Are there any bugs/bacteria that are NOT killed by boiling?

[the-adjunct-hippie]

Still trying to treat this infection issue.

• Sanitize with IoStar, all equipment and utensils
• Got some brand new buckets for fermenting
• Double checking all of my steps to make sure things are clean and sanitized
• All adjuncts get dunked in vodka and mixed in with the completed beer

My most recent batch was supposed to be a white stout, but a focus on the strawberries. Like a strawberry milkshake. It was your basic recipe of 2 row and some caramel malt with saaz hops and some graham crackers in the boil. I tasted some tangy-ness towards the end of fermentation, though it still tasted fine by my standards. I said, "this is a good base for my strawberries I've got prepared for secondary". It was on track to be a righteous beer. Strawberries were bought fresh and then frozen, 2 lbs for a 2 gallon batch. I checked the beer right before I was to rack it to secondary and the tang was a little more noticeable. I put 2 lbs of frozen strawberries and 2 oz of cocoa nibs in a large strainer bag and soaked them in vodka for 5 minutes, then placed the bag at the bottom of the (sanitized) secondary vessel and also threw in the vodka. I racked the beer onto the strawberries/cocoa nib mix, and left them in secondary for 6 days before taking a taste test. Sure enough, I've got a Berliner Weiss on my hands.

OG of 1.050, FG of 1.020. taken at 10 days, took it again 5 days later still stalled out.

I used a brand new bucket and spigot for this batch, and sanitized it both with IoStar and PBW. I've been extra careful. Do I need new brewpots?

^^ One thing I did notice was that the opening where I drilled for the spigot was leaking drips here and there below the spigot. Could that have made it worse?

It's really frustrating because I had a 25/25 record of making successful batches. Now I'm about 27/32. I've had two batches out of seven (in the last two months) that came out without any problems and the only denominator I can figure is that both of them did not contain much (if any) secondary additions. One was a dry-hopped red ale, and the other was a saison.

I talked to my homebrew shop and they said it could be that our water supply changed. I had been taking soft water from our kitchen faucet and they recommended taking it from the spigot outside to bypass the softener. I haven't tested the water yet (they were out of pH strips) but I'm assuming if it's a water issue I'll end up adjusting it chemically. I just made a double IPA last night with water from the spigot and used a campden tablet so we'll see if that makes a difference.


My PB&J ale (you might remember from my post before) is also now a PB&J sour beer. It's tasty but man it's puckering.

It seems the souring gets worse over time, not immediately.


I'm not the brightest bulb in the arena, I tend to learn things the hard way. I also don't have any homebrewers' brains to pick (except on here). Any help is greatly appreciated. Thank you.


TLDR : 5 out of 7 batches have been infected, three of them after changing my routines and replacing fermenters with new ones.

 

[corax]

What is your full procedure?

Do you do a full-volume boil, or top off with water?

How do you chill your wort before pitching -- and how long after the boil do you pitch?

How much yeast do you pitch?

I've had two batches out of seven (in the last two months) that came out without any problems and the only denominator I can figure is that both of them did not contain much (if any) secondary additions.

This was my immediate suspicion, but if you say you tasted the sourness before secondary, it suggests an earlier problem.

One thing I did notice was that the opening where I drilled for the spigot was leaking drips here and there below the spigot. Could that have made it worse?

Yes, definitely.

And to answer the question in the subject line, there are a few bugs that could survive boiling, but they are unlikely to be able to compete with the yeast - assuming that you pitched enough yeast, and that you didn't give them a head start by not chilling quickly enough.

 

[BrewInspector]

Without knowing your full procedures I'm leaning towards the post fermentation adjuncts or the procedures there.

There can be a lot of equipment involved that could be the source beyond the fermenter, hoses, siphon, hydrometer, bottles, caps and other items you use again depending on your procedures.

That leaky port could be an issue. Have you removed it and disassembled it for cleaning?

Try something more basic. Clean and sanitize everything. Replace what can't be cleaned. Brew a simpler beer without secondary or adjuncts paying attention to sanitation and using simple procedures. Interact with the beer as little as possible. No tasting, sampling, moving or opening to inspect and see if that doesn't increase your success rate. If the problem is still there then you have fewer things to examine in order to determine the source if there is one.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Try something more basic. Clean and sanitize everything. Replace what can't be cleaned. Brew a simpler beer without secondary or adjuncts paying attention to sanitation and using simple procedures. Interact with the beer as little as possible. No tasting, sampling, moving or opening to inspect and see if that doesn't increase your success rate. If the problem is still there then you have fewer things to examine in order to determine the source if there is one.

Seconded.
Eliminate possibilities.

All adjuncts get dunked in vodka and mixed in with the completed beer

It needs to be 70% ethanol (140 proof) and would require 15 second contact time and it will only sanitize the surface.

 

[IslandLizard]

Just a few ideas...

Do you have a valve on your kettle? Have you taken it off and apart lately and scrubbed all the threads?
How about racking equipment, and hoses?
How do you chill after the boil?

Have you brewed a "straight" beer lately and successfully, one without fruit or any other adjuncts after the boil? That would be your baseline. "Tinkering" with beer after the boil invites bugs, however you play it.

All that stuff that gets added later can infect your beer. A small oversight somewhere in the process is enough. Using secondaries is NOT recommended, they can cause infections (and oxidation).

A few rules:
A surface must first be clean before it can be sanitized.
PBW is a cleaner, not a sanitiser.
Starsan and Iodophor are sanitizers, not cleaners.

Freezing strawberries should kill the majority of germs. Best is to actually freeze, defrost, then refreeze again before use.
Dunking that strawberry pulp in vodka won't kill anything, it dilutes the vodka too much so there's only to 3-5% alcohol left, at best.

 

[the-adjunct-hippie]

Thanks for the replies. My procedure goes as follows :

• Measure out water with Pyrex cups to pour into stainless Mainstays (walmart) pot on stove. Bring to strike temp (usually 160).
• Measure out grain bill (usually 1 lb per quart ratio) while water is coming to temp. Place in strainer bags and into the now proper temp mash water.
• Mash for 60 minutes with burner off and lid on pot to keep temperature consistent
• Take grain bag(s) out and place them in strainer/colander hanging over lip of pot and pour cold water over the grains (usually 3-4 qts) to lauter/sparge and then I squeeze them to extract more protein
• I begin the boil
• I place hops into the boil and do (generally) a 60-70 minute boil time.
• Towards the last 10-20 minutes I add my adjuncts if needed (lactose, oak, cocoa powder/nibs, banana peel, peanuts, late hop additions, etc)
• I remove all bagged items from wort and remove pot from hot area on stove
• I dump ice cubes into the wort to cool it down and replenish boiled off wort and stir with my stainless brewing spoon
• I sanitize my buckets, spoons, funnels, Tupperware, etc I am going to use for the transfer to the fermenter while wort is cooling
• I wake my dry yeast up by putting sanitized water in the sanitized tupperware container and pouring yeast in, then stir after 5 minutes and cover.
• I take a gravity reading and pour the wort into the sanitized fermenter. I discard the wort used in gravity reading.
• I wait until temperature drops to 80 degrees via brew thermometer and pitch the yeast mix in
• Cover and wait, take gravity reading and taste test from hydrometer tube 8-10 days in
• Either the beer is infected or it's not

Sometimes for smaller 2-3 gallon batches I will use half a packet instead of a whole one. This is mainly for beers in the 4-7% range.

My fermenter usage rotates between Mr. beer fermenters and 5 gallon white buckets.

 

[the-adjunct-hippie]

Guys I may have found the solution actually. This thread reminded me of the vast amount of fruit flies we are getting in our kitchen as of 2 months ago.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/gnats-in-my-beer.652603/

Apparently they carry a chemical that turns alcohol to vinegar which explains that the further along in the fermentation the more sour it gets. I never noticed fruit flies in any of my beers, but then again they are so small you just never know.

Is there a better explanation than this? I have been way less careful in the past about my sanitization practices and have never run into an infected beer.

 

[corax]

Fruit flies are definitely a concern.

Other concerns:

I dump ice cubes into the wort to cool it down and replenish boiled off wort and stir with my stainless brewing spoon

What is the source of the ice? It's pretty much impossible to get sterile ice, but some ice is more likely to be a source of contamination than other ice, depending on how it's made. When I was starting out I used bagged ice from the grocery store, and never noticed a problem. Consider moving to full-volume boils with a wort chiller as soon as it's feasible to do so.

I wake my dry yeast up by putting sanitized water in the sanitized tupperware container and pouring yeast in, then stir after 5 minutes and cover.

What is "sanitized" water? Boiled water? I used to be a big advocate of rehydrating dry yeast, but I'm coming around to thinking direct pitching is preferable. Use two pouches for a 5 gallon batch.

I wait until temperature drops to 80 degrees via brew thermometer and pitch the yeast mix in

How long does that usually take? If more than a few hours, definitely make getting that wort chiller a high priority.

 

[the-adjunct-hippie]

Fruit flies are definitely a concern.

Other concerns:

What is the source of the ice? It's pretty much impossible to get sterile ice, but some ice is more likely to be a source of contamination than other ice, depending on how it's made. When I was starting out I used bagged ice from the grocery store, and never noticed a problem. Consider moving to full-volume boils with a wort chiller as soon as it's feasible to do so.

What is "sanitized" water? Boiled water? I used to be a big advocate of rehydrating dry yeast, but I'm coming around to thinking direct pitching is preferable. Use two pouches for a 5 gallon batch.

How long does that usually take? If more than a few hours, definitely make getting that wort chiller a high priority.

All of the ice comes from my fridge ice dispenser.

I've been looking at getting a wort chiller... and that sounds like good advice.

The sanitized water that I put the yeast into is drawn from the "currently sanitizing" future fermentation bucket containing ioStar .

It takes roughly an hour or two for the Wort in the bucket to cool down to pitching Temps

 

[corax]

All of the ice comes from my fridge ice dispenser.

This could be a source of contaminants. If you're going to make your own ice, you should sanitize some plastic ice trays, fill them with boiling water, and cover them with fresh foil or saran wrap while they freeze. Store the ice cubes in fresh gallon zip-lock bags while you make additional batches.

The sanitized water that I put the yeast into is drawn from the "currently sanitizing" future fermentation bucket containing ioStar .

Whoa -- sanitizer solutions will kill yeasts as well as contaminant bugs, so this is probably causing a major die-off of your yeast. If you use sanitizers on anything coming in contact with the yeast, it needs to be fully drained first. If you need to rehydrate yeast, what you want to do is to boil some water, cover it, and let it cool to ~90° F. Or skip re-hydration, and pitch 2 packs of dry yeast directly into chilled wort.

 

[Manufacturedevolution]

Have you considered putting your kettle in an ice bath to cool?

 

[ccous]

Yeah, I’ll use fridge dispenser ice cubes for a glass of water or in the cocktail shaker, for quick consumption. But I certainly wouldn’t dump them in my hot wort to cool it.

 

[IslandLizard]

Apparently they [fruit flies] carry a chemical that turns alcohol to vinegar

They carry Acetobacter, a genus of bacteria that digests alcohol turning it into vinegar. They should not come in contact with your wort or beer. The fermentor should seal effectively (lid) and they can't swim through an airlock filled with Starsan. When beer or wort is exposed to the air, during handling, prevent them from getting in there.

Look up: fruit fly trap, they're easy to build.

Good cleaning and sanitation practices should reduce or eliminate most bacteria. Then a healthy fermentation, by pitching enough viable yeast, some decent aeration/oxygenation, and fermenting at correct temps, should prevent pretty much any other microorganisms from taking hold before the yeast does.

I see some problems with your methods:

• As was pointed out, your wort chilling method needs some attention or revision.
  
• You're rehydrating the dry yeast in a sanitizer solution? That's totally wrong! This was also pointed out.
• You're pitching your yeast at too high of temps. The yeast slurry when correctly prepared (follow manufacturer instructions to a T), should be pitched within 5-10°F from the wort temp. The wort temp should be closer to 64-68F depending on the (ale) yeast's indicated fermentation range (per manufacturer). Lagers much lower.

Now none of these explain how you've had a perfect 25/25 brewing record before. Did you change things?

If you haven't done so, I would definitely replace the plastic racking hoses, it's almost impossible to remove a lingering infection in there. And keep em clean.
Scrub or soak everything else in a (homemade) PBW, (generic) Oxiclean, or (simple, cheap) washing soda solution.

Rinse well, then sanitize right before use.

 

[Jayjay1976]

To keep fruit flies from messing with my fermenters I wrap the spigot with plastic wrap and a rubber band, and stuff a cotton ball into the top of the s-style airlock to keep them from reaching the star san just in case any gets sucked back into the beer.

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

How about that Tupperware container? Do you use it specifically for brewing or was it previously used for food? Was it scrubbed at one time to clean food from it? If so it may be harboring bacteria in tiny scratches.

Question regarding the 25/25. Are these your first 25 brews? If so you have hit the road block that many new home brewers hit. You get all new equipment and are chugging along making good beer then suddenly Wham! A few bad batches in a row. I would be willing to bet there is some part of your equipment that isn't clean. Remember, cleaning and sanitizing should be your top priority.

Do you disassemble the spigot after every batch? Most of them do come apart. When I started i used to leave my bottling bucket assembled. I would soak it in cleaner overnight, sanitize it thoroughly etc. However what i couldn't see was the crud building up inside the spigot and threads until I pulled it apart one day. Problem solved there.

Fruit Flies: Are they actually getting in your beer? If not this isn't the issue. They are just a PIA but a little cup in the area with a few drops of lemon detergent and apple cider vinegar will attract them. They drown in the solution.

Also, i have a hard time believing its the water from your tap. The water is treated and shouldn't harbor enough bacteria to cause this issue.

Have you ever used really hot water on those clear plastic parts like bottling wands, racking canes or auto siphons? They are not rated for hot water. If they come in contact with hot water this can create micro cracks which bacteria can hide in. Always rinse and soak in cool - cold water.

How are you cleaning your equipment post brewing and fermenting?

To reiterate what everyone else said. Simplify your process and beer styles till you get back on track.

Don't get too frustrated. Most brewers go through this

Cheers