Bad beer!

[rockymountainredneck]

So I'm new to the brewing scene, I've done two batches so far, a Scottish Ale and a Coffee Stout, and BOTH of them ended up with the same absolutely awful flavor. I was meticulous in my sanitizing, followed directions to the letter and still both came out tasting very very sour. The first batch had no carbonation after several weeks in the bottles, and the second had great carbonation after 2 weeks, but the flavor made it undrinkable. I think the problem occurred in the secondary fermenter (I use a glass carboy) but I can't be sure. Any ideas on what might have caused that? Advice so I don't go 0-3? Thanks!!

 

[BlackGoat]

Hi, you'll have to provide us a ton of info. For starters, often batches made with extract can have a sour note to them (often described as a "twang"), especially depending on how and when the extract was added to the boil. Can you maybe provide the recipe you used for your Scottish Ale, then tell us brewing method, the temps you fermented at, the yeast used, how long you had it in primary/secondary and what your bottling procedure was? Also, what sanitizer are you using and how did you sanitize? Let us know exactly what the off flavor tasted like.

 

[E_Marquez]

Post the recipe ingredients.
At what temp did you ferment at?
Give a brief rundown of your procedure on the brew day.
How long did you ferment? and how did you decide it was done fermenting?

Im a far cry form a brewmaster.. but those are the kinds of questions I see get asked when a thread like yours gets started

 

[E_Marquez]

LOL.. See I told ya so......

 

[aiptasia]

Agreed. It could be a number of different things. If it's not part of your sanitation routine, it's probably something that you're overlooking or just didn't consider. The above mentioned canned liquid extract can supply that off flavor, as can a bacterial infection from acetobactir or lactobacillus.

Everything must be washed and sanitized before and after each use to ensure the best possible environment for the yeast to dominate the wort. In my case, I noticed the awful twang early on in my brewing and narrowed it down step by step. As it turns out, I was making two major brewing errors: 1) Using old liquid malt extract in cans gives beers a metallic sour twangy taste and 2) I was topping off the wort with unboiled/unsanitized tap water. It didn't take long to narrow it down.

 

[progmac]

What was your fermentation temperature?
What kind of yeast did you use?
You really should use distilled water when brewing extract.

 

[Colorowdy]

It could be tannins. Alot of kit recipes say boil the water then add steeping grains. Which is no good.

 

[Ster]

I often used canned LME and always top off with tap water.. results = yummy

 

[rockymountainredneck]

Thanks for all the replies everyone! Ok here we go:

So both were brew kits I got online. I used a packet of dry yeast (I can't remember the brand, the package was yellow) for both kits. The instructions made it pretty clear not to allow the water to boil while the grains were steeping to avoid the tannins, so I made sure it never got above 165-170 degrees. The malt used in the scottish ale was a quart plastic jug of LME and a bag of DME, and the coffee stout used a quart plastic jug of really dark dark LME. The malt was refrigerated from the time I got it until brew day in both cases. The pot I used was only a 5 gallon pot. To avoid boil-overs I only used about 3.5 gallons, so the first time (Scottish) I just topped it off with tap water. For the second (coffee stout) I boiled an extra few gallons of water in a separate pot and added that in until I got my 5 gallons. Used a leave-in sanitizer, StarSan or something like it, and dumped out as much of the sanitizer as possible. The Scottish was left in the primary bucket for 7 days and the secondary for 2 weeks. The stout sat in the primary for a bit longer, I want to say 10 days, then two weeks in the secondary. I couldn't tell you the exact temperature, probably around 70 degrees, but it was inside and stayed at a consistent temperature. No windows in the room where they were kept so there's no excessive light. The secondary was kept in the same place, but I cut a hole in one of those insulated re-usable shopping bags and made a "jacket" for the carboy. Here's one part that I have kind of suspected: in each brew there was an additive that was put in during secondary fermentation, as per the instructions from the supplier. The scottish ale had oak chips and the coffee stout, you probably guessed it...coffee. I boiled water in a clean pot for several minutes then added in the wood chips and boiled them for about 15 minutes, decanted off the water and put them in the carboy. The coffee was brewed in a regular drip style coffee maker and then poured in (6 cups). I don't know if that is where the problems have arose or not. I'm definitely going to try a more simple brew the next few times. That's about as much of the process as I can remember off the top of my head, I don't have the exact recipe but I got the kits from midwest supplies (not to bash them at all, I have no reason to believe there's anything wrong with their products) so everything was pre-measured and included in the kits. I hope that's helpful information?

 

[BigFloyd]

Thanks for the better detail. That will help us help you.

1) If the room temp where you are fermenting is 70*F, that's too warm. What's going on inside the fermenter can get 8-10*F hotter than the surrounding air. This produces off flavors. That would especially be the case if they included Nottingham dry yeast (which has a yellow packet) in these kits. It's a great yeast when used in the upper 50's to low 60's, but gets nasty above 68*F (beer temp, not air). Take some time to browse the "yeast and fermentation" section of the forum about techniques you can use to get the beer temp down into the low-mid 60's which it where the yeast will be happy.

You didn't tell us what the temp of the wort was when you pitched the yeast into it. This is important. Pitching too warm will cause bad taste. You want to get it down into the 60-65*F range. Since you're doing a partial boil, you should chill your top-off water to just above freezing. Add that to wort that has been cooled down into the 80's via an ice bath and you should be good. Check with a sanitized thermometer before pitching.

2) You don't need to secondary these kinds of beers. Leave them in the primary for three weeks and then go straight to the priming/bottling bucket.

3) If using coffee in a porter or stout, you ought to either cold brew it or simply toss a pound of beans into the primary for the last 5 days before bottling. Hot brewing it will bring out a bunch of astringent taste.

4) Try using bottled spring water (not distilled) for a batch and see how that turns out. In some places, the tap water isn't that great for brewing. If it is treated with chloramine (in addition to chlorine), you have to add 1/2 a campden tab to get rid of it. Also, if your house has a water softener, you ought not to use the tap water to brew.

Hope this helps you make a much better beer next time.

 

[progmac]

Thanks for the better detail. That will help us help you.

1) If the room temp where you are fermenting is 70*F, that's too warm. What's going on inside the fermenter can get 8-10*F hotter than the surrounding air. This produces off flavors. That would especially be the case if they included Nottingham dry yeast (which has a yellow packet) in these kits. It's a great yeast when used in the upper 50's to low 60's, but gets nasty above 68*F (beer temp, not air). Take some time to browse the "yeast and fermentation" section of the forum about techniques you can use to get the beer temp down into the low-mid 60's which it where the yeast will be happy.

You didn't tell us what the temp of the wort was when you pitched the yeast into it. This is important. Pitching too warm will cause bad taste. You want to get it down into the 60-65*F range. Since you're doing a partial boil, you should chill your top-off water to just above freezing. Add that to wort that has been cooled down into the 80's via an ice bath and you should be good. Check with a sanitized thermometer before pitching.

2) You don't need to secondary these kinds of beers. Leave them in the primary for three weeks and then go straight to the priming/bottling bucket.

3) If using coffee in a porter or stout, you ought to either cold brew it or simply toss a pound of beans into the primary for the last 5 days before bottling. Hot brewing it will bring out a bunch of astringent taste.

4) Try using bottled spring water (not distilled) for a batch and see how that turns out. In some places, the tap water isn't that great for brewing. If it is treated with chloramine (in addition to chlorine), you have to add 1/2 a campden tab to get rid of it. Also, if your house has a water softener, you ought not to use the tap water to brew.

Hope this helps you make a much better beer next time.

Good advice. Regarding the above, my understanding is that with extract you want to use distilled water because the mineral profile of the beer was set when they mashed the extract at the factory.

 

[Ster]

Everyone here is giving you very good advice.

However, I've had many great batches where I wasn't as meticulous as you. Especiallt dark beers like that. I made a great porter fermenting at 79F plus the exothermic heat.

I believe, and this is just a guess, you have outdated, stale extract.

Go brew with a kit from midwest and tell us if you have the same problems.

 

[grem135]

Everyone here is giving you very good advice.

However, I've had many great batches where I wasn't as meticulous as you. Especiallt dark beers like that. I made a great porter fermenting at 79F plus the exothermic heat.

I believe, and this is just a guess, you have outdated, stale extract.

Go brew with a kit from midwest and tell us if you have the same problems.

He stated the kits were from midwest

 

[grem135]

@BigFloyd. Great writeup, I see lots of copy/paste of that in your future.

 

[Ster]

Doh.. don't listen to me

 

[BigFloyd]

Doh.. don't listen to me

I wasn't planning to anyway once you implied that someone can successfully ferment an ale (not a saison) at 79*F ambient.

That's simply sub-par brewing practice and a sure-fire way to get some pretty nasty off-flavors as well as a good dose of fusel alcohols to give you headaches.

 

[Ster]

Your loss.

I used to brew 15 years ago before anyone taught us about these cooler temps and other modern practices. Very yummy then.. and now.

 

[rockymountainredneck]

Thanks for the advice! I will try to find a cooler place for the next batch to ferment. I did forget to mention that I used a wort chiller to cool it down, I don't remember the exact temperature but it was around 65 I believe. Thanks for the advice and I'll definitely refer to the yeast and fermentation section before I do my next one.

 

[BlackGoat]

one thing I'd echo would be the keep it simple comment. Until you nail down some of the procedures and all that kind of crap, its usually better to stick with a very simple recipe and avoid things that have extra ingredients like fruit/coffee etc. Also, when you add your extract could matter and contribute off-flavors, look up how others approach this. You can scorch the extract and get some nasty flavors from that. Good luck!

 

[Colorowdy]

Remove your brew pot from the heat sorce and stir in any extract or any other fermentable like honey.
Also a damp towel wrapped around yourand fermenter and a fan will help keep things cool. Or store your fermenter in a tote with some ice in bottles.

 

[progmac]

Your loss.

I used to brew 15 years ago before anyone taught us about these cooler temps and other modern practices. Very yummy then.. and now.

i agree that his comment was pretty rude. sharing experiences is the reason we have forums.

 

[progmac]

Thanks for the advice! I will try to find a cooler place for the next batch to ferment. I did forget to mention that I used a wort chiller to cool it down, I don't remember the exact temperature but it was around 65 I believe. Thanks for the advice and I'll definitely refer to the yeast and fermentation section before I do my next one.

if you've got 4 hours and $60, constructing a son of fermentation chamber is one of the best investments you can make in your ales.

 

[BigFloyd]

i agree that his comment was pretty rude. sharing experiences is the reason we have forums.

I wasn't trying to be rude. Sorry if it came across that way.

In a forum intended for beginner brewers, we want to help them make the best beer they can. It's hard for me to not be just a bit critical when I read misleading comments like "hey, I fermented an English ale by sticking the carboy in a 79 degree room and it turned out fine".

That sort of erroneous nonsense can give people who are just starting out (and haven't yet learned any better) the idea that they can do the same without problems. The end result is that they end up with nasty-tasting, headache-causing brew which leads them and their family/friends they shared it with to believe that homebrew simply isn't worth the effort. I've talked to more than one person who has tried brewing and then walked away from it after making a yucky batch or two due to fermenting too warm.

 

[E_Marquez]

In a forum intended for beginner brewers, we want to help them make the best beer they can. It's hard for me to not be just a bit critical when I read misleading comments like "hey, I fermented an English ale by sticking the carboy in a 79 degree room and it turned out fine".

That sort of erroneous nonsense can give people who are just starting out (and haven't yet learned any better) the idea that they can do the same without problems. The end result is that they end up with nasty-tasting, headache-causing brew.

And that would be ME The result of that bad advise..... I have 48 bottles of junk beer that was fermented at room temp, because others said the ale yeast i was using would be "ok" at 72-75 deg ambient room temp.

It made beer alright,, bad beer with fusel alcohols destroying what should have been a tasty dark brown Ale.

Floyd, thanks for helping to keep new brewers straight.
experimentation and a few almost purposely sketchy batches comes with time and experiences..
New brewers want the real deal, conservative info that will have the best chance of success.

 

[progmac]

And that would be ME The result of that bad advise..... I have 48 bottles of junk beer that was fermented at room temp, because others said the ale yeast i was using would be "ok" at 72-75 deg ambient room temp.

people say all kinds of ****, that is no reason to be snarky and rude.

at the end of the day, it is up to us to do our research and learn the state of the art

 

[kombat]

i agree that his comment was pretty rude.

[...]

people say all kinds of ****, that is no reason to be snarky and rude.

What did he say that was "snarky" or "rude?" I haven't been participating in this thread, I've just been reading along, but I didn't see anything in BigFloyd's post that was snarky or rude. Merely factual.

I wasn't planning to [listen to Ster] anyway once you implied that someone can successfully ferment an ale (not a saison) at 79*F ambient.

That's not rude - that's just common sense. Why would you take brewing advice from anyone who thinks you can ferment a beer at 79°F ambient temperature and have it turn out fine? That's nonsense and will result in virtually undrinkable beer. Therefore anyone advising such practices clearly doesn't know much about brewing good beer.

That's simply sub-par brewing practice and a sure-fire way to get some pretty nasty off-flavors as well as a good dose of fusel alcohols to give you headaches.

He's absolutely correct. When did it become "rude" or "snarky" to point out and correct bad advice? People's skin is getting a little too thin. If I were a new brewer, I'd value the blunt and concise information, without having it wrapped in a bunch of fluffy verbage to try and ensure nobody's feelings got hurt.

Bad advice is bad advice. Pointing it out isn't rude. People need to toughen up a little bit.