Back sweetening cider

[urg8rb8]

So.... I read that if you use juice with preservatives, the yeast won't be able to ferment the sugars. I also read that people are having trouble back sweetening because the yeast will dry out the back sweetened juice.

If yeast can't ferment juice with preservatives, they why can't we back sweeten with this juice? Won't this be the most convenient way to back sweeten for those that keg? What am I missing?

 

[bernardsmith]

So.... I read that if you use juice with preservatives, the yeast won't be able to ferment the sugars. I also read that people are having trouble back sweetening because the yeast will dry out the back sweetened juice.

If yeast can't ferment juice with preservatives, they why can't we back sweeten with this juice? Won't this be the most convenient way to back sweeten for those that keg? What am I missing?

I am sure that you are right but ... (and there is always a sting in the tail) but if you have made say 1 gallon of cider and the gravity of the cider is say .995 and you want to sweeten it so that it will have a gravity of say 1.005 then you need to add enough sugar to raise the gravity by .010. That may be 2 pints of apple juice. No problem... except adding two pints to 1 gallon will dilute your ABV by 20 percent. If you cider was 5 percent then the addition of this sweetener will bring it down to 4 percent. If that is not an issue then using that kind of juice to sweeten the cider is not a problem. Personally, my preference is to find ways to backsweeten without adding any significant liquor to the volume or changing the ABV - But that said, you could freeze the apple juice with preservatives and allow it to thaw , collecting only the first "run" of the thawed liquid. That liquid will be very high in sugar (and sorbate) and so you would need perhaps 1/2 - 1/3 or even less of the apple juice to sweeten the cider to the same level of sweetness

 

[urg8rb8]

I am sure that you are right but ... (and there is always a sting in the tail) but if you have made say 1 gallon of cider and the gravity of the cider is say .995 and you want to sweeten it so that it will have a gravity of say 1.005 then you need to add enough sugar to raise the gravity by .010. That may be 2 pints of apple juice. No problem... except adding two pints to 1 gallon will dilute your ABV by 20 percent. If you cider was 5 percent then the addition of this sweetener will bring it down to 4 percent. If that is not an issue then using that kind of juice to sweeten the cider is not a problem. Personally, my preference is to find ways to backsweeten without adding any significant liquor to the volume or changing the ABV - But that said, you could freeze the apple juice with preservatives and allow it to thaw , collecting only the first "run" of the thawed liquid. That liquid will be very high in sugar (and sorbate) and so you would need perhaps 1/2 - 1/3 or even less of the apple juice to sweeten the cider to the same level of sweetness

hmmm.... good point. With my last (which is also my first) batch, I fermented 4 jugs of cider (.5 gallons each). When fermentation was done, I siphoned into a keg and poured in a 5th jug of the same juice. To prevent (or at least slow down) the yeast from fermenting out the 5th jug of sugar, I put the keg in the fridge.

Next time, i'll ferment 5 jugs of the juice and then put in one frozen can of concentrate with preservatives.

I love how my first cider turned out! It tastes like champagne!

 

[Yooper]

Yeast is a really interesting organism. The way it ferments sugars to ethanol and c02 is awesome!

The thing is, the way it works has to be considered. When yeast is added to the juice, the first thing the yeast does is reproduce to get down to the business of fermentation. If you use a juice with a preservative, the yeast won't die but it won't reproduce so it can't start fermentation.

However, in an active healthy fermentation, the yeast will reproduce multiple times so there are literally hundreds of billions of them in suspension. If you add a juice with preservatives to that, the yeast don't need to reproduce so they will go ahead and ferment the new addition.

Sometimes even at the beginning, preservatives can be overcome by pitching an enormous amount of yeast, so that they don't have to reproduce.

Most preservatives are simply "yeast birth control" and inhibit yeast reproduction.

 

[urg8rb8]

Yeast is a really interesting organism. The way it ferments sugars to ethanol and c02 is awesome!

The thing is, the way it works has to be considered. When yeast is added to the juice, the first thing the yeast does is reproduce to get down to the business of fermentation. If you use a juice with a preservative, the yeast won't die but it won't reproduce so it can't start fermentation.

However, in an active healthy fermentation, the yeast will reproduce multiple times so there are literally hundreds of billions of them in suspension. If you add a juice with preservatives to that, the yeast don't need to reproduce so they will go ahead and ferment the new addition.

Sometimes even at the beginning, preservatives can be overcome by pitching an enormous amount of yeast, so that they don't have to reproduce.

Most preservatives are simply "yeast birth control" and inhibit yeast reproduction.

Interesting.

 

[mattmmille]

I bottle, instead of keg and from my perspective, I want to ferment down to around 1.010 and then bottle. That leaves enough sugar to carb, but not enough to create bottle bombs. In some cases and depending on the apples/juices used, it may come out drier or less sweet than I am aiming for. In that case, I'm going to backsweeten to taste, allow to carb while I monitor a test bottle to prevent overcarbing, and then pasteurize when the carb is right, to prevent bottle bombs.

I have seen lots of suggestions for apple juice concentrate as a backsweetener, but what I found was that most use apple juice concentrate blends from Venezuela and/or China. So, I went to a childhood favorite: Murray's Apple Cider. It's made in Roanoke, Virginia from whole apples...no additives or preservatives. It may require a little more cider than concentrate, but I don't have a problem with that. The difference is rather small. And Murray's comes in Gallon and half-gallon clear glass "growlers" that are great to re-using for fermenting! Free bonus!!!

 

[bernardsmith]

Yeast is a really interesting organism. The way it ferments sugars to ethanol and c02 is awesome!

The thing is, the way it works has to be considered. When yeast is added to the juice, the first thing the yeast does is reproduce to get down to the business of fermentation. If you use a juice with a preservative, the yeast won't die but it won't reproduce so it can't start fermentation.

However, in an active healthy fermentation, the yeast will reproduce multiple times so there are literally hundreds of billions of them in suspension. If you add a juice with preservatives to that, the yeast don't need to reproduce so they will go ahead and ferment the new addition.

Sometimes even at the beginning, preservatives can be overcome by pitching an enormous amount of yeast, so that they don't have to reproduce.

Most preservatives are simply "yeast birth control" and inhibit yeast reproduction.

Yooper, You make an excellent point - and in fact I have successfully fermented apple juice that was labeled as being preserved with sorbates precisely with the approach you mention - that is, by having a very large colony of active yeast - but I assumed that the OP's question turned not so much on whether active yeast will ferment such juice but if such preservative laced juice could be used to back sweeten. Since best practice when back sweetening, is to have removed virtually all the active yeast then there ought to be very little possibility of the remaining yeast being able to overcome the sorbate. I certainly agree that if the cider is full of active yeast then all bets are off to the particular usefulness of using sorbated juice

 

[redzeker]

I'd like to (lightly) back sweeten a cider with sucralose, yet add some fermentable sugar in order to get light carbonation without the need to pasteurize. So, my question is two-fold:

1.) What do you think a good target CO2 volume is? I'm leaning toward 1.8 or so. Too low? Just right?

2.) For those of you who have sweetened a cider with Splenda or stevia, how much did you use and was it too sweet, not sweet enough, or just right? I'm thinking of starting with 18 packets (the equivalent of 3/4c white sugar) for 5 gallons.

Bonus question: when adding something like frozen apple juice concentrate, is it acceptable to use the amount of sugar listed in the nutrition info on the label as a basis for calculation? For example, if a 12oz can of concentrate has 26g of sugar per serving and 6 servings in a can, that means the entire can has 156g of sugar...the same as if I weighed out 156g of white sugar?

 

[urg8rb8]

I'd like to (lightly) back sweeten a cider with sucralose, yet add some fermentable sugar in order to get light carbonation without the need to pasteurize. So, my question is two-fold:

1.) What do you think a good target CO2 volume is? I'm leaning toward 1.8 or so. Too low? Just right?

2.) For those of you who have sweetened a cider with Splenda or stevia, how much did you use and was it too sweet, not sweet enough, or just right? I'm thinking of starting with 18 packets (the equivalent of 3/4c white sugar) for 5 gallons.

Bonus question: when adding something like frozen apple juice concentrate, is it acceptable to use the amount of sugar listed in the nutrition info on the label as a basis for calculation? For example, if a 12oz can of concentrate has 26g of sugar per serving and 6 servings in a can, that means the entire can has 156g of sugar...the same as if I weighed out 156g of white sugar?

I have set my volumes to around 3 by force carbing it in a keg. It tastes like champagne.

 

[WVMJ]

The concentration of sorbate should just be to protect that volume of juice in the can, when you dilute your juice you dilute the sorbate, plus as Yooper mentions you already have an army of yeasts, but even if you had made it clear you are still diluting the sorbate to a point where it wont be at a high enough to probably prevent a renewed fermentation. Its always about dilution. WVMJ

 

[redzeker]

I have set my volumes to around 3 by force carbing it in a keg. It tastes like champagne.

Okay, 1.8 would be a good place to start, then. Definitely trying to avoid the champagne level of carbonation for this batch. Thanks!

 

[Weezy]

The beauty in kegging is that post fermentation additions can be done in small doses, adjusting to taste.

 

[Maylar]

I'd like to (lightly) back sweeten a cider with sucralose, yet add some fermentable sugar in order to get light carbonation without the need to pasteurize. So, my question is two-fold:

1.) What do you think a good target CO2 volume is? I'm leaning toward 1.8 or so. Too low? Just right?

2.) For those of you who have sweetened a cider with Splenda or stevia, how much did you use and was it too sweet, not sweet enough, or just right? I'm thinking of starting with 18 packets (the equivalent of 3/4c white sugar) for 5 gallons.

Bonus question: when adding something like frozen apple juice concentrate, is it acceptable to use the amount of sugar listed in the nutrition info on the label as a basis for calculation? For example, if a 12oz can of concentrate has 26g of sugar per serving and 6 servings in a can, that means the entire can has 156g of sugar...the same as if I weighed out 156g of white sugar?

1) It seems that 2 to 2-1/2 is typical.
2) I use XyloSweet (xylitol) which is an organic sugar alcohol that doesn't leave an aftertaste like synthetics do (I hate diet soda). For my tastes, 3 TBSP per gallon is all I need. Mix thoroughly and taste often.

 

[urg8rb8]

The beauty in kegging is that post fermentation additions can be done in small doses, adjusting to taste.

That's exactly what I did. I thought that the cider batch I had tasted best at high carb levels, especially since it wasn't too sweet even after I back-sweetened it.

 

[RobertTHunden]

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