Auberins EZboil for Step Mashing Only.

[petesgalaxy]

Hi all. I know the EZ Boil PID discussions are usually in the electric brewing section, but I am not an electric brewer.
I have a single tier, 3 vessel, 2 pump, propane system with a herms coil in the HLT. I want to automate my step mash process
using the EZ Boil. I will not be using this for boil control, mash only. Has anyone here done this? I'm looking for what everyone here thinks about this idea.

 

[quantumguy]

I don't know about the EZ Boil, but Blichmann's BrewCommander has a propane version.

 

[Deadalus]

Do you already have a controller for your system or are you starting from scratch? I'm currently wiring EZ Boils into my EHERMS panel so I have the manual at hand. I just looked over the Blichman BrewCommander since I'm unfamiliar with a gas controller. Basically that controller is turning on the gas with a solenoid. The spark and flame are then controlled through the Sparkbox. The EZboil controls element power through a solid state relay. The EZboil has two "alarms" that can control other equipment besides a buzzer, like pumps. So the the EZboil might be able to control the on off for the gas solenoid, and through the alarm1 function control the Sparkbox. I think it would depend on how much communication there is betweeen the BC and Sparkbox. There are only two pins for each alarm so the EZBoil is just turning on or off. I don't know if it's temperature control is geared towards electrical. A regular PID can work with flame but I don't know here about the EZBoil.

 

[petesgalaxy]

I already have control for everything including the propane burner. I will only be using it for auto stepping the mash, using the existing controller for HLT burner. i have a PID controlling it now, It's just not smart and I have to manually step it. I want to be able to program it and do other stuff while it mashes.

 

[Deadalus]

Let me preface this with saying I am a novice regarding electric control panels. I can follow diagrams (mostly) and make small changes but I couldn't design one from scratch.


Which PID do you have? It sounds like you might be able to swap it in since you have the PID already in there. I'm swapping out an Inkbird PID on my HLT and my BK power controller. I have to add in some relays but that's because I am using the alarm circuits to run the pumps. You'd need to do that too if you'd like to automate the pumps. There's a diagram in the manual, includes the relay model number. I have a 3V 2P EHERMS. Your 1 EZ Boil could control both pumps. But if you wanted to control the wort pump manually later, you will need to modify your wiring a little further than the EZ boil manual describes. I replaced my wort pump on off with a 3 position NO, NC, NO switch. So ON w EZ Boil, OFF, ON just manually. Could be other ways to do that. You could for instance unplug the pump and plug in to an outlet. You could include an on off step in the program to use the pump after mashing, there's a way to accept user input, hold or something similar. I also haven't fully programmed it. I don't think you'd run out of steps but not 100% certain. I sometimes use the pump to CIP my jocket box and unitanks so I wanted a switch. If you have an alarm circuit tied to the mash temperature, I think you would have to lose that to run both pumps off the one EZ Boil.

What I don't know is how your flame is monitored. The PID I am replacing is very similar in terms of terminals and functioning.

 

[petesgalaxy]

That's what I'm going to do is swap out the SYL-2362 with the EZ Boil. The flame is already controlled by a solenoid with spark igniter. The PID monitors the temp. It should be easy. Then I can just program the step mash and be free to do other stuff.

 

[Bobby_M]

The DSPR series (EZboil)of controllers are not suitable for long cycle time control that a gas solenoid requires. When the unit starts approaching the programmed temp set point, it will cycle the output rapidly in short pulses. Not only that, they use SSR control output rather than mechanical relays. I think this would be better:
https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=1111

 

[Deadalus]

The DSPR series (EZboil)of controllers are not suitable for long cycle time control that a gas solenoid requires. When the unit starts approaching the programmed temp set point, it will cycle the output rapidly in short pulses. Not only that, they use SSR control output rather than mechanical relays. I think this would be better:
https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=1111

That was going to be one of my next questions. My Inkbird (ITC106) cycles power on and off quickly at times and I was wondering if that was happening with the flame control, where I think that's not considered good.

Also what voltage the solenoid was accepting for control output. My SSRs accept 3-32VDC. The DSPR320 has control output of 12 VDC. That Auburn SYL-2362 mentions using the J2 relay pins to control solenoids, not the SSR pins.

 

[doug293cz]

To reiterate what @Bobby_M said, the EZBoils are not suitable for controlling anything but an SSR which is switching a resistive (electric heating element.) The output pulse width is too short and the modulation frequency is too high to drive anything mechanical - like a relay or solenoid.

Brew on

 

[petesgalaxy]

I'm using a SYL-2362 now and it works fine. I thought the EZ Boil only did that quick switching in boil mode, not mash mode.

 

[petesgalaxy]

From Auberin website.

EZboil controller selection guide for Three-Vessel brewing systems
Three EZboils can be used for three-vessel brewing systems, which can not only provide precise temperature control, but also a professional look for the symmetric fronts. Different EZboils can be used for different vessels:

Hot Liquor Tank (HLT): EZboil DSPR320 is recommended for step mashing. For single infusion mashing, DSPR300 is recommended.

Mash Tun (MT): One thermometer is needed for MT. For HERMS system, DSPR120 is recommended (similar price to standard PID, similar look to other EZboils). If you need to use external alarms for MT, you can use DSPR300. For two channel readout thermometer, SYL-2802 is recommended.

Boil Kettle (BK): DSPR300 is recommended. If you need multi-event timer for adding different hops, DSPR320 is recommended.

 

[Deadalus]

I'm using a SYL-2362 now and it works fine. I thought the EZ Boil only did that quick switching in boil mode, not mash mode.

Your current 2362 has two options for the control output. One to a SSR the other to your solenoid on the J2 relay pins. It knows it's controlling a solenoid when it ramps up the temp. It's not using its SSR output. The DSPR320 just has control output to an SSR. The alarm relays could control a solenoid but the brain of the 320 isn't sending control signals to the alarms. Seems like Auburn knows this is an issue and built that option into the 2362 but it's not there it seems in the 320.

 

[doug293cz]

I thought the EZ Boil only did that quick switching in boil mode, not mash mode.

The way I interpret the manuals is that the EZBoils only have a single modulation mode, and that is the fast cycle one. It is much superior for electric heating, but useless for other heating methods (direct fire, steam.)

Brew on

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm using a SYL-2362 now and it works fine. I thought the EZ Boil only did that quick switching in boil mode, not mash mode.

Nope, it does the same thing in both modes which is why it's so desirable for fully electric systems.

From Auberin website.

EZboil controller selection guide for Three-Vessel brewing systems
Three EZboils can be used for three-vessel brewing systems, which can not only provide precise temperature control, but also a professional look for the symmetric fronts. Different EZboils can be used for different vessels:

Hot Liquor Tank (HLT): EZboil DSPR320 is recommended for step mashing. For single infusion mashing, DSPR300 is recommended.

Mash Tun (MT): One thermometer is needed for MT. For HERMS system, DSPR120 is recommended (similar price to standard PID, similar look to other EZboils). If you need to use external alarms for MT, you can use DSPR300. For two channel readout thermometer, SYL-2802 is recommended.

Boil Kettle (BK): DSPR300 is recommended. If you need multi-event timer for adding different hops, DSPR320 is recommended.

Everything Auber wrote above is in regard to an electrically heated system, not direct fire.

The DSPR modules are SSR control only via 12VDC signals, but even if the control logic were suitable for gas valves, you'd need to use external mechanical relays to modulate your gas valve 24VDC circuits. In other words, they don't have dry contact relays built in like your SYL-2362 does.

Trust me, you're wasting your energy trying to vet the product for your project. It's not the right fit.

Unsolicited advice. Convert to all electric and improve your life by 87%.

 

[Broken Crow]

Have you considered going hybrid?... It sounds like you really want the programabilty of the Auber DSPR320, an awesome unit I really love, which BTW; can perform just as well at maintaining and ramping temps at 120V with an extension cord on a RIMS tube. A little more cost outlay for the upgrade, but it'll get you the programability you want.

 

[petesgalaxy]

Ok, the DSPR320 in addition to the R30A mini power relay will get it working. You setup ALM1 to relay mode, mash only mode, and tell it what steps to work on. All I need is the 120v output to power the solenoid and transformer on the spark box. I don't like the higher price, but the 320 has the ext. alarm outputs.
This can work.
https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=250
https://www.auberins.com/images/Manual/DSPR320_manual.pdf

Also, this is an existing system. The HLT is on a PID now, but I have to manually step it up. the PID controls the burner. I'm just swapping out the PIDs.

 

[Deadalus]

I don't think you are recognizing that the control circuit is where the unit is applying the algorithm to maintain the temperature, not the alarm circuit. The PID, which BTW the acronym comes directly from the mathematical approach Proportional-Integral-Derivative, is using probe data and rates of temperature change to better modulate the temperature (simplified description). On off signals sent to the alarm circuit are going to be part of the user program. I didn't think there are any program steps in the EZ Boil to let the unit know it's operating a gas solenoid for a burner on the alarm circuit. Your current unit does have that option, which is why it works for gas. It has that J2 relay as an option OR an SSR.

And as a side note, I don't think the EZ Boils are using the PID algorithm, I think I've seen they are using something else claimed to be better for adjusting the temperature. Technically not a PID.

 

[petesgalaxy]

I don't think you are recognizing that the control circuit is where the unit is applying the algorithm to maintain the temperature, not the alarm circuit. The PID, which BTW the acronym comes directly from the mathematical approach Proportional-Integral-Derivative, is using probe data and rates of temperature change to better modulate the temperature (simplified description). On off signals sent to the alarm circuit are going to be part of the user program. I didn't think there are any program steps in the EZ Boil to let the unit know it's operating a gas solenoid for a burner on the alarm circuit. Your current unit does have that option, which is why it works for gas. It has that J2 relay as an option OR an SSR.

And as a side note, I don't think the EZ Boils are using the PID algorithm, I think I've seen they are using something else claimed to be better for adjusting the temperature. Technically not a PID.

I get what you're saying. Which is why I dug deeper into the setup and found it can control an external pump using the added relay.
We all know there's really only one way to find out for certain. I have ordered the parts and giving it a try. Then we'll all know if it actually works or not. I will report the findings back here. It'll take me a few weeks to get it done. But, I will say, after reading the comments from you all here, I did do a price workup
to build an electric 240v all in one system. For the one I want it's going to be around $2000. I don't have the money for that. If someone in a brew club here offers me $2000 for my three vessel system, then it's a done deal. I'll go electric. Hey everybody, thanks for your input.

 

[Bobby_M]

I don't think you are recognizing that the control circuit is where the unit is applying the algorithm to maintain the temperature, not the alarm circuit. The PID, which BTW the acronym comes directly from the mathematical approach Proportional-Integral-Derivative, is using probe data and rates of temperature change to better modulate the temperature (simplified description). On off signals sent to the alarm circuit are going to be part of the user program. I didn't think there are any program steps in the EZ Boil to let the unit know it's operating a gas solenoid for a burner on the alarm circuit. Your current unit does have that option, which is why it works for gas. It has that J2 relay as an option OR an SSR.

And as a side note, I don't think the EZ Boils are using the PID algorithm, I think I've seen they are using something else claimed to be better for adjusting the temperature. Technically not a PID.

In fairness to the OP, I really had not previous dug too deeply into the alarm section of the DSPR320 manual. I never really had a use for it. After reading more, it looks like his plan will work. It will close the ALM1 relay contacts for any number of conditions. Relay mode "HEAT" seems like the right option.

There are a few nuance parameters in that section that have to be programmed just right for this to work:

rL = HEAT
rRG = Mash
LGC = rL-C

Now, it won't behave like a PID but more like a on/off controller but that's what a non-proportional gas valve system is anyway.

 

[Deadalus]

I get what you're saying. Which is why I dug deeper into the setup and found it can control an external pump using the added relay.
We all know there's really only one way to find out for certain. I have ordered the parts and giving it a try. Then we'll all know if it actually works or not. I will report the findings back here. It'll take me a few weeks to get it done. But, I will say, after reading the comments from you all here, I did do a price workup
to build an electric 240v all in one system. For the one I want it's going to be around $2000. I don't have the money for that. If someone in a brew club here offers me $2000 for my three vessel system, then it's a done deal. I'll go electric. Hey everybody, thanks for your input.

I told you it could run a pump in my first post and how it would do it. I am literally wiring mine right now with 4 pump relays. Plus I said it could probably run the solenoid that way too. You never mentioned what you had for a solenoid, but your 2362 can run a low power solenoid and if you had a need for a relay in front of it, you'd have it there already. But again, you didn't give the full details for me to be 95.0%. I would have thought your current PID was actually performing in some way as a PID. But if it just turns on and off, without it thinking about where the temperature is at and headed to it does appear the EZ Boil can mimic that. I was simply thinking you had some current PID benefit you might be losing. My apologies for trying to help you not waste money and prevent possibly ruining your existing equipment.

 

[petesgalaxy]

I told you it could run a pump in my first post and how it would do it. I am literally wiring mine right now with 4 pump relays. Plus I said it could probably run the solenoid that way too. You never mentioned what you had for a solenoid, but your 2362 can run a low power solenoid and if you had a need for a relay in front of it, you'd have it there already. But again, you didn't give the full details for me to be 95.0%. I would have thought your current PID was actually performing in some way as a PID. But if it just turns on and off, without it thinking about where the temperature is at and headed to it does appear the EZ Boil can mimic that. I was simply thinking you had some current PID benefit you might be losing. My apologies for trying to help you not waste money and prevent possibly ruining your existing equipment.

No apology needed. Like I said in my previous reply, I get what you're saying. And you're right. I guess I didn't go into enough detail of my existing system.
The PID is just controlling the on/off of the HLT burner based on temp. Looking at the diagram on this page it suggests using the R30A power relay and it should work.
https://www.auberins.com/images/Manual/DSPR320_manual.pdf

 

[doug293cz]

No apology needed. Like I said in my previous reply, I get what you're saying. And you're right. I guess I didn't go into enough detail of my existing system.
The PID is just controlling the on/off of the HLT burner based on temp. Looking at the diagram on this page it suggests using the R30A power relay and it should work.
https://www.auberins.com/images/Manual/DSPR320_manual.pdf

The R30A relay is rated for 30A, which is way more than you need to drive a solenoid. It will work, but then so will any garden variety 5A - 10A relay. Depending on the drive current required by your gas solenoid, you might be able to drive it directly from the DSPR's alarm relay. The internal relays are rated for 1A inductive (a solenoid coil is an inductive load), so if your solenoid coil is rated at less than 0.5A, you should have an adequate safely margin.

Brew on

 

[petesgalaxy]

Well, here's an update. I got the dspr320 temp wired in my control box. All seems to work as far as the wiring goes, but that's about all. The relay will fire the burner and the spark igniter as it should. The problem is when I set the relay to Heat, it fires up and heats to the set temp, shuts off, and never comes back on again. If I set to EXTN, which is like ALL, it fires and never shuts off, EVER. You have to manually stop it. No other settings work, they will not fire the burner at all. I think this relay is designed to turn on a pump or some other device and run it till the entire process is done and it hits END, then it will shut off. Not the outcome I was hoping for, but now I know. Thanks everyone for the input.

 

[Deadalus]

I just finished wiring mine. I will be running a test program soon if I see any programming that might help I will report back.

 

[petesgalaxy]

I just finished wiring mine. I will be running a test program soon if I see any programming that might help I will report back.

Thanks, I'll be watching. Also, I believe you said you had an electric system, so it should work fine for you.

 

[Deadalus]

Write out your program steps and possibly any system parameters you gave set. I'm looking at the RELY section. This might be the wrong logic but HEAT activates the relay during ramp-up sections. So if switching from mash step where heating to next mash step say hold it may turn off. Still working out a program. I will need to get my laptop as the screen is too small on my phone to properly view the pdf.

 

[Deadalus]

You have to use the relp (relay programming) feature. Pg 8 in the manual. It allows you to specify the step the relay works during. It's somewhat complicated but requires a binary calculation to indicate the steps. There's a link to a calculator. I understand binary but will need to try it out. It looks like it is feeding in a regular base 10 number, like you normally use, to indicate the binary string that the program recognizes to determine which steps the relay is operational for. It's perfectly fine if you don't follow that, many won't. On the other hand, you may be a math whiz and coder. I have to program the water pump to recirculate and the mash pump as well once the correct mash temps are reached so I will get it figured out. Still reading though...

 

[Deadalus]

Just wanted to mention this as well, there is a pulse setting for 1-100 seconds in the relay section. Is 100 seconds too short an interval to turn off and on your burner? I am speculating it might be useful perhaps.

 

[Bobby_M]

what do you have these set to?
There are a few nuance parameters in that section that have to be programmed just right for this to work:

rL = HEAT
rRG = Mash
LGC = rL-C

 

[Deadalus]

what do you have these set to?
There are a few nuance parameters in that section that have to be programmed just right for this to work:

rL = HEAT
rRG = Mash
LGC = rL-C

I think rL=Alam is needed. It would need dh and dl values to set it. Deviations high and low. Maybe just dl. The deviation gets added or subtracted like hysteresis (see Figure 18). So if the mash sv is 148, the burner would fire up to 148 (that's the ramp) but then if the temp drops to 146 during a 30 hold, the burner needs to fire again. 2 is the smallest value since the smallest hysteresis is 1 and also 1 for the dL and dH. That's why I think ALAM is needed, not HEAT. Mash is exact for rRG but the default ALL would work too. rL-C is the default but good to check too.