious.

H.W.

 

[cod3ck]

No insult taken. I spend most of my days connecting bits, not wires [emoji13]

That said, I’ve made a point to KNOW what it takes to be safe while working with electronics (especially high voltage). The rest has been a learning journey...

Regardless, your comments are what got my wheels turning again @Owly055 — really appreciate the help!

 

[wmubronco]

Having some problems with my relays. My panel recently took a little "splash" from a water line I was installing. It had several days to dry out, however during brewday, my panel actually "powered off."

Took me about and hour and a half to bring it back to life. Had to tighten down most connections and found a few "burnt" out ends. Even went as far as to sand down the contacts on the relays, thinking maybe the old RC-car-sand-down-the-contacts trick would work. All in all, it came back to life, but seems to be intermittent with power.

For example, when I finish the boil and go to switch on the wort pump to fill my Chronical, the panel just shuts off. I know I know, I need to do some re-wiring again and clean up the ends of some of my connections, however question is...... what can I replace these old ass relays with?

This panel was bought pre-assembled, and has treated me well for about 6 brew sessions, only recently due to the "splash" it received, seems to be shorting out here and there.

220V-30A panel, runs two 120v pumps, and two 5500W elements.

Here's a few photos.

 

[doug293cz]

If turning on the wort pump switch causes the panel to "shut down", it's unlikely that one of your contactors is to blame. I'd concentrate on the wiring associated with that switch. And, what exactly do you mean by "shut down?" Are you tripping a circuit breaker or tripping the GFCI?

Brew on

 

[BrunDog]

I see rust on screws and terminals - that needs be fixed also.

 

[wmubronco]

If turning on the wort pump switch causes the panel to "shut down", it's unlikely that one of your contactors is to blame. I'd concentrate on the wiring associated with that switch. And, what exactly do you mean by "shut down?" Are you tripping a circuit breaker or tripping the GFCI?

Brew on

GFCI is not tripping in my breaker box. When I had the "shutdown," the box went completely out. The main power relay was shorted, and I could get it to half power by pressing the center down with a screwdriver. I reworked some of the connection near the top (see electrical tape), and then noticed a loose ground. During the mash, obviously both pumps were powered on. And it wasn't until later when I was transferring post boil, then when I turned on only the wort pump, that the panel shorted out again.

I see rust on screws and terminals - that needs be fixed also.

Yes, this is true. As I mentioned, the panel was used when I bought it. Previous owner said he had a certified electrician who does electrical work for restaurant kitchens wire everything up. Unfortunately he did not leave much slack in any of the wiring routes, so my quick fix here and there really made wires really tight. My to-do list (outside of the wife's), is to clean up all the wiring/connection points. Panel worked well up until it got hit with the water. The arching in current at the loose connections definitely a culprit as well.

 

[wmubronco]

Fixed a few of the connectors and cleaned up relay points. Ran a quick session using water and everything seemed to function properly without interruptions. Will brew this weekend.

 

[augiedoggy]

sounds like the relay contact points are burned and damaged... ive always had limited long term luck "cleaning" these contacts on equipment I service as the issue will likely return soon... you can find all sorts of relays to replace those... if its a 120v coil just look for a 30a dual pole relay/contactor with 120v coil... They usually run between 9-15 bucks new on ebay..

I see 2 contact points specifically that look like they seen some corrosion. especially the top right relay.. as brundog mentioned the rust of those ssr washers likely isnt helping its likely just the top surface as this point but...

its interesting that I see a superior wire terminal block in the pic not being used and the cheaper terminal blocks with crimped connectors being used instead? hard to tell from the pic but maybe the terminal block doesnt support the wire gauge or amps?

This is a good example for the conversation in another thread pointing out most 30a panels here are using 10/4 power wire which is technically a code violation since its only good for 25a with 3 power conductors as I learned yesterday.

 

[wmubronco]

You cannot truly trust work done by someone else, however taking the previous owners' word that it was build from a certified electrician, I trusted the work and when I had a family member (pro. electrician) helped me run a 220V line in the basement, his initial thoughts on the panel were a little skeptical on how old the 3 contact relays were. The top right of the 3 black relays, was the initial one getting "stuck" when the power cut out.

After cleaning everything up, and tightening down all connection points, all seems to be back to normal operation. True test would be running the panel for a long period of time on brew day.

 

[augiedoggy]

I wouldnt doubt a certified electrician might have cleaned out his old spare parts building that for a friend not expecting it to be resold and represent "official practice". a "certified electrician" is a very broad term from what I'm finding... Most specialize in certain types of work and may not keep up with the everchanging codes or have to mess with control panels and instruments beyond residential or commercial building wiring..

again, looking at the abandoned terminal blocks below and above the ssrs it appears multiple people may have built it. it likely was passed off to someone else to finish it who went a different direction they were more comfortable with.

 

[wmubronco]

Thanks for the feedback augie, cheers!