Automotive evaporator / wort chiller

[Owly055]

I don't have a wort chiller yet......... I use a snowbank, and soon that will not be an option for another season ;-) .................. It dawned on me that I probably have something that would work, but as it turns out I don't. What I'm thinking of is a small automotive air conditioning evaporator. Multiple thin plates in a tight array usually, it would be very easy to plumb water into one, and drop the whole thing into your wort. Cleaned externally, they should pose no health issues, as they are soldered using a zinc / tin solder with no lead in it. The evaporator is the aluminum unit in the dash that sits near the heater. It has refrigerant and oil in the internal passages, but only air outside. There is a huge cooling fin area which if submerged in hot wort while water is passing through the interior, would rapidly cool your wort down. There are thousands if not millions of them in junk yards, probably available for little more than scrap aluminum price.

A bit of reading on solder used for aluminum confirms that lead is NOT used, only various percentages of tin and zinc. You should be able to clean the external surfaces in the dish washer.............. Cheap and simple. I'm going to find one next time I get somewhere where there is a salvage yard........


Howard

 

[illinoisbrassman]

Personally I would stick with a copper or stainless coil. They really aren't all that expensive. I really don't think I would want a used car part in contact with my beer. Epically one that potentially housed leaking freon and Ac oil

 

[Owly055]

Personally I would stick with a copper or stainless coil. They really aren't all that expensive. I really don't think I would want a used car part in contact with my beer. Epically one that potentially housed leaking freon and Ac oil

I personally, having worked on vehicles most of my life, don't share your concerns. Evaporators rarely leak........usually it is a seal somewhere, and it is easy to leak test something like this. Immersion time will be very brief, so corrosion is a non-issue. My only concerns would be lead and cadmium, both of which can be tested for with inexpensive test swabs. I have no reason to believe that either of these toxic materials would be found in an evaporator as they are not normally used for joining aluminum.

In most urban areas of the country each town is drinking water containing the waster stream from the town above, and depends on treatment of the inlet and outlet......I don't hear anybody raising cain about that.............. Cleaning / sanitation are not difficult.

I found a thread from several years back where someone was using a window air conditioner with the evaporator set in his wort..... to save water. An interesting and innovative idea.

H.W.

 

[Bobby_M]

It's obvious you're going to do it no matter what concerns are posted so it would be a waste of time suggesting otherwise.

 

[Owly055]

It's obvious you're going to do it no matter what concerns are posted so it would be a waste of time suggesting otherwise.

Bobby:
No matter what you come up with or plan, there will always be those who will throw up cautions and concerns, some valid, some not. I didn't toss this idea out without doing some research....... Note that I not only checked to see what kind of construction an evaporator uses / what kind of solder........... AND located testing products to test for potentially toxic materials. The objection in the previous post amounted to Yuck!! I wouldn't use something out of a car............ I welcome input that is useful........ ignore input that is not. I don't intend to abandon an idea because someone says "yuck".

I don't think you are being fair in your comment......... Give me a valid concern, and I'll listen........... look for a solution, or drop the idea. I'm NOT closed minded as you seem to think.

H.W.

 

[day_trippr]

How are you going to clean this evaporator when it's coated with wort?
I doubt aluminum is going to be happy with the usual cleaning agents.

I suppose you could just rinse it off then commit to boiling it near the end of the next batch, but that approach always sounds nasty to me...

Cheers!

 

[Airplanedoc]

It's obvious you're going to do it no matter what concerns are posted so it would be a waste of time suggesting otherwise.

I'm with brassman and bobby.

1. Who knows what the base material actually is, or how pure the aluminum actually is.
2. Solder again who knows.
3. How are you going to clean it.
4. Who knows what has worked nastiness has worked itself into the metal, that might just come out when it boils
5. What are you going to do with the discharge water, that now has CFC and oil residue mixed with it.

I'm sure we are not the only people thinking "Yuck". if it were a great idea, I would guess others would have thought of and done it a long time ago. Maybe they did and are just not around to talk about it.

But like bobby_m said, it sounds like you are going to do it regardless of any wisdom of ours. So good luck.

 

[ScottG58]

I am not a metallurgist. I remember seeing threads where aluminum pots can create a metalic taste if the pot is not conditioned by boiling water in it. Not sure how to clean it after use.

 

[b-boy]

I think you could probably build an IC for not much more than what you'll pay for an evaporator from a junkyard. Personally, I wouldn't take a chance.

Copper pipe is deigned to be around water and I have a pretty good idea of where and how it was made. It's been used in brewing for centuries. If I'm introducing it into my food chain I want to know where it came from and what it's been exposed to. Auto parts would make me very nervous.

Just my opinion.

 

[MaxStout]

Very few "aluminum" items are pure aluminum. It is likely alloyed with other metals to make it more robust, resistant to corrosion by coolant, etc. It's a pig-in-a-poke, and who knows what metals will come in contact with (and perhaps dissolve into) your wort.

You came up with a novel and creative idea. However, I think the risks are too great to follow through with it. As b-boy mentioned, you could build an immersion chiller for about what you would sink into the evaporator. A 20' roll of 1/2" annealed copper tubing, 2 hose clamps and a length of plastic tubing are about all you need to build a basic IC.

 

[k1ngl1ves]

Nah. I'd probably use a heater core... if I wanted to use an automotive part. They're usually copper, with aluminum or copper fins. If aluminum, just boil it for an hour or so.

 

[Owly055]

Very few "aluminum" items are pure aluminum. It is likely alloyed with other metals to make it more robust, resistant to corrosion by coolant, etc. It's a pig-in-a-poke, and who knows what metals will come in contact with (and perhaps dissolve into) your wort.

You came up with a novel and creative idea. However, I think the risks are too great to follow through with it. As b-boy mentioned, you could build an immersion chiller for about what you would sink into the evaporator. A 20' roll of 1/2" annealed copper tubing, 2 hose clamps and a length of plastic tubing are about all you need to build a basic IC.

I am not nearly as concerned about alloys as you are....... being a welder with considerable experience with metalurgy and very familiar with aluminum and it's alloys........ The same things can be said of any common metal....... stainless steel for example.

I found a company on Ebay that offers brand new evaporators for the Voyager mini van family for $12.52 and free shipping. Take a look: http://tinyurl.com/nvt7luf

Note that this unit could easily be put in the dishwasher for cleaning, and hoses could easily be attached. It's going to sit in your wort for what?? 20 minutes?? The idea that it is going to insidiously leach toxins into your wort, slowly poisoning you seems a bit unrealistic to me. Remember that we are running water through it, not wort. Hot wort contacting the cold aluminum surface is not exactly an environment where corrosion is going to be a serious issue. I strongly doubt that you could buy 20' of copper tubing for $12.52..... At that price, I'm going to order one and try it

H.W.

 

[Hamaki]

I am not nearly as concerned about alloys as you are....... being a welder with considerable experience with metalurgy and very familiar with aluminum and it's alloys........ The same things can be said of any common metal....... stainless steel for example.

I found a company on Ebay that offers brand new evaporators for the Voyager mini van family for $12.52 and free shipping. Take a look: http://tinyurl.com/nvt7luf

Note that this unit could easily be put in the dishwasher for cleaning, and hoses could easily be attached. It's going to sit in your wort for what?? 20 minutes?? The idea that it is going to insidiously leach toxins into your wort, slowly poisoning you seems a bit unrealistic to me. Remember that we are running water through it, not wort. Hot wort contacting the cold aluminum surface is not exactly an environment where corrosion is going to be a serious issue. I strongly doubt that you could buy 20' of copper tubing for $12.52..... At that price, I'm going to order one and try it

H.W.

Link says that unit is sold and all others offered are over $100?!? Not sure how good a deal this might be but I'm with Bobby, etc. I use a heater core in a bucket of ice water to prechill for my cfc (thanks for the design, Bobby!) but I'm not confident enough in what materials probably are or should be in a car part to put it in contact with a hot, slightly acid solution I want to drink later, but you do what you want.

 

[day_trippr]

Right, then. Have at it.

Cheers! (Moving along, never was anything to discuss here...)

 

[augiedoggy]

I understand what the OP was asking for.... someone with some actual possible insite as to why it wouldnt work... not just guessing and assuming...Nothing wrong with that.

That said,
I myself would not try it... too many possible things can go wrong... hell if they put mercury in the toothpaste and lead in kids toys god knows what they would stick it the metal in that thing to dispose of it?...

Besides I highly doubt it will be as effective as a plate chiller designed to cool liquid quickly with liquid as that is designed to cool liquid with air passing through it right? I know it will work but how well really? a 20-25ft piece of copper tubing can be found for like $25? cheaper if your already taking the junkyard approach...just go to a junkyard with campers in it... I scrapped one once at my cabin and it was full of 3/8 copper tubing for water and propane lines...

 

[MaxStout]

He's going to do it, regardless of what anyone says. Let him.

Nothing to see here...move along.

 

[Owly055]

I regret ever starting this thread............. While a few of the concerns would seem to be worth considering, most of the feedback on this is mere speculation as far as I'm concerned.

unknown alloys:

Aluminum is alloyed with a limited number of materials. Silicon, manganese, magnesium, and copper, being the only fairly common alloying elements. None of these presents a problem as far as leaching toxic materials, particularly in this kind of environment where the metal is cool, and the liquid hot...... It's hardly the environment where something is going to sit and corrode away. Contact time is brief, and would be followed by throwing the cooler in a bucket of water so it doesn't get coated with a sticky layer.......... I would do this with any wort chiller.

Solder:

An examination of what solders are used on aluminum reveals that they are composed exclusively of various percentages of tin and zinc. Sitting in a significantly acidic environment, zinc will degrade slowly. This doesn't apply to a significant extent in the wort environment, particularly due to the short time period. Tin is very stable. Zinc is an essential mineral / nutrient, and under the circumstances should pose no threat at all. Copper is also reactive......

The fact is that the contact time is extremely brief....... We aren't cooking the wort in this, or fermenting it in this. It's probably poses far less risk than the water heater elements people commonly use in RIMS systems. There are health concerns with drinking water that comes from an electric water heater. Element corrosion is a significant concern, and people are advised not to drink hot water for this reason. In addition hot water dissolves copper at a higher rate than cold water. Hot mildly acidic wort circulated through copper pipes, and heated by one of these elements should be of significantly more concern than an aluminum cooler filled with cold water laying in cooling wort for 20 minutes.

I've seen a number of photos of corroded / rusted heating elements in RIMS systems, and there are a number of threads on the subject....... I'm wondering why folks are so much more concerned seemingly about an aluminum cooler than a corroding element that obviously IS releasing metal ions into the wort???

I recently offered a link to an extremely simple schematic for an induction unit that would completely solve this problem by heating a stainless steel tube by a coil wrapped around it using induction. This would eliminate contact with anything but stainless steel, and could be operated using a PID controller. Simple, and cheap to build, it consists of a transformer, a very simple to build induction coil, two mosfets, two diodes, and a choke, a few capacitors, and two resistors. It's so simple a 12 year old could build one with no problem. (I was building transistor radios at that age). Here's the link:
http://www.rmcybernetics.com/projects/DIY_Devices/diy-induction-heater.htm

The point is that I am not reckless of safety concerns.......nor do I ignore valid legitimate concerns. A couple of people have offered something beyond knee jerk reactions, and I appreciate that input. It is true that I am going to do it regardless of what anybody says......unless someone comes up with a GOOD and INFORMED reason not to do it. My own research........ which is considerable...... on this suggests that there is absolutely no reason not to do it.

The link I gave to the brand new evaporator is for $12 and change, on Ebay is gone... because I ordered it..........

H.W.

 

[masonsjax]

Every so often someone proposes this idea or one very similar. The consensus is always the same. A copper immersion chiller can be made for $30-50 and you'll know exactly what you're getting. A car part could potentially be dangerous or taint your beer with weird flavors, no one can say for certain because it was not designed to be food safe and therefore probably uses materials chosen for their durability and ease/cost of manufacture.

Also, there's a whole thread on here recently about not using zinc in applications that will touch wort.

[edit] I just noticed that you bought the part. Nevermind. Bobby was right.

 

[hudsons]

Well, I for one (or two, I guess) think it's a neat idea. I'm not sure that there won't be problems, but I think it's ballsy, creative, and could potentially be very cheap and effective. Platitude: "Fortune favors the bold!"

Once concern did come to mind: what will you be cooling your wort in? Will the cooling system fit into it? If i'm picturing the right thing, they're quite a bit larger than the average brew pot. Anyway, I'd be interested in hearing about your results.

If your audacious attempts fail you (which I hope that they don't), I recently built a traditional 20' immersion chiller for less than $20. I found 20' of some very cheap, 3/8" thin-walled copper tubing at Lowes for $16. The tubing and hose-clamps cost next to nothing. (BTW, I was unable to find the same copper deal at Home Depot). I tested it out yesterday. Very effective.

 

[Owly055]

I have been in contact with the county extension agent, who will convey the evaporator to the university for testing for lead and cadmium....... Probably next Friday. This will be the deciding factor as to weather I use this or not.

Let me point out..... again, that contact time is likely to be 20 minutes for a batch of beer....... which is considerably less than almost anything else used in brewing. Additionally that contact begins at boiling temp, and rapidly decreases to pitch temp.... reactivity of any materials is higher at higher temps, and of course is also a function of time in contact.

Let me additionally point out that zinc is an alloying metal along with tin, which is a considerably different situation than a piece of galvanized material being left in the fermenter for several weeks.

I will keep folks posted on the results................ and trials if it is worth trying.


H.W.

 

[bja]

I regret ever starting this thread............. While a few of the concerns would seem to be worth considering, most of the feedback on this is mere speculation as far as I'm concerned.

People are afraid of what they don't understand.

 

[Bobby_M]

The only think I was observing was the tendency for people to post ideas that are contrary to popular belief knowing damn well that they are going to follow through with it. That's fine with me. It sounds like you're going to test for dangerous metals before using it. Great. Use the thing in a few batches and report back on how well it works and post pictures of it.

 

[b-boy]

I don't think anyone is afraid of anything. I think people are just trying to urge caution. It sounds like the OP is pretty well versed metals and knows where to go to have things tested. Since he's planning on doing this I will definitely follow the progress.

I personally like the idea of using something like this. If it were for sale on a website and labeled 'Food Safe' I'd probably consider buying one. At least I'd take a closer look.

 

[BBL_Brewer]

I'll have to side with OP here. I don't see why this topic was greeted with lynch mob mentality from the start. Nothing was discussed because no one was willing to discuss it. If you don't want to use it in your beer, that's fine, but don't dismiss this as a pointless thread just because you don't have anything intelligent to contribute (and/or don't even want to entertain the idea). Sounds like he did pretty much have his mind made up, but if someone had pointed out a valid argument as to why it shouldn't be used, he probably wouldn't have bought it. It's aluminum with a little bit of zinc / tin solder. You might expect minute quantities of zinc or tin to dissolve into the beer, but where's the health risk here? Zinc is beneficial to the diet and I wouldn't expect toxic levels to be an issue. Tin, on the other hand, isn't easily absorbed by the human body and the minute quantities that might leach out should pose no health risk. The only question left unanswered is whether the composition of the materials is actually as advertised. Looks like the OP is exercising due diligence to determine just that. I don't know how effective it will be compared to a copper immersion chiller, but I'm sure the OP will let us know. Regardless, I don't see any reason to just slam the door in this guys face.

 

[Airplanedoc]

I'll have to side with OP here. I don't see why this topic was greeted with lynch mob mentality from the start.

In the original post he was going to get a ac coil out of a scrap yard.

I simply posted that for the price of a cheap coil I would stick with copper or stainless, which are commonly used and considered safe. Suddenly I am a ******* and because I offered no imperial evidence as to why a used ac component from a auto scrapyard is a bad idea when a immersion coil is pretty cheap.

Bobby_m simply stated that it was clear the op was going to do this anyway..

It seems to me the the op was the one who turned the thread into a "lynchmob" by his openly hostile reaction to anyone who suggested a point of view that did not agree with his want to use a used ac coil from a auto scrap yard. Since none of us have a lab to determine the food safety of a used auto part we are apparently not allowed to offer opinions.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[nutty_gnome]

I haven't held one of these radiators. But I'm curious if they are same thickness you might find on the back of a window air-conditioner? If so, are the fins as easy to dent and ding?

 

[seabass07]

This does not make sense price-wise when scrap copper can be had for very cheap, but it's an interesting idea. While people seem to think you're ignoring advice, it looks to me like you are listening and taking steps to ensure you aren't doing anything dangerous. Post up how this works!

 

[Flboy]

"Cleaned externally, they should pose no health issues, as they are soldered using a zinc / tin solder with no lead in it."
OMG, zink??
Kidding, still bleeding from that one!
On a mixed level, this may work, you would have to do an acid bath, then re oxidize the al to get a good coating

 

[Dolomieu]

Geez, i just dip my balls in ice water and then into the wort. Back and forth. I know it's not conventional but most of the feedback I've gotten on this is mere speculation as far as I'm concerned. I mean people are afraid of what they don't understand. Apparently they don't understand the thermo dynamics of my balls. F'em right.

BTW i'm looking for someone to try some of my beer. There is this odd off flavor in my beers. I know it's not the water as i filter it through my urinary tract. It's odd and accompanied by a bit of sweaty ball aroma. I'll pay for shipping.

Sorry for hi-jacking you thread OP :cross:

 

[brew_ny]

Geez, i just dip my balls in ice water and then into the wort. Back and forth. I know it's not conventional but most of the feedback I've gotten on this is mere speculation as far as I'm concerned. I mean people are afraid of what they don't understand. Apparently they don't understand the thermo dynamics of my balls. F'em right.

BTW i'm looking for someone to try some of my beer. There is this odd off flavor in my beers. I know it's not the water as i filter it through my urinary tract. It's odd and accompanied by a bit of sweaty ball aroma. I'll pay for shipping.

Sorry for hi-jacking you thread OP :cross:

hate to see this edited away