Astringency - Not Carbonic Bite

[JeffoC6]

I need some help, folks. Because I was having some inconsistent carbonation problems over the course of the batches I've made, I've chalked up the astringent, sour, and metalic taste I've been experiencing to carbonic bite.

I'm now coming to realize that carbonic bite may not be the reason. I've since moved to bottle priming and prime each of my bottles (9 bottes- 1 gallon AG batches) with exactly 12 ML of priming sugar solution to ensure consistent carbonation.

My carbonation is now consistent, to style, an enjoyable, but I keep getting the same off-flavor and sensation.

Let me try my best to decribe it:

The aroma is not of nice aromatic hops, but sharp, metallic, and "thin." Whatever hop aroma I should be getting seems to be drowned out by this aroma. All of my IPA's have basically had the exact same aroma, regardless of how much I dry hop or not.

The taste is basically bitter right off the bat. For example, right now, I'm drinking my first DFH 60 Minute AG clone. When I take a sip, it tastes sharp, and then the sides of my tongue start to twinge, almost like I licked a penny. I taste the malt backbone, but I'm hardly getting any hop presence at all, and this should be a fairy high IBU brew.

The mouthfeel basically spritzes on my tongue. It's twangy, sharp, metallic, and a sour on the sides of my tongue.

When I burp, I have a metallic aftertaste.

Like I said, I've experienced this sensation/off flavor on virtually most of my brews. I figured that my inconsistent carbonation issues were causing these off flavors in the form of carbonic bite. Well, seeing that now I'm having consistent carbonation, these off flavors are still persistent.

It's really getting discouraging, as absolutely none of my IPA's have come out at all close to a commercial IPA. Not once have I enjoyed a wonderful hop aroma, or an up front hop bitterness. It's always drowned out by that sour, metallic, and sharp scent and flavor and sensation on the tongue.

I really need some help

 

[jaytizzle]

Have you looked into water chemistry? This is one subject that I haven't touched yet mostly due to the complexity involved while I'm learning other things.

Have you tried to brew with several different water sources (i.e. spring water, tap water, RO water adjusted with necessary chemicals, etc.)? If so was the result the same?

What kind of a pot do you use? Long shot but I figured I should ask.

 

[JeffoC6]

Have you looked into water chemistry? This is one subject that I haven't touched yet mostly due to the complexity involved while I'm learning other things.

Have you tried to brew with several different water sources (i.e. spring water, tap water, RO water adjusted with necessary chemicals, etc.)? If so was the result the same?

What kind of a pot do you use? Long shot but I figured I should ask.

I haven't tried any water other than Poland Spring bottled spring water that I buy from the store. My tap water isn't really that great. I always hear that you should brew with water that "tastes good." While mine isn't disgusting, I'd much rather drink (and use) bottled water.

I use a stainless steel 12 quart (3 gallon) stock pot since I only do 1 gallon AG batches.

 

[JeffoC6]

Here's what I'm reading regarding Astringency (which I'm assuming I'm having based on my observations):

ASTRINGENT

CHARACTERISTICS: Unlike bitterness, astringency is present as a stimulation of the nerve endings throughout the mouth. It is not an aroma. The taste is a puckering, dry, unpleasant situation. It is a very acidic, tannic, tart sensation reminiscent of grape skins.- I can confirm that it is a puckering sensation in my mouth. While I don't smell it per-say, I do feel that it takes away from what the normal aroma should be.

CAUSES: Bacterial contamination (lactobacillus and acetobacter); added astringency from grains or hops.

PROCESS: Caused by: poor sanitation; excessive hopping; excessive wort attenuation (small dextrin content) giving greater perception of astringent; boiling grains; excessive grain crushing; too high a lauter run-off temperature (170 degrees max); to much run-off in lautering; letting beer sit too long on trub; non-blowoff primary fermentation; alkaline mash or runoff water; too much sulfate, magnesium or iron; excessively high acidity. I truly believe in my sanitation. I'm not sure about excessive hopping, as I always adjust/use my hops based on the recipe recommendations that I'm following. I do dry hop between 7-10 days normally. I never boil my grains. I usually mash as per the recipe instructions, and then increase to 170 to "mash out" for 10 minutes. I stir CONSTANTLY to get to 170 to assure that the temp is evenly distributed. I ask my LHBS to crush my grains extra fine since I BIAB. I let ALL of my beers sit on the trub for 3 weeks and then take FG readings, they're usually done by that point. I've never had a blowoff. I use Poland Spring bottled water on every single batch that I've made.

REDUCTION: Process changes to eliminate the above. Crack grain properly, watch mash/runoff pH, 170 degrees maximum for lauter runoff water, use blowoff fermentation; good sanitation practice.

EXAMPLES: Young wine and grape skins; blowout from primary fermentation.

 

[kwingert]

Go to the Brewing Network and listen the Brew Strong episodes. I can't remember what causes the "licked a penny" taste but they talk about it in one of the episodes.

 

[kwingert]

What's your process? Astringent flavors can come from over sparging and boiling grain material.

 

[Pie_Man]

I'll take a guess, this could be due to one or more of the following:
If it's astringency, like a mouth puckering kind of feeling, perpaps tannic, it could be your mash or sparge water is too alkaline, you could be extracting tannins from over crushing the grain or over sparging, it could be acetobactor, even excessive hop immersion times can cause astrigency. To solve this, make sure sanitation is good, keep fruit flys away they carry acetobacter, monitor your mash and sparge pH, don't sparge with water that's too hot.
The metallic off flavor could be equipment related or due to excessive iron in your water.

Reference: http://morebeer.com/content/homebrew-off-flavors

 

[JeffoC6]

What's your process? Astringent flavors can come from over sparging and boiling grain material.

I do 1-gallon AG BIAB.

I put my stainless steel strainer (which fits inside the entire stock pot) into the pot

I line the strainer and pot with a 5 gallon paint strainer bag

I heat my water (constantly stirring to make sure the temp is evenly distributed) to the calculated strike temp

Once strike temp is achieved, I add my grains, stirring constantly to eliminate dough balls. I normally nail my mash temp, then put the lid on the stock pot, and wrap the entire pot in a sleeping bag for 60 minutes.

After 60 minutes, I take the lid off and take the temp and find that I'm normally about 2-3 degrees within the desired mash temp.

Then, while constantly stirring, I raise the heat to 170. Once I hit 170, I cut the heat, put the lid back on, and let it sit for 10 minutes.

After 10 minutes, I take the lid off, pull the bag, and jack the heat up until I achieve my boil. While the boil is being achieved, I squeeze the grain bag, extracting all of the remaining wort. Then I get to my boil and follow my hop additions per the recipe.

 

[JeffoC6]

I'll take a guess, this could be due to one or more of the following:
If it's astringency, like a mouth puckering kind of feeling, perpaps tannic, it could be your mash or sparge water is too alkaline, you could be extracting tannins from over crushing the grain or over sparging, it could be acetobactor, even excessive hop immersion times can cause astrigency. To solve this, make sure sanitation is good, keep fruit flys away they carry acetobacter, monitor your mash and sparge pH, don't sparge with water that's too hot.
The metallic off flavor could be equipment related or due to excessive iron in your water.

Reference: http://morebeer.com/content/homebrew-off-flavors

I thought that when you BIAB, you're supposed to have a fine crush, which is what I request from my LHBS.

I'm not sure what you mean by excessive hop immersion times. I add the hops per the recipes I'm following, and I never dry hop more than 10 days.

I've never seen a fruit fly in my condo...Ever.

I do BIAB with full volume water, so I don't sparge.

 

[jeremy586]

Mash PH possible??

 

[Pie_Man]

I stir CONSTANTLY to get to 170 to assure that the temp is evenly distributed. I ask my LHBS to crush my grains extra fine since I BIAB. I let ALL of my beers sit on the trub for 3 weeks and then take FG readings, they're usually done by that point. I've never had a blowoff. I use Poland Spring bottled water on every single batch that I've made.

REDUCTION: Process changes to eliminate the above. Crack grain properly, watch mash/runoff pH, 170 degrees maximum for lauter runoff water, use blowoff fermentation; good sanitation practice.

I've read to avoid temperatures over 170. For that reason, I don't push my mash out temperature to 170. In my opinion, it's not necessary and from what I've read, that puts you really close to the tannin extraction temp range.

 

[JeffoC6]

I've read to avoid temperatures over 170. For that reason, I don't push my mash out temperature to 170. In my opinion, it's not necessary and from what I've read, that puts you really close to the tannin extraction temp range.

Then that could be a culprit of what I'm experiencing. But honestly, do you think if I'm hitting 170, 171, 172 for 10 minutes, I'd be experiencing this in ALL of my batches?

 

[JeffoC6]

Mash PH possible??

I don't take the pH of my mashes

 

[Pie_Man]

I thought that when you BIAB, you're supposed to have a fine crush, which is what I request from my LHBS.

I'm not sure what you mean by excessive hop immersion times. I add the hops per the recipes I'm following, and I never dry hop more than 10 days.

I've never seen a fruit fly in my condo...Ever.

I do BIAB with full volume water, so I don't sparge.

I too have had my LHBS crush the grains finely for BIAB, perhaps they crush yours too fine.

It's my understanding the hop immersion time is referring to the time that hops are boiled, this doesn't sound like an issue in your case.

I would focus on your pH, the mash out temperature, and the grain crush, probably in that order. That'd be my suggestion given the info you've provided. It can be a difficult hobby at times with so many nuances to every thing.

 

[Pie_Man]

Then that could be a culprit of what I'm experiencing. But honestly, do you think if I'm hitting 170, 171, 172 for 10 minutes, I'd be experiencing this in ALL of my batches?

I honestly don't know, but I think it's worth not doing and seeing if you get a different result.

 

[JeffoC6]

I too have had my LHBS crush the grains finely for BIAB, perhaps they crush yours too fine.

It's my understanding the hop immersion time is referring to the time that hops are boiled, this doesn't sound like an issue in your case.

I would focus on your pH, the mash out temperature, and the grain crush, probably in that order. That'd be my suggestion given the info you've provided. It can be a difficult hobby at times with so many nuances to every thing.

Can you give me a little more info on the pH? I don't check my mash pH...ever, so I'm not sure what this is all about. I do have pH strips though.

 

[davekippen]

I agree with Pie Man. Brew up a batch and dont come near the 170 degree mark. I went over that with one batch by accident and definitly tasted the tannin/metallic thing. Not saying that is the cause for sure, but rule it out anyway.

 

[Pie_Man]

Can you give me a little more info on the pH? I don't check my mash pH...ever, so I'm not sure what this is all about. I do have pH strips though.

You're looking for a pH range of 5.2-5.6, your base water and the type of grains that use will affect the pH. If you're going to use pH strips, they should be fairly accurate as 5.2-5.6 is a relatively tight range.

Using water spreadsheets like EZ water calculator, or Bru'N water, (available for free download on the internet) help to estimate your pH, but you have to know information about your base water. You can also use a product called 5.2 that helps to balance your pH. I've not used it, but I know some people who do and they make great beer. Some of them cut the recommended amount of 5.2 in half. Other options involve using brewing salts and acids (phosphoric or lactic) to balance the pH.

References:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-3.html
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Understanding_Mash_pH

 

[JeffoC6]

I agree with Pie Man. Brew up a batch and dont come near the 170 degree mark. I went over that with one batch by accident and definitly tasted the tannin/metallic thing. Not saying that is the cause for sure, but rule it out anyway.

It looks like that may be my best bet in eliminating this issue...for now. I'll give this a shot for sure, but what other precautions could I take at the same time? Any suggestions?

 

[twistr25]

Can you give me a little more info on the pH? I don't check my mash pH...ever, so I'm not sure what this is all about. I do have pH strips though.

Not too lengthy, but here is a Wiki about mash pH

 

[kwingert]

I think your problem is from doing BIAB without vorlaufing. With a fine crush and not filtering the wort, your getting a lot of grain material in your boil. I've done a couple of BIAB's and the reason I stop was because I noticed all the grain material.

I would go with a coarser grind and adjust your efficiency accordingly. I think LHBS suggest a finer grind because you are not sparging and your efficiency will be low. Since you use bottled water, I would contact the bottler and get a water report. You can use this to get an idea of your water's pH. Read John Palmer's info about water in "How to Brew" and buy some cheap PH paper from your LHBS. You want your mash PH to be close to 5.2

 

[ipsiad]

How was the beer before it went into the bottles? It could be that you're losing your hop flavor/aroma simply because the bottles have sat warm for X weeks in order to carb up. I'm not a fan of bottle conditioning IPAs for that reason.

As for the metallic/astringent thing, when I've experienced that in the past it was due to an infection over-attenuating my bottled beer. If that were the case, you'd expect over-carbonation, and it sounds like that's not an issue. But if you want to check that anyway, you can pour out a beer, de-gas it, and check the gravity to see if it's lower than when you bottled.

 

[JeffoC6]

I think your problem is from doing BIAB without vorlaufing. With a fine crush and not filtering the wort, your getting a lot of grain material in your boil. I've done a couple of BIAB's and the reason I stop was because I noticed all the grain material.

I would go with a coarser grind and adjust your efficiency accordingly. I think LHBS suggest a finer grind because you are not sparging and your efficiency will be low. Since you use bottled water, I would contact the bottler and get a water report. You can use this to get an idea of your water's pH. Read John Palmer's info about water in "How to Brew" and buy some cheap PH paper from your LHBS. You want your mash PH to be close to 5.2

That's a very good point. I can definitely vouch for the fact that I do have quite a bit of grain material in my boil. I can see it, and even when I dump everything into my fermenter, I see quite a bit of trub.

So basically, while I may not think I'm "boiling my grains,"...I really am due to how much is left after I pull my bag?

But why would my beer taste good at bottling (not have those tannin/metallic flavors)?

 

[JeffoC6]

How was the beer before it went into the bottles? It could be that you're losing your hop flavor/aroma simply because the bottles have sat warm for X weeks in order to carb up. I'm not a fan of bottle conditioning IPAs for that reason.

As for the metallic/astringent thing, when I've experienced that in the past it was due to an infection over-attenuating my bottled beer. If that were the case, you'd expect over-carbonation, and it sounds like that's not an issue. But if you want to check that anyway, you can pour out a beer, de-gas it, and check the gravity to see if it's lower than when you bottled.

My beers always taste really nice at bottling.

I sit my bottles at around 70-80 for 3 weeks minimum. When doing a larger beer, I wait 4 weeks until I put one in the fridge.

 

[kwingert]

That's a very good point. I can definitely vouch for the fact that I do have quite a bit of grain material in my boil. I can see it, and even when I dump everything into my fermenter, I see quite a bit of trub.

So basically, while I may not think I'm "boiling my grains,"...I really am due to how much is left after I pull my bag?

I really think so. Using a bag is a great idea, I just think you have to find a way to filter the wort so its clean into the boil pot.

 

[JeffoC6]

I really think so. Using a bag is a great idea, I just think you have to find a way to filter the wort so its clean into the boil pot.

But why would my beer taste good at bottling (not have those tannin/metallic flavors)?

 

[Pie_Man]

kwingert makes a good point. Now you have an extra thing to try.

 

[kwingert]

Since your doing 1 gallon batches this is should be an easy problem to pin down. Take one suggestion that has been given and see if that makes a difference. If not try something else.

I just thought of something, maybe its your bottle caps. I've drank beers that tasted metallic until I wiped the lip of the bottle off. Go open a bottle, wipe the lip off, and taste it. Maybe that's it.

 

[JeffoC6]

Since your doing 1 gallon batches this is should be an easy problem to pin down. Take one suggestion that has been given and see if that makes a difference. If not try something else.

I just thought of something, maybe its your bottle caps. I've drank beers that tasted metallic until I wiped the lip of the bottle off. Go open a bottle, wipe the lip off, and taste it. Maybe that's it.

Even if I don't drink out of the bottle?

So far, here's what I'm going to do to try and alleviate this problem:

Don't go to 170 when mashing out. I may be extracting tannins. Go to 160

Because I'm crushing my grains "fine," even though I'm doing BIAB, I may still be getting a lot of grain material in my boil, which would be extracting tannins. Try and get a "less fine" crush and adjust efficiency accordingly

Squeezing the bag may be releasing tannins. Stop squeezing.

 

[kwingert]

Sounds like a plan. Let us know your results.

And maybe you are getting flavors from the caps even if you pour it out. It's something to try.

 

[JeffoC6]

Sounds like a plan. Let us know your results.

And maybe you are getting flavors from the caps even if you pour it out. It's something to try.

Thanks for your help. It's really frustrating that all of the beers I've been making have had this same taste/sourness to them. I even have a Belgian Christmas Ale aging right now that I'm assuming will taste exactly the same way when I open it up come Christmas time

 

[ipsiad]

My beers always taste really nice at bottling.

I sit my bottles at around 70-80 for 3 weeks minimum. When doing a larger beer, I wait 4 weeks until I put one in the fridge.

If the beer tastes great at bottling, then you should probably focus your troubleshooting on post-fermentation processes.

 

[JeffoC6]

One more question for those who have been helping me.

My plan is to do a more "normal" crush rather than a superfine crush that I've been requesting from my LHBS (due to BIAB). With that, I'm hoping to eliminate some of the grain material/particles that may be getting into my wort, and ultimately, boiling, thus causing my tannin/astringency problem.

Would you also agree that maybe after I pull out my grain bag, I should rest it in a colander, ontop of another kettle, and basically pour my wort through the grain bag to filter it? Then, pour it through again, thus, filtering out all of the material/particles that may have gotten into the wort via the mesh bag?

What are your thoughts on this process?

I feel like not mashing out at 170 (and instead mashing out at 160), having a less fine grain crush, and filtering my wort through the grain bag once or twice, should really cut back on potential tannin extraction.

Thoughts?

 

[twistr25]

I don't see why that shouldn't work, leading up to your fermentation aerating it by filtering a couple times shouldn't be an issue. And if you boil afterwards, if something happens to slip in, you should eliminate any infections. Good luck

 

[kwingert]

That should work, just do it really slow.

 

[Stauffbier]

I think your problem is from doing BIAB without vorlaufing. With a fine crush and not filtering the wort, your getting a lot of grain material in your boil. I've done a couple of BIAB's and the reason I stop was because I noticed all the grain material.

The only way this would be true is if the pH is off. IMHO. I do BIAB from time to time, and I get a TON of grain material in my boil. I also do a very fine crush on BIAB and standard AG. My BIAB batches are typically very tasty beers. Never tannic or metallic. Tannin extraction is a direct result of pH issues more than temperature issues. I'd be willing to bet that if the OP learns more about his water and makes pH adjustments his problems will stop. I treat all of my water. I use carbon filtered water diluted with RO and I treat each batch according to style.

Also, to the OP.. There is no need to do a mash out if you don't want. Just pull the bag and fire up your burner for the boil after conversion. While you're waiting for it to come to boiling temp squeeze the bag to get out all of the wort that you can.

 

[JeffoC6]

The only way this would be true is if the pH is off. IMHO. I do BIAB from time to time, and I get a TON of grain material in my boil. I also do a very fine crush on BIAB and standard AG. My BIAB batches are typically very tasty beers. Never tannic or metallic. Tannin extraction is a direct result of pH issues more than temperature issues. I'd be willing to bet that if the OP learns more about his water and makes pH adjustments his problems will stop. I treat all of my water. I use carbon filtered water diluted with RO and I treat each batch according to style.

Also, to the OP.. There is no need to do a mash out if you don't want. Just pull the bag and fire up your burner for the boil after conversion. While you're waiting for it to come to boiling temp squeeze the bag to get out all of the wort that you can.

OP here.
Check out this thread that I started over at the Brew Science forum. I'm thinking it's a pH issue, yes.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/please-help-me-understanding-mash-ph-343955/

 

[Stauffbier]

OP here.
Check out this thread that I started over at the Brew Science forum. I'm thinking it's a pH issue, yes.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/please-help-me-understanding-mash-ph-343955/

Great advice in that thread. I'd bet money if you buy some salts and treat RO according to a calculator like Bru'n Water or EZ Water Calculator that your beer will improve. Especially beers that use a lot of hops. Hop character benefits from the proper mineral content. I know it seems like a lot to learn, and buying a bunch of minerals seems a little too envolved. You won't regret it, though.

Regarding a comment you made in that thread about someone telling you to just use water that tastes good to you... I think that's great advice for extract brewers, but only half true for all grain brewers. Taste is a concern, but proper chemistry is just as important, if not more!

 

[JeffoC6]

Great advice in that thread. I'd bet money if you buy some salts and treat RO according to a calculator like Bru'n Water or EZ Water Calculator that your beer will improve. Especially beers that use a lot of hops. Hop character benefits from the proper mineral content. I know it seems like a lot to learn, and buying a bunch of minerals seems a little too envolved. You won't regret it, though.

Regarding a comment you made in that thread about someone telling you to just use water that tastes good to you... I think that's great advice for extract brewers, but only half true for all grain brewers. Taste is a concern, but proper chemistry is just as important, if not more!

So it sounds like my water is truly the issue, and I should be adjusting it to account for my mash pH. At least I've honed in on the issue. Now, I just need to figure things out from there...A little overwhelmed at this point.

 

[Stauffbier]

I don't know for sure that it is your issue, but a lot of things point to that. It's a good place to start trouble shooting. I was overwhelmed with water chemistry at first, but it really isn't all that hard. Just remember that this forum is your friend.. Good luck!