Automotive evaporator / wort chiller

[BBL_Brewer]

On a mixed level, this may work, you would have to do an acid bath, then re oxidize the al to get a good coating

Why? All he should have to do is boil it in water to passivate it. That's what everyone does with their boil kettles.

 

[MaxStout]

I'll have to side with OP here. I don't see why this topic was greeted with lynch mob mentality from the start. Nothing was discussed because no one was willing to discuss it. If you don't want to use it in your beer, that's fine, but don't dismiss this as a pointless thread just because you don't have anything intelligent to contribute (and/or don't even want to entertain the idea). Sounds like he did pretty much have his mind made up, but if someone had pointed out a valid argument as to why it shouldn't be used, he probably wouldn't have bought it. It's aluminum with a little bit of zinc / tin solder. You might expect minute quantities of zinc or tin to dissolve into the beer, but where's the health risk here? Zinc is beneficial to the diet and I wouldn't expect toxic levels to be an issue. Tin, on the other hand, isn't easily absorbed by the human body and the minute quantities that might leach out should pose no health risk. The only question left unanswered is whether the composition of the materials is actually as advertised. Looks like the OP is exercising due diligence to determine just that. I don't know how effective it will be compared to a copper immersion chiller, but I'm sure the OP will let us know. Regardless, I don't see any reason to just slam the door in this guys face.

I don't think there was any "lynch mob mentality," nor did anyone "slam the door in his face." Some of us merely gave answers the OP didn't like. Disagreement happens all the time here. It's should be no big deal, unless you're overly sensitive about that sort of thing.

There was plenty discussed in this thread, ad nauseam.

 

[Dolomieu]

I'm sure he will get it to work. In the end though is it cheaper and less effort than a DIY immersion chiller. Innovation is great but I'm not seeing it.

 

[Transamguy77]

As an avid DIY'er myself and being in the automotive business myself and using quite a bit of car parts in my brewery now I'm always looking at stuff at work and thinking what can I make from this?

I have tried using an aluminum evaporator as a prechiller but the tubes are to small to flow enough to make a difference, I've also tried a copper heater core from an older GM which was better. For me PERSONALLY I would not put any car part in my wort, I understand you did your homework but what kind of environment was it manufactured in? What other chemicals were around when it was processed. It's like if you were allergic to peanuts and you can't eat them and you like sugar cookies but the sugar cookies were processed in a plant that makes peanut butter would you still eat the cookies? Is that a risk you want to take?

You can get a cheap wort chiller kit here at Coppertubingsales.com, I bought mine from them. Good luck with whatever you choose to do.

 

[VladOfTrub]

What were the load calculations and flow rate for determining that the coil will remove heat from near boiling liquid to pitching temp in 20 minutes?

 

[Facinerous]

Don't worry OP. I've had a few projects that got blasted on HBT, but I did things my way and am happy for it. I like the idea. Also, as vlad asked, what kind of flow rate do you think you will get through this little thing? What size are the inlet/outlet ports on it? When you cool the wort with it, how do you plan to have it set in the pot? Are you going to force the liquid through the fins somehow, or are you going to let the wort cool through convection?

I think your biggest limiting factor with this thing will be the convection. I'm not sure on the actual size of the thing, but the fins are spaced so closely together I don't know if you will get enough wort passing through the fins to cool efficiently. Of course if you whirlpool then that is problem solved right away.

I am interested to see how the report comes back for ya.

 

[Flboy]

Why? All he should have to do is boil it in water to passivate it. That's what everyone does with their boil kettles.

I fully agree.
Only reason I thought of acid bath was for funk. Yes, the re oxidation is a simple boil.

 

[flars]

I have been in contact with the county extension agent, who will convey the evaporator to the university for testing for lead and cadmium....... Probably next Friday. This will be the deciding factor as to weather I use this or not.

Let me point out..... again, that contact time is likely to be 20 minutes for a batch of beer....... which is considerably less than almost anything else used in brewing. Additionally that contact begins at boiling temp, and rapidly decreases to pitch temp.... reactivity of any materials is higher at higher temps, and of course is also a function of time in contact.

Let me additionally point out that zinc is an alloying metal along with tin, which is a considerably different situation than a piece of galvanized material being left in the fermenter for several weeks.

I will keep folks posted on the results................ and trials if it is worth trying.


H.W.

By the time I read this far I was already thinking of a simple test. Boil the evaporator in wort or a solution as corrosive as beer and test the wort/solution for any toxic properties.

I think new ideas are great. If it works someone will start building certified clean evaporators for ten times the price.

 

[augiedoggy]

I regret ever starting this thread............. While a few of the concerns would seem to be worth considering, most of the feedback on this is mere speculation as far as I'm concerned.

unknown alloys:

Aluminum is alloyed with a limited number of materials. Silicon, manganese, magnesium, and copper, being the only fairly common alloying elements. None of these presents a problem as far as leaching toxic materials, particularly in this kind of environment where the metal is cool, and the liquid hot...... It's hardly the environment where something is going to sit and corrode away. Contact time is brief, and would be followed by throwing the cooler in a bucket of water so it doesn't get coated with a sticky layer.......... I would do this with any wort chiller.

Solder:

An examination of what solders are used on aluminum reveals that they are composed exclusively of various percentages of tin and zinc. Sitting in a significantly acidic environment, zinc will degrade slowly. This doesn't apply to a significant extent in the wort environment, particularly due to the short time period. Tin is very stable. Zinc is an essential mineral / nutrient, and under the circumstances should pose no threat at all. Copper is also reactive......

The fact is that the contact time is extremely brief....... We aren't cooking the wort in this, or fermenting it in this. It's probably poses far less risk than the water heater elements people commonly use in RIMS systems. There are health concerns with drinking water that comes from an electric water heater. Element corrosion is a significant concern, and people are advised not to drink hot water for this reason. In addition hot water dissolves copper at a higher rate than cold water. Hot mildly acidic wort circulated through copper pipes, and heated by one of these elements should be of significantly more concern than an aluminum cooler filled with cold water laying in cooling wort for 20 minutes.

I've seen a number of photos of corroded / rusted heating elements in RIMS systems, and there are a number of threads on the subject....... I'm wondering why folks are so much more concerned seemingly about an aluminum cooler than a corroding element that obviously IS releasing metal ions into the wort???

I recently offered a link to an extremely simple schematic for an induction unit that would completely solve this problem by heating a stainless steel tube by a coil wrapped around it using induction. This would eliminate contact with anything but stainless steel, and could be operated using a PID controller. Simple, and cheap to build, it consists of a transformer, a very simple to build induction coil, two mosfets, two diodes, and a choke, a few capacitors, and two resistors. It's so simple a 12 year old could build one with no problem. (I was building transistor radios at that age). Here's the link:
http://www.rmcybernetics.com/projects/DIY_Devices/diy-induction-heater.htm

The point is that I am not reckless of safety concerns.......nor do I ignore valid legitimate concerns. A couple of people have offered something beyond knee jerk reactions, and I appreciate that input. It is true that I am going to do it regardless of what anybody says......unless someone comes up with a GOOD and INFORMED reason not to do it. My own research........ which is considerable...... on this suggests that there is absolutely no reason not to do it.

The link I gave to the brand new evaporator is for $12 and change, on Ebay is gone... because I ordered it..........

H.W.

Since you brought it up,
I mentioned a few times in other threads about how your not supposed to drink water from many tankless hot water tanks because the heat exchangers are made with chemicals/compounds that arent safe for pottable water.... I know this because I have one and I assisted in installing another brand for someone and saw the same warning label..

Almost every time I mention it someone gives me a hard time with it (mainly because logically most wouldnt think it would be the case... just like logically most would be skeptical of parts made for automotive applications.)

I dont believe it was the electric elements that were the cause of any safety concern.
hot water tanks are filled with sediment and rust after a short time and that many have something more to do with the warning than the element..

Hell people are putting magnesium and zinc anodes it their electric brew pots to try to stop the element base from rusting... in my opinion its safer to deal with wiping the tiny bit of surface rust off before brewing and dealing with whatever tiny bit makes it in your beer... otherwise your trading a tiny bit of iron for a lot more dissolved magnesium or zinc...

 

[Owly055]

Well, I for one (or two, I guess) think it's a neat idea. I'm not sure that there won't be problems, but I think it's ballsy, creative, and could potentially be very cheap and effective. Platitude: "Fortune favors the bold!"

Once concern did come to mind: what will you be cooling your wort in? Will the cooling system fit into it? If i'm picturing the right thing, they're quite a bit larger than the average brew pot. Anyway, I'd be interested in hearing about your results.

If your audacious attempts fail you (which I hope that they don't), I recently built a traditional 20' immersion chiller for less than $20. I found 20' of some very cheap, 3/8" thin-walled copper tubing at Lowes for $16. The tubing and hose-clamps cost next to nothing. (BTW, I was unable to find the same copper deal at Home Depot). I tested it out yesterday. Very effective.

Dimensions are a concern....... it may be completely impractical.......... But having handled many AC evaporators, I believe this one is not particularly large. Remember that it sits inside the dash, and will not be much larger than a heater core. Take a look at the firewall in your Voyager......... the dimensions are not large, you can see from the location of the lines where they come through. My boil kettle is a 5 gallon water bath canner... a large enamel pot..... I believe it will lay in it........but I could be wrong.

The whole thing is a bit of a gamble...........

H.W.

 

[hudsons]

Dimensions are a concern....... it may be completely impractical.......... But having handled many AC evaporators, I believe this one is not particularly large. Remember that it sits inside the dash, and will not be much larger than a heater core. Take a look at the firewall in your Voyager......... the dimensions are not large, you can see from the location of the lines where they come through. My boil kettle is a 5 gallon water bath canner... a large enamel pot..... I believe it will lay in it........but I could be wrong.

The whole thing is a bit of a gamble...........

H.W.

At 12 bucks and some change, I think it's worth a try. Keep us posted!

 

[Owly055]

By the time I read this far I was already thinking of a simple test. Boil the evaporator in wort or a solution as corrosive as beer and test the wort/solution for any toxic properties.

I think new ideas are great. If it works someone will start building certified clean evaporators for ten times the price.

Your approach is exactly what I am going to do......... I just heard back from the County Agent, and the metallurgist at the University cannot test for these metals in a solder alloy, but stated "off the record opinion" that they likely are NOT present.

That leaves me with a water testing lab as the only option....... recommended by the County agent,......... I called one within about 100 miles. They will do a test of the water specifically for the two metals for $35............ bringing the price up to where it's more than using conventional methods. However in "the interest of science", I will proceed. The tech I spoke to offered to let me know if there are any "red flags"....... something they don't ordinarily do. We discussed the test, and I proposed adding vinegar to water to above the expected PH, boiling the water, and cooling it just as would be the case with beer. The water in the boil kettle will be the source for the sample. They are testing down to parts per billion, so there is the additional concern that I don't have a baseline analysis of my well water, nor can one be sure that materials are not picked up from the boil kettle. The whole thing becomes a bit murky under the circumstances. However significant issues from any of these sources should be of concern,

In the final analysis, the fact is that I consume a great deal of untested stuff...... I eat foods, and drink liquids that are untested all the time........... My water comes from a well that I have never tested in over 20 years, it comes through plastic pipe PVC and CPVC, through faucets that are plated brass, with "rubber" washers. It runs through plastic flex hoses, etc............. I eat fruits and vegetables that are unwashed, without giving it a thought. To be really accurate and useful tests, they should be conducted in a glass container with distilled water........ In the end I want to know if lead or cadmium are being dissolved into the beer from this in quantities that are significant enough to be concerned about........... Highly unlikely.

As the lab tech pointed out, metals are NOT pure, and they often find materials not considered to be present when doing testing. Not present for manufacturing purposes means less than some percentage. That means that the hardware store flexible copper tubing without a doubt has other materials in it.......... It's a matter of tolerances. The point is that in conducting this test, I am going FAR BEYOND what anybody knows about the materials they use in brewing.........who's tested the stainless steel? or the water heater element that is corroding away? How about brass fittings? Plastics? Recently someone posted a link to a company that is making very fine stainless steel mesh brew baskets.......... What are they using to solder those together?

This is beginning to verge on the absurd.........

H.W.

 

[ImNoExpert]

Can't wait to see the test results. Although I'd be weary of using this for many of the same reasons mentioned earlier, I also know that I and everyone on this site regularly consume poisonous ethyl alcohol and methanol on a regular basis.

 

[Owly055]

I received the evaporator today............. It's too large to lay down in my pot, but it will stand up and it will sit diagonally......... It probably would work fine in a regular brew pot.........it isn't completely submerged in my little enamel pot with a max 5 gallons liquid capacity. A beautifully made very nice clean unit, the way it is designed I can see where it will be far more easily cleaned than some of the coils of a smaller size with larger more closely spaced fins. While there isn't a lot of footage of total length of pipe zig zagging through, there is a lot of surface area from the fins. The next step will be to hook it up to water...not a difficult task, and see how rapidly it can cool 5 gallons of 180 deg water to around 75-80 deg.

One thing comes to mind that is working against me in terms of efficiency..... Air is a poor conductor of heat......... water is a good one. Lots of fin area is very beneficial for air heat exchange........ but probably not so for water as heat transfer through water is fairly efficient......... Will the heat transfer through the aluminum be efficient enough to have a benefit for cooling a liquid, or will it have about the same effect as just having the tubes themselves? It's a thermodynamic consideration I hadn't thought of...........

I won't get around to testing for awhile now............. The heat exchange test will be a first priority......... If heat exchange isn't particularly good, I won't waste money on the chemical testing.......
H.W.

 

[Facinerous]

I think the heat transfer through the fins/tubes would be even more efficient in liquid than in air. In that, I think you will be surprised.

A second thing you could do, which is just an option, is cycle the wort though the exchanger and place the exchanger in an ice bath. A big tub would work well and easily fit that radiator. Of course then you would need a pump as well. Just throwing that out there as an option.

 

[ja09]

Wait, correct me if I'm wrong or am missing something here, (I am an ase certified tech) but isn't this the exact opposite of what a evaporator was designed to do?

An ac evaporator's job is to absorb heat rather than dissipate it. A condenser or radiator is similar and designed to dissipate heat, but is designed to cool liquid inside the coils (fins) via cold air flow over a large number of very small fins. An immersion wort chiller cools liquid outside of the coils via flow of cold liquid which lowers the temp of the chiller and the surrounding volume of wort.

With a wort chiller, the water temp and flow rate is the key to effective cooling. In an evaporator or radiator, the air temp and air flow is key.

Because of the extremely small fins, the liquid flow rate will be much less in an evaporator than a wort chiller. The tiny fins will instantly go from water temp to 200* without dissipating any heat at all. This is because it's the exact opposite of what it was designed to do.

It'd be like saying "screw this 25' 1/2" chiller, I'm gonna use this 100' 1/32" chiller instead" Yes it will work, but it will be extremely inefficient because it's not the right application for the job. I'm not sure where you got the 20 min estimate, I can't imagine it would chill in twice that time. You're probably better off pumping wort through the evaporator and blowing a high speed fan over the fins.

Then again i could be full of bs, so please prove me wrong if i am

 

[Hamaki]

In the heat of summer my well water is generally in the high 70s. I run it through a heater core in a bucket of ice water to pre-chill for my cfc. It gets the water down to the low 50s. Not sure how the configuration of this unit compares but I don't think a single pass of wort through my heater core alone would get me to pitching temp. If I agitated the heater core in the ice water bath, or maybe had a recirc pump moving the ice water through the fins, that would probably improve heat exchange but not sure it would make a big enough difference for single pass.

 

[Puddlethumper]

In the heat of summer my well water is generally in the high 70s. I run it through a heater core in a bucket of ice water to pre-chill for my cfc. It gets the water down to the low 50s. .

After following this thread through from beginning to end I think this last post hit a very important point. Why are you immersing the cooler with all the fins, etc, into your wort? Why not immerse the cooling fins in cold water and run the wort through the nice smooth, easy to clean copper tubing? No need to clean out the fins, etc. and you still get cooled wort.

Oh, and for the "Nervous Nellies" out there, copper is just copper ... the metal itself doesn't pay any attention to whether we called it an automotive application or a "food safe" application. Run some hot PBW through it and it is clean.

 

[augiedoggy]

I received the evaporator today.......
One thing comes to mind that is working against me in terms of efficiency..... Air is a poor conductor of heat......... water is a good one. Lots of fin area is very beneficial for air heat exchange........ but probably not so for water as heat transfer through water is fairly efficient......... Will the heat transfer through the aluminum be efficient enough to have a benefit for cooling a liquid, or will it have about the same effect as just having the tubes themselves? It's a thermodynamic consideration I hadn't thought of...........


H.W.

Hmm this sound a lot like what I tried to say in the first page of this thread.... its designed to make use of moving air for cooling not liquid...I was going to mention the difficultly in keeping it clean but figured it was a given and with a good brushing and determination (Again? why?) it would work... at the time you were being attacked enough it seemed for just conceiving this so I left it alone.

Besides I highly doubt it will be as effective as a plate chiller designed to cool liquid quickly with liquid as that is designed to cool liquid with air passing through it right? I know it will work but how well really? a 20-25ft piece of copper tubing can be found for like $25? cheaper if your already taking the junkyard approach.....

 

[augiedoggy]

Wait, correct me if I'm wrong or am missing something here, (I am an ase certified tech) but isn't this the exact opposite of what a evaporator was designed to do?

An ac evaporator's job is to absorb heat rather than dissipate it. A condenser or radiator is similar and designed to dissipate heat, but is designed to cool liquid inside the coils (fins) via cold air flow over a large number of very small fins. An immersion wort chiller cools liquid outside of the coils via flow of cold liquid which lowers the temp of the chiller and the surrounding volume of wort.

With a wort chiller, the water temp and flow rate is the key to effective cooling. In an evaporator or radiator, the air temp and air flow is key.

Because of the extremely small fins, the liquid flow rate will be much less in an evaporator than a wort chiller. The tiny fins will instantly go from water temp to 200* without dissipating any heat at all. This is because it's the exact opposite of what it was designed to do.

It'd be like saying "screw this 25' 1/2" chiller, I'm gonna use this 100' 1/32" chiller instead" Yes it will work, but it will be extremely inefficient because it's not the right application for the job. I'm not sure where you got the 20 min estimate, I can't imagine it would chill in twice that time. You're probably better off pumping wort through the evaporator and blowing a high speed fan over the fins.

Then again i could be full of bs, so please prove me wrong if i am

I would say his best approach would be to put it in an ice bath and run wort through the coil....

 

[augiedoggy]

Oh, and for the "Nervous Nellies" out there, copper is just copper ... the metal itself doesn't pay any attention to whether we called it an automotive application or a "food safe" application. Run some hot PBW through it and it is clean.

While this may sometimes be right I think it needs to be pointed out that its NOT always true...and NOT safe to assume.

As an example I work on now defunct xerox brand electrostatic plotters and what a lot of guys thought was just a copper pin array (long flat saw blade looking thing also found in electrostatic air cleaners) is really made of beryllium...

"Beryllium is alloyed with copper (2% beryllium, 98% copper) to form a wear resistant material, known as beryllium bronze, used in gyroscopes and other devices where wear resistance is important. Beryllium is alloyed with nickel (2% beryllium, 98% nickel) to make springs, spot-welding electrodes and non-sparking tools. Other beryllium alloys are used in the windshield, brake disks and other structural components of the space shuttle.

Beryllium oxide (BeO), a compound of beryllium, is used in the nuclear industry and in ceramics.

Beryllium was once known as glucinum, which means sweet, since beryllium and many of its compounds have a sugary taste. Unfortunately for the chemists that discovered this particular property, beryllium and many of its compounds are poisonous and should never be tasted or ingested."

I was told between this and the arsinic in the older drums some techs were actually getting sick from not washing thier hands properly after handling and cleaning these "pin arrays" which is done on every pm call... its also easy to cut ones hand on them while cleaning them...

I had no idea of this for years and was taking the pin arrays and drums to local salvage recycling centers prior to learning of this.

There are also special aluminum alloy compounds used in the refrigeration industry which I know of because it was worth like 6 times the scrap value of regular aluminum.

There are a lot of factors for both cost and engineering reasons that we the average Joe cant assume to take for granted as they DO sustitute and use different qualities of metals for different applications often.... I have learned this form many of my customers who are often in the engineering and manufacturing industries... especially when it comes to alloys like aluminum and magnesium. but there are different grades of brass and bronze and copperand some have much higher amounts of lead and other heavy metals or compounds than others. for example the copper tubing many use for immersion chillers is different when its sold for HVAC versus for water lines... some of it is a copper alloy mixed with other metals to make is more flexable and cheaper as well as give it insulation properties in some cases.... Even the Guy at the local LHBS knew this. this is one reason why some IC chillers work better than others.

look at plastic piping... pvc is not safe for mashtuns CPVC is.... if one didnt know this they often would "Assume" they are both fine to use. water pipe is water pipe right?....wrong . Will it kill you likely not but it could effect your health and more importantly to some here, your BEER!.
clear cheaper grade water bottles vs PET bottles.... Yes they are different even though they are both plastic and used for the same thing...We could go on all day.

BTW puddlethumper,
You should no this more than anyone since you live in the unique area of California where much of the stuff deemed safe for the rest of the world is outlawed there first as a testrun before the effects are further explored and eventually those rules often apply to the other states. after they work out the cost vs health effects and such..

The lead free brass fittings mandated at your home depot are not at all the same ones you can always find in other states.... same with powertools cars and just about everything else.

 

[Puddlethumper]

While this may sometimes be right I think it needs to be pointed out that its NOT always true...and NOT safe to assume.

.

Excellent post and excellent points.

My concern with his scheme was his idea of dunking the entire cooler, fins and all, directly into the beer, hence the recommendation to not do that. I am also concerned that trying to clean this contraption after dunking it in the wort would become a nightmare in a very short time.

A safer approach (although admittedly still with some issues) would be to move the beer through the tubing and immerse the cooling unit into chilled water. The wort is exposed only to the copper tubing instead of all the other stuff that might be in the cooling fins, etc.

Now we only need be concerned with the chemical composition of the copper tubing within the cooler + (what occurred to me as I slept on this) whatever type of solder was used to assemble the unit. And in the examination of the many soldered joints in one of these units we may find a very legitimate health risk.

As far as the copper tube itself, yes, copper does come in different alloys. But those alloys have more to do with durability and production considerations. None of the materials commonly used as an alloy in the production of common copper tube and pipe are considered harmful. Copper tubing is not sold in a "food grade" vs."non-food grade" like plastics and other materials.

Here's a link to an earlier thread on this subject:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/copper-pipe-foodgrade-65468/index2.html

BTW, copper is an element on the periodic tables. If they add much of anything to it you no longer have copper. You have another alloy such as bronze or brass.

Cheers!

 

[ja09]

I would say his best approach would be to put it in an ice bath and run wort through the coil....

Exactly. He would essentially be creating a giant plate chiller. I would personally never use a cheap, most likely Chinese made automotive part in my boil or anywhere else in my process, but that's just me. Don't they find lead in cereal over there?

 

[Owly055]

Wait, correct me if I'm wrong or am missing something here, (I am an ase certified tech) but isn't this the exact opposite of what a evaporator was designed to do?

An ac evaporator's job is to absorb heat rather than dissipate it. A condenser or radiator is similar and designed to dissipate heat, but is designed to cool liquid inside the coils (fins) via cold air flow over a large number of very small fins. An immersion wort chiller cools liquid outside of the coils via flow of cold liquid which lowers the temp of the chiller and the surrounding volume of wort.

With a wort chiller, the water temp and flow rate is the key to effective cooling. In an evaporator or radiator, the air temp and air flow is key.

Because of the extremely small fins, the liquid flow rate will be much less in an evaporator than a wort chiller. The tiny fins will instantly go from water temp to 200* without dissipating any heat at all. This is because it's the exact opposite of what it was designed to do.

It'd be like saying "screw this 25' 1/2" chiller, I'm gonna use this 100' 1/32" chiller instead" Yes it will work, but it will be extremely inefficient because it's not the right application for the job. I'm not sure where you got the 20 min estimate, I can't imagine it would chill in twice that time. You're probably better off pumping wort through the evaporator and blowing a high speed fan over the fins.

Then again i could be full of bs, so please prove me wrong if i am

Dissipating or absorbing heat.......... it's all the same. You have two substances at different temperatures. You want maximum contact between the two without actually mixing. The heat exchanger is merely a way to maximize that contact. Which way the heat is flowing isn't particularly relevant. The thermal properties of the two fluids is, as is the temperature differential. The thermal properties of water and of wort are going to be similar, the water being inherently better at heat transfer, so the wort needs to be on the outside where the fins are, and the water on the inside. An evaporator and a condenser are differently, primarily due to their operating environment and location / configuration. I have a truck for example that has a condenser that looks very much more like an evaporator than a condenser. The reason being it's location, and the fact that it has an electric fan.

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

Excellent post and excellent points.

My concern with his scheme was his idea of dunking the entire cooler, fins and all, directly into the beer, hence the recommendation to not do that. I am also concerned that trying to clean this contraption after dunking it in the wort would become a nightmare in a very short time.

A safer approach (although admittedly still with some issues) would be to move the beer through the tubing and immerse the cooling unit into chilled water. The wort is exposed only to the copper tubing instead of all the other stuff that might be in the cooling fins, etc.

Now we only need be concerned with the chemical composition of the copper tubing within the cooler + (what occurred to me as I slept on this) whatever type of solder was used to assemble the unit. And in the examination of the many soldered joints in one of these units we may find a very legitimate health risk.

As far as the copper tube itself, yes, copper does come in different alloys. But those alloys have more to do with durability and production considerations. None of the materials commonly used as an alloy in the production of common copper tube and pipe are considered harmful. Copper tubing is not sold in a "food grade" vs."non-food grade" like plastics and other materials.

Here's a link to an earlier thread on this subject:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/copper-pipe-foodgrade-65468/index2.html

BTW, copper is an element on the periodic tables. If they add much of anything to it you no longer have copper. You have another alloy such as bronze or brass.

Cheers!

I don't understand the concern with cleaning.......... This is not a thick closely vaned evaporator. It is pretty open. Wort is sticky with sugar, but the solution is simply to drop it in a tub of pure water and leave it to soak for awhile........ as soon as it's removed. It can then go in the dishwasher if one felt it necessary......... Pump through the interior, and you have no way of seeing if it's clean or not.....

H.W.

 

[Puddlethumper]

I don't understand the concern with cleaning.......... This is not a thick closely vaned evaporator. It is pretty open. Wort is sticky with sugar, but the solution is simply to drop it in a tub of pure water and leave it to soak for awhile........ as soon as it's removed. It can then go in the dishwasher if one felt it necessary......... Pump through the interior, and you have no way of seeing if it's clean or not.....

H.W.

If you've used a simple copper tubing immersion chiller I'm sure you've noticed the film of sticky wort that is on that tubing when you pull it out. Even on a smooth surface such as that tubing the sticky doesn't come off completely without a soak in PBW or similar.

Now introduce a device with all the nooks and crannies where the fins meet the cooling tubes. Are all of those solder joints perfectly tight and free of pits where debris, bacteria, etc. can hide? And yes, you can soak it in hot wort to pasteurize it before starting the cooling phase. But I don't think it is going to be, over the long term, a very satisfactory or sanitary arrangement.

And in answer to your concern about cleaning there are established procedures for cleaning the insides of tubing. It is done all the time as CIP procedure for counterflow chillers.

 

[BBL_Brewer]

If you've used a simple copper tubing immersion chiller I'm sure you've noticed the film of sticky wort that is on that tubing when you pull it out. Even on a smooth surface such as that tubing the sticky doesn't come off completely without a soak in PBW or similar.

Now introduce a device with all the nooks and crannies where the fins meet the cooling tubes. Are all of those solder joints perfectly tight and free of pits where debris, bacteria, etc. can hide? And yes, you can soak it in hot wort to pasteurize it before starting the cooling phase. But I don't think it is going to be, over the long term, a very satisfactory or sanitary arrangement.

And in answer to your concern about cleaning there are established procedures for cleaning the insides of tubing. It is done all the time as CIP procedure for counterflow chillers.

All I've ever done is spay my immersions with hot water to clean them. Wort rinses right off if you get to it before it dries. Hops are a different story. Leaf hops are a total, major, freaking PITA.

 

[Puddlethumper]

Hops are a different story. Leaf hops are a total, major, freaking PITA.

OK, so imagine all the hops trub down inside those fins glued on with sticky wort.

 

[augiedoggy]

Exactly. He would essentially be creating a giant plate chiller. I would personally never use a cheap, most likely Chinese made automotive part in my boil or anywhere else in my process, but that's just me. Don't they find lead in cereal over there?

Lol funny you should say that.... here in the states they spray all the vitimans and minerals onto the cereal when its stripped during manufacturing.... you can stick a magnet in a bowl of total cereal floating in milk and the cereal is attracted to it from the added iron.
We put spray so much artificial vitiman minerals and other substances in our cereal you would need a doctors perscription to get it if it was sold in Canada..

 

[Owly055]

While your points are good, I think we need to put this in perspective..... We are not leaving a chiller in wort more than perhaps 20 minutes to half an hour. The wort is only mildly acidic, nor is it likely that the metals used are highly reactive. The wort starts out at perhaps 180F, and quickly drops to room temp, while the metal in the chiller is relatively cooler. It isn't an environment conducive to significant reactions, nor is the time in that environment very significant. I personally don't know of anybody who leaves the chiller in the wort for a month......... do you? What metal ions might be transferred to the wort in that half hour are likely to be measurable in parts per billion.... far too low to be significant.

H.W.

While this may sometimes be right I think it needs to be pointed out that its NOT always true...and NOT safe to assume.

As an example I work on now defunct xerox brand electrostatic plotters and what a lot of guys thought was just a copper pin array (long flat saw blade looking thing also found in electrostatic air cleaners) is really made of beryllium...

"Beryllium is alloyed with copper (2% beryllium, 98% copper) to form a wear resistant material, known as beryllium bronze, used in gyroscopes and other devices where wear resistance is important. Beryllium is alloyed with nickel (2% beryllium, 98% nickel) to make springs, spot-welding electrodes and non-sparking tools. Other beryllium alloys are used in the windshield, brake disks and other structural components of the space shuttle.

Beryllium oxide (BeO), a compound of beryllium, is used in the nuclear industry and in ceramics.

Beryllium was once known as glucinum, which means sweet, since beryllium and many of its compounds have a sugary taste. Unfortunately for the chemists that discovered this particular property, beryllium and many of its compounds are poisonous and should never be tasted or ingested."

I was told between this and the arsinic in the older drums some techs were actually getting sick from not washing thier hands properly after handling and cleaning these "pin arrays" which is done on every pm call... its also easy to cut ones hand on them while cleaning them...

I had no idea of this for years and was taking the pin arrays and drums to local salvage recycling centers prior to learning of this.

There are also special aluminum alloy compounds used in the refrigeration industry which I know of because it was worth like 6 times the scrap value of regular aluminum.

There are a lot of factors for both cost and engineering reasons that we the average Joe cant assume to take for granted as they DO sustitute and use different qualities of metals for different applications often.... I have learned this form many of my customers who are often in the engineering and manufacturing industries... especially when it comes to alloys like aluminum and magnesium. but there are different grades of brass and bronze and copperand some have much higher amounts of lead and other heavy metals or compounds than others. for example the copper tubing many use for immersion chillers is different when its sold for HVAC versus for water lines... some of it is a copper alloy mixed with other metals to make is more flexable and cheaper as well as give it insulation properties in some cases.... Even the Guy at the local LHBS knew this. this is one reason why some IC chillers work better than others.

look at plastic piping... pvc is not safe for mashtuns CPVC is.... if one didnt know this they often would "Assume" they are both fine to use. water pipe is water pipe right?....wrong . Will it kill you likely not but it could effect your health and more importantly to some here, your BEER!.
clear cheaper grade water bottles vs PET bottles.... Yes they are different even though they are both plastic and used for the same thing...We could go on all day.

BTW puddlethumper,
You should no this more than anyone since you live in the unique area of California where much of the stuff deemed safe for the rest of the world is outlawed there first as a testrun before the effects are further explored and eventually those rules often apply to the other states. after they work out the cost vs health effects and such..

The lead free brass fittings mandated at your home depot are not at all the same ones you can always find in other states.... same with powertools cars and just about everything else.