Asking for efficiency % help

[Morrey]

This is my first 5.5G BIAB while using a new Kegco 3 roller mill. I set the gap pretty tight (.030) and got a very nice grist from the mill. I also use Wilser bags, a 15 gallon Bayou kettle and Bayou burner. I have only done a few BIAB brews with this 15G kettle, so I am still learning water management with it.

Todays brew was a Hefeweisen with 5# Light Wheat malt and 5# Pilsner Malt, 1 oz Hallertau.

7.35 Gallons water mash in, squeezed bag after 60 min mash (153F) but not in a real aggressive fashion. After a 60 min boil, followed by cooling to 74F, I had an OG of 1.054 which was just a shade over my expectations. Also, I had 6G of wort into my FV, and again, a shade over my expectations.

As Gavin told me once, I need to get a firm handle on my water management to get the best results possible. I think I need to start with around .5G less strike water or boil off a bit of wort before my 60 min hop addition.

Based on my numbers above, may I get some efficiency feedback and some suggestions on how to make improvements in my estimations?

Many thanks for your time to respond!

 

[kh54s10]

I think more information is needed. I use Beersmith and have my Tot efficiency set for 68% So if I get the right gravity and volume I am assuming I am getting 68% efficiency. If you get your water dialed in and get better than expected gravity you can set that number a little higher and the recipes will use less ingredients for the same beer.

So what is needed is what efficiency the recipe was designed for.

I would also work on getting the water usage right so that you do not have to boil longer to end up with the proper volume.

 

[Qhrumphf]

It sounds like, if your gravity was above expectation AND your volume was above expectation, then your efficiency significantly exceeded your estimate. Nothing wrong with that, some would say it's a good thing. But you want to make sure it's not a fluke. I would give yourself a few batches of similar sized grain bills, be as consistent in your process as you can, and take notes. If you find your efficiency settles in consistently around a certain percentage, then start planning your recipes around it. You'll find with all-grain brewing that brewing recipes created by others (whoever it may be) will require adjustment for your system.

In any event, higher efficiency means you can cut the grain bill back for the same batch size, or keep the grainbill the same for a larger batch size. That's all.

You'll also find that unless the water volumes are increased to match (and the boil time lengthened), you'll get less efficiency the bigger the grain bill and more efficiency the smaller. This applies for both BIAB and MLT brewing, just with full volume BIAB it translates to adjusting water to grist ratio instead of sparge volume.

 

[Morrey]

I think more information is needed. I use Beersmith and have my Tot efficiency set for 68% So if I get the right gravity and volume I am assuming I am getting 68% efficiency. If you get your water dialed in and get better than expected gravity you can set that number a little higher and the recipes will use less ingredients for the same beer.

So what is needed is what efficiency the recipe was designed for.

I would also work on getting the water usage right so that you do not have to boil longer to end up with the proper volume.

Thanks! I started using BeerSmith a few weeks ago and in the process of learning what numbers to plug into the efficiency values. I honestly think I need a better handle on water management before I can make use of BeerSmith in the most effective manner possible.

 

[Morrey]

It sounds like, if your gravity was above expectation AND your volume was above expectation, then your efficiency significantly exceeded your estimate. Nothing wrong with that, some would say it's a good thing. But you want to make sure it's not a fluke. I would give yourself a few batches of similar sized grain bills, be as consistent in your process as you can, and take notes. If you find your efficiency settles in consistently around a certain percentage, then start planning your recipes around it. You'll find with all-grain brewing that brewing recipes created by others (whoever it may be) will require adjustment for your system.

In any event, higher efficiency means you can cut the grain bill back for the same batch size, or keep the grainbill the same for a larger batch size. That's all.

You'll also find that unless the water volumes are increased to match (and the boil time lengthened), you'll get less efficiency the bigger the grain bill and more efficiency the smaller. This applies for both BIAB and MLT brewing, just with full volume BIAB it translates to adjusting water to grist ratio instead of sparge volume.

I kinda created this recipe myself plugging in my grain and hop bill into BeerSmith. I had no clue what to set my efficiency, so I left it at 72% as default.

I probably need to get a better number in there but I am not sure quite yet. A couple more brews will give me a better handle on a "real" efficiency number to plug in.

It seems this new Kegco is going to give me a better eff% than I was getting from the grind at my LHBS which was cracked just barely. Since I BIAB, I can go for a finer grind w/o fear of stuck sparges. I'm getting there...slowly!!

 

[Gavin C]

This is my first 5.5G BIAB while using a new Kegco 3 roller mill. I set the gap pretty tight (.030) and got a very nice grist from the mill. I also use Wilser bags, a 15 gallon Bayou kettle and Bayou burner. I have only done a few BIAB brews with this 15G kettle, so I am still learning water management with it.

Todays brew was a Hefeweisen with 5# Light Wheat malt and 5# Pilsner Malt, 1 oz Hallertau.

7.35 Gallons water mash in, squeezed bag after 60 min mash (153F) but not in a real aggressive fashion. After a 60 min boil, followed by cooling to 74F, I had an OG of 1.054 which was just a shade over my expectations. Also, I had 6G of wort into my FV, and again, a shade over my expectations.

As Gavin told me once, I need to get a firm handle on my water management to get the best results possible. I think I need to start with around .5G less strike water or boil off a bit of wort before my 60 min hop addition.

Based on my numbers above, may I get some efficiency feedback and some suggestions on how to make improvements in my estimations?

Many thanks for your time to respond!

+1 to the detailed post @qhrumphf gave. 100% Solid advice.

Sounds like you are getting a good quality crush.

10lbs of grain and full volume mashing should be netting you ~80% brewhouse efficiency or very close to it either side. Very doable and repeatable. Certain factors can change and be outside of your control (differing ppg in grain supplies etc). Other factors are well within your control and it's nice to eliminate these variables in an effort to achieve consistent results.

Squeeze the snot out of the bag, not because it will net you a higher efficiency but there is no reason not to and it's very repeatable. Or don't squeeze, hoist and drain, again very repeatable and very predictable grain absorption numbers can be calculated. That is a key number for BIAB'ers. Know your strike volume A (at room temp), measure your preboil volume B (correct the volume to room temperature).

Learn your grain absorption. A-B/grain weight

That's why the squeeze should be all or nothing. Consistent.

A little too much strike water and a pre-boil volume that is too high can be corrected by a longer boil. Adding a few minutes to the boil before your first hop addition is an easy correction. Something, I've done from time to time. On a brew like a Hefe, stout or malty lager where there is just a single bittering charge in many instances, the correction can even be made after the hops are added with little to no change in the IBU's.

Again accurate measurement of grist weight, volumes and SG (preboil and post boil) tell a brewer a lot and help refine one's process with every brew.

With your own mill you are stacking the deck in your favor. A consistent tight crush with a quality bag from @wilserbrewer are two massively beneficial tools in eliminating variables.

(Side note: I know he pooh poohs my silly squeezing for good reason. He can hoist and drain. If I could do that I would not squeeze. No point in squeezing if your draining.)

The bit on efficiency in my sig covers that a bit better.

Hope that's of some use Morrey.

G

 

[doug293cz]

I'm having trouble coming up with a scenario that gives 6.0 gal of 1.054 wort starting with 10 lb of grain and 7.35 gal of strike water. If I assume 0.07 gal/lb grain absorption, 1.038 grain potential, and 100% conversion efficiency, the highest OG I get is 1.051, which corresponds to a mash efficiency of 83.3%. I have to use a grain absorption rate of ~0.03 gal/lb to get an OG of 1.054, and the lowest credible measured absorption rate I have seen is 0.055 gal/lb. So, either one or more of your measurements is off, or you squeezed in super human fashion.

In any case, you are probably running close to theoretical maximum efficiency.

To really track things down w.r.t. efficiency, the following measurements are needed:

• Grain bill weight
• Strike water volume (everything prior to initial run off)
• SG of wort at end of mash, or first runnings SG
• Sparge process (fly, batch, none)
• Sparge water volume (for each batch sparge if more than one)
• Pre-boil volume
• Pre-boil SG
• Weight & type of any sugar added to the boil
• Post-boil volume
• Post-boil SG (OG)
• Volume into fermenter

Accurate measurements are critical, since the efficiency calculations cannot be better than the measurement accuracy. All volumes should be corrected for thermal expansion to 68˚F, or the volume measurement temperature reported, so that corrections can be made. Hydrometer measurements should be taken with the wort temp within 20˚F of the hydrometer's calibration temperature, and then corrected for the temperature at which the measurement was made.

Mash Efficiency = Conversion Efficiency * Lauter Efficiency
Brewhouse Efficiency = Mash Efficiency * Fermenter Volume / Post-boil Volume

With the measurements listed above, all of the factors in the above equations can be calculated. Also, cross checking can be done to help isolate which measurements may be in error in cases where everything doesn't add up.

Brew on

 

[Morrey]

+1 to the detailed post @qhrumphf gave. 100% Solid advice.

Sounds like you are getting a good quality crush.

10lbs of grain and full volume mashing should be netting you ~80% brewhouse efficiency or very close to it either side. Very doable and repeatable. Certain factors can change and be outside of your control (differing ppg in grain supplies etc). Other factors are well within your control and it's nice to eliminate these variables in an effort to achieve consistent results.

Squeeze the snot out of the bag, not because it will net you a higher efficiency but there is no reason not to and it's very repeatable. Or don't squeeze, hoist and drain, again very repeatable and very predictable grain absorption numbers can be calculated. That is a key number for BIAB'ers. Know your strike volume A (at room temp), measure your preboil volume B (correct the volume to room temperature).

Learn your grain absorption. A-B/grain weight

That's why the squeeze should be all or nothing. Consistent.

A little too much strike water and a pre-boil volume that is too high can be corrected by a longer boil. Adding a few minutes to the boil before your first hop addition is an easy correction. Something, I've done from time to time. On a brew like a Hefe, stout or malty lager where there is just a single bittering charge in many instances, the correction can even be made after the hops are added with little to no change in the IBU's.

Again accurate measurement of grist weight, volumes and SG (preboil and post boil) tell a brewer a lot and help refine one's process with every brew.

With your own mill you are stacking the deck in your favor. A consistent tight crush with a quality bag from @wilserbrewer are two massively beneficial tools in eliminating variables.

(Side note: I know he pooh poohs my silly squeezing for good reason. He can hoist and drain. If I could do that I would not squeeze. No point in squeezing if your draining.)

The bit on efficiency in my sig covers that a bit better.

Hope that's of some use Morrey.

G

Gavin, your advice and guidance has shined a light for me to follow for many brews now. Like you, I sweat the details, but then again, perfection is in order to become the best of the best.

I need to dig around BS some more and find the advanced settings to customize my numbers. I am getting some great experiences under my belt, and my beers are showing my pride. And I thank you and all the great folks on HBT for that!!!

 

[Morrey]

I'm having trouble coming up with a scenario that gives 6.0 gal of 1.054 wort starting with 10 lb of grain and 7.35 gal of strike water. If I assume 0.07 gal/lb grain absorption, 1.038 grain potential, and 100% conversion efficiency, the highest OG I get is 1.051, which corresponds to a mash efficiency of 83.3%. I have to use a grain absorption rate of ~0.03 gal/lb to get an OG of 1.054, and the lowest credible measured absorption rate I have seen is 0.055 gal/lb. So, either one or more of your measurements is off, or you squeezed in super human fashion.

In any case, you are probably running close to theoretical maximum efficiency.

To really track things down w.r.t. efficiency, the following measurements are needed:

• Grain bill weight
• Strike water volume (everything prior to initial run off)
• SG of wort at end of mash, or first runnings SG
• Sparge process (fly, batch, none)
• Sparge water volume (for each batch sparge if more than one)
• Pre-boil volume
• Pre-boil SG
• Weight & type of any sugar added to the boil
• Post-boil volume
• Post-boil SG (OG)
• Volume into fermenter

Accurate measurements are critical, since the efficiency calculations cannot be better than the measurement accuracy. All volumes should be corrected for thermal expansion to 68˚F, or the volume measurement temperature reported, so that corrections can be made. Hydrometer measurements should be taken with the wort temp within 20˚F of the hydrometer's calibration temperature, and then corrected for the temperature at which the measurement was made.

Mash Efficiency = Conversion Efficiency * Lauter Efficiency
Brewhouse Efficiency = Mash Efficiency * Fermenter Volume / Post-boil Volume

With the measurements listed above, all of the factors in the above equations can be calculated. Also, cross checking can help isolate which measurements may be in error in cases where everything doesn't add up.

Brew on

Thanks, Doug. One thing is I really did grind quite fine. Not powder fine but it surely was well more fine than the LHBS is grinding. I squeezed but not the point of busting the bag. Only question I was unsure of was the OG. I sampled (three readings and bubble dislodge) in a beer thief while the wort was at 75F and got 1.053. I corrected the gravity to 60F, and the program corrected to 1.054. That part I was not sure about but other measures are specific. BTW.....thanks for looking at my numbers as this is how we all learn and grow.

 

[Gavin C]

..
I need to dig around BS some more and find the advanced settings to customize my numbers. ..

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