Attention new all grain brewers!

[Ryanh1801]

Good point yuri, I went down 20% in efficiency when I brewed with my LHBS grains instead of AHB. Which sucks cause I hate having to order grains, when I want to brew I want to be able to drive 10 miles and get the stuff. Im going to have to talk to my old roommate and see if he can machine me one of those mills, like you did. Yours looks very nice. Im too cheap to spend close to 200 on a mill.

 

[FlyGuy]

See also this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=30670

It looks like Axegood might be on to a cheap DIY mill.

 

[Waldo]

No. What I stated is correct. You want to use about 1/2 gallon per pound of grain for sparging. If you have a big brew, say 16 pounds of grain, you will be looking at 8 gallons of sparge water. With a brew that big you will be looking at roughly 10 gallons of wort in the brew kettle which equates to LOTS of boiling to get it down to a 5 1/2 gallon batch.

I don't recommend over sparging just to increase your efficiency, sure it works but you will also pick up a lot of husky grainy flavors and run the risk of tannin extraction. I think most people sparge to achieve a pre determined amount of wort in the kettle and then boil for a set time of 60, 90, 120 minutes depending on style.
For example, I do 90 minute boils, I am locked in at 80% efficiency, I do 6.5 gallon batches. I know that I need 8.75 gallons of wort in the brew kettle to end up with 6.5 gallons post boil, I use however much grain I need to achieve the desired OG based on these known numbers.

 

[FlyGuy]

For example, I do 90 minute boils, I am locked in at 80% efficiency, I do 6.5 gallon batches. I know that I need 8.75 gallons of wort in the brew kettle to end up with 6.5 gallons post boil, I use however much grain I need to achieve the desired OG based on these known numbers.

Except that your efficiency is based on the amount of sparge water relative to the grainbill. Larger grainbills = higher sugar concentrations = greater sparging requirements.

So, if you fix your water at 8.75 gallons for all brews, then how can you 'lock in' at 80% efficiency, particularly for a high gravity brew? Does that make sense? The only way I can see this work is if you modify your grainbill to compensate. Otherwise, when you make big modifications to your grainbill, the efficiency should vary somewhat (e.g., it will be lower for a 15 lb grainbill than it would for a 10 lb grainbill).

Anyways, don't mean to hijack this thread. This topic is already being discussed here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=30724

 

[Waldo]

My efficiency doesn't start to suffer until the grain bill gets above 17 pounds, at 16 pounds I may lose a point or two but I usually just adjust by shooting for 2 points higher on the OG.

You did see where I said for example? That was just an example of an average sized beer, I guess you also missed the part where I said "60, 90 or 120 minute boils depending on style" big beers generally get longer boils but a 16 pound grain bill shouldn't need to be boiled for 2 hours just to get a higher efficiency.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Good point yuri, I went down 20% in efficiency when I brewed with my LHBS grains instead of AHB. Which sucks cause I hate having to order grains, when I want to brew I want to be able to drive 10 miles and get the stuff. Im going to have to talk to my old roommate and see if he can machine me one of those mills, like you did. Yours looks very nice. Im too cheap to spend close to 200 on a mill.

I went to walmart, but was unsuccessful locating these. A bicycle shop may be a better bet.

When I was a wee lad, kids put "pegs" on the rear axle of the bike so you could stand on the back and do tricks or take an extra passenger.

Well... I was thinking the knurling on those pegs would be just about perfect for a grain mill/crusher.

Eventually, I got lazy and just bought one, but with the pegs, a drill and some angle iron, you might be able to rig something up with a minimum of tools.

 

[carnevoodoo]

So if you're shooting for a high efficiency and you end up sparging with say 7-8 gallons of water, is it necessary that you add it to the boil immediately, or can you add it as your pot starts to boil off? I basically would just have something like 8 gallons boiling with a 2 gallon reserve I'd add over time just to make sure there was room in the kettle.

I have a 42 quart pot and I really doubt that I am going to want to sit around while boiling 10.5 gallons down to 5.5 so I'll probably just take the efficiency hit when I take the step to all grain and want to make a bigger beer, but I'm wondering if that's acceptable.

Thanks.

 

[FlyGuy]

My efficiency doesn't start to suffer until the grain bill gets above 17 pounds, at 16 pounds I may lose a point or two but I usually just adjust by shooting for 2 points higher on the OG.

You did see where I said for example? That was just an example of an average sized beer, I guess you also missed the part where I said "60, 90 or 120 minute boils depending on style" big beers generally get longer boils but a 16 pound grain bill shouldn't need to be boiled for 2 hours just to get a higher efficiency.

Yep, gotcha! I was just seeking clarification -- thanks. So you are in fact modifying the amount you sparge/run-off, and compensate by modifying the length of the boil to get back to a fixed final volume, right?

 

[Waldo]

Yep, gotcha! I was just seeking clarification -- thanks. So you are in fact modifying the amount you sparge/run-off, and compensate by modifying the length of the boil to get back to a fixed final volume, right?

Yes indeed, I have profiles for 90 minute and 120 minute boils I use 90 minute boils for almost everything, really big beers and Scottish Ales get the 120 minute boil. I guess what got me with the orininal post was when he recommended collecting 10 gallons of wort for a 16 pound grain bill, just seemed like overkill on the sparging.

 

[Turkeyfoot Jr.]

I'm brewing two batches this weekend for the specific purpose of sorting out my efficiency issues. Reading through this really helped by I have one question still.

If I'm using the correct volume of water how much does it matter if it's in the strike or sparge? I'm brewing two batches of beer this weekend to work out some efficiency issues. In one batch I'm going for a 1.5:1 quart/pound ratio for the mash and according to Beersmith I'd use the same ratio for my sparge to reach my desired boil volume. In the other batch I'm going for a 2:1 ratio and once again it works out that my strike and sparge volumes are almost identical. The two batches have different amounts of grain so that I could keep the volumes of water the same and get the biggest boil I can manage.

So, would it be better to keep things as they are or to drop the mash ratio in each batch by a bit and increase the sparge by the same amount? From reading this thread it sounds like most people are doing a smaller mash ratio and a larger sparge ratio but is that really necessary as long as the same amount of water is used in total?

 

[JamesKY]

Even though I haven't done an AG batch yet, I would recommend doing a dry run (pun intended) first. Go through all the steps and motions to make sure that you will have everything that you need. Then when it comes time to do the real deal, you won't have as many surprises.

 

[Kai]

2. Heat your strike water about 2 or 3 degrees above your target temp, pour the water into the tun, and let the temp drop to your target. By the time you reach your strike temp, the tun should be conditioned and when the grains are mixed in you will hit your desired mash temp and it will hold longer.

I hope this helps for you first timers or even folks who are struggling with AG brewing.

Hi. I've done one AG batch so far and plan on doing my second tomorrow. I have a lot of bugs to iron out before I nail down a steady efficiency (not the least of which are the tender loving caresses my LHBS's mill gives my grain instead of grinding it).

On hitting temperatures: am I correct to understand, then, that you're putting the water in first and adding the grain on top of that? Awesome.

This is a great thread. When I do finally get the hang of this AG thing, it's going to be all thanks to you guys.

Kai

 

[98EXL]

what do you guys use to measure water amounts accurately?

 

[Orfy]

A 2 litre jug or a marked bucket

 

[njnear76]

I haven't done an All Grain yet, but I'm working on a script which will generate directions specific to the recipe you are using. Check it out here. I researched a bit to gather all the information. The calculations seem right. The only problem is that I probably have many spelling errors. There's a reason why I write software for a living. Heh.

 

[Kai]

what do you guys use to measure water amounts accurately?

I have my spoon marked at gallon increments, so I just stick the handle into my brewpot.

By the way - I did my second all grain batch today, and with with the tips from this thread (and Bobby_M's double-sparge thread) we gained 12 points to 72% on an LHBS crush with undoctored water. Thanks!

 

[njnear76]

That is good information. I never thought of that. I wonder why that happens?

I can see how the temperature of the grains will throw the calculations off slightly for a 10 gallon batch.

 

[boo boo]

If I'm using the correct volume of water how much does it matter if it's in the strike or sparge?
From reading this thread it sounds like most people are doing a smaller mash ratio and a larger sparge ratio but is that really necessary as long as the same amount of water is used in total?

Too much strike water will dilute the mash so your enzymes will take a lot longer to convert. In extreme cases it will let your mash not convert fully.

Also your sparge is designed to rinse sugar out of the wort. Not enough sparge water will leave a lot of sugar in your wort.
That's a waste.

 

[BierMuncher]

what do you guys use to measure water amounts accurately?

Depending on the size, I used two very sophisticated calibration systems to hit volumes exactly.

When I did five gallon batches I used this one:



When I move to 10 gallon batches, I upgraded to this system:

 

[Kaiser]

Too much strike water will dilute the mash so your enzymes will take a lot longer to convert. In extreme cases it will let your mash not convert fully.

Yes, but you need quite a lot of strike water. I mostly mash with about 1.5 - 2 qts/lb which is considered a fairly thin mash.

Kai

 

[boo boo]

Yes, but you need quite a lot of strike water. I mostly mash with about 1.5 - 2 qts/lb which is considered a fairly thin mash.

Kai

I mash thicker than that, about 1.2 quarts per pound, because of the limitations of my 5 gallon mash tun when using 12 pounds of grain.

 

[gkeusch]

Nicely done. I sure wish I had read this before my first try. What an abortion that was!

 

[rhag1128]

First off... I wouldn't be an AG brewer without the support of this group. Thanks to all. All the info for first time AG people in this post is right on. I applied many of these techniques and rules of thumb / calculations and they produced helped me produce the best IIPA and RIS in my 11 years of brewing. Heres where I had my problems and learned from them:

Set up: 10 gal round with stainless false bottom. 20# grain bill - crushed.
Issue 1-
False bottom let too much grain by, Causing a clog in my line. slow/stuck sparge.
Next time: Copper manifold with stainless braid over copper.
Issue 2-
Used hops plugs and pellets in boil My advice - Use hops sock or other hop containment method. Also had grain as well as hops attempting to flow into my plate chiller.
Next time : Hops sock and bazooka type screen drain.
Issue 3- Sparge: Performed a batch sparge and it worked fine. Next time I will attempt fly sparging with some 60 mesh nylon screen above grain bed with sparge water flow thru screen.
I did not worry about pH or measure efficiency the first time. I wanted to understand timing and the mechanics of the process first. Next time I will start filling out my log sheet.
One last thing - make sure you have plenty of hot water ready for your steps that need water of a certain temp. Get a good propane burner 150K btu at least.

Time to search for a good McEwans scotch ale recepie. Thanks all

Randy

 

[98EXL]

I'm still not understanding why the wort tastes sweet sometimes right before I pitch....it baffles me.

 

[PseudoChef]

I'm still not understanding why the wort tastes sweet sometimes right before I pitch....it baffles me.

Because there's a ton of sugar (simply put) in the wort. Fermentation occurs because yeast convert sugar to ethanol and CO2.

EDIT: I think I am seeing sarcasm now. Teh Intraweb!

 

[Hermish]

I haven't done an All Grain yet, but I'm working on a script which will generate directions specific to the recipe you are using. Check it out here. I researched a bit to gather all the information. The calculations seem right. The only problem is that I probably have many spelling errors. There's a reason why I write software for a living. Heh.

I didn't see anyone comment on this web page, but it seems like some real good information to me. Good for what to do if you run into any problems along the way that need to be corrected.

 

[njnear76]

I didn't see anyone comment on this web page, but it seems like some real good information to me. Good for what to do if you run into any problems along the way that need to be corrected.

Thanks for the shout-out. I actually moved the directions/calculator to here and corrected some errors. I had a problem printing from the geocities site, because of their advertisement scheme.

Mike

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm brewing two batches this weekend for the specific purpose of sorting out my efficiency issues. Reading through this really helped by I have one question still.

If I'm using the correct volume of water how much does it matter if it's in the strike or sparge? I'm brewing two batches of beer this weekend to work out some efficiency issues. In one batch I'm going for a 1.5:1 quart/pound ratio for the mash and according to Beersmith I'd use the same ratio for my sparge to reach my desired boil volume. In the other batch I'm going for a 2:1 ratio and once again it works out that my strike and sparge volumes are almost identical. The two batches have different amounts of grain so that I could keep the volumes of water the same and get the biggest boil I can manage.

So, would it be better to keep things as they are or to drop the mash ratio in each batch by a bit and increase the sparge by the same amount? From reading this thread it sounds like most people are doing a smaller mash ratio and a larger sparge ratio but is that really necessary as long as the same amount of water is used in total?

I don't know for sure which is better but I can tell you that I always go stiffer mash (1.15 to 1.3 qts/lb) and break the sparge into two equal infusions and I hit about 90% rather consistently.

 

[ameadrat]

I would like to a make a suggestion. If you are young to all grain, forget the words like efficiency. Focus on the steps, the temperatures, the water you are going add and the mash temperatures. and keep notes as to what you are doing,every time you do something. Compare with your original game plan, then make corrections when you make that brew again. The decsion on the beer comes when it is ready for the glass. I have been brewing seriously for 10 years,
I cant tell you my IBU,S, my color numbers or my efficiency. My last porter cost me
$24 for 2 cases thats versus $7 a six pack. My scottish ale $40.00 for 2 cases versus traquar at $5.50 a bottle. Now thats efficiency. Note I got a Parti- Gyle case off the scottish added 4 gallons of water and 4 lbs of brown sugar and got a wicked barley wine out of the leftovers in the sparge.

 

[TexLaw]

That's a mighty good tip. Also, it's not a bad idea to keep a few pounds of light DME handy, so you really don't have to worry about efficiency.


TL