Hi all, I have a large south facing roof that gets plenty of sun. My electric bill is around $550 this time of year and approx $300+ during the fall through spring (my rates are crazy high). Everything I own is electric. Except my heat, which is a coal and a fireplace. Those are kid/me powered. We got a new roof last year and now we're debating getting solar power. What are your guys thoughts?
Are solar panels worth it?
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$550? A month?!? Yikes! McMansion, or what?
First question from an installer will be how many square feet of southern exposure roof do you have. The average solar panel is good for ~15 watts per square foot. Ideally you'd have enough room for panels to handle your base load needs at least...
Cheers! (And good luck)
First question from an installer will be how many square feet of southern exposure roof do you have. The average solar panel is good for ~15 watts per square foot. Ideally you'd have enough room for panels to handle your base load needs at least...
Cheers! (And good luck)
smata67
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Are you in Mass? If so contact the DOER for an analysis of your particular situation.
Oldpaddy
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I wish. Somewhere around 1500sqft living space. Well water (160' down), electric hot water, stove, wall ac, etc. During the winter it's usually around $250-300. I'd say water is my biggest expense. And my rates are high. About $.23kw
My south facing roof is approx 20'x35'
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I'm in a very similar location to you and have looked into solar panels, and will probably get them at some point, but not most pressing need, expenditure wise.
From my research into your original question the answer is yes, probably, depending on specifics of usage on average, as well as seasonal demand. For instance, unless you have a big open array at extreme angle, adjustable or other wise, they aren't going to help much with winter heat.
The first question to ask is how you can conserve to cut your electrical usage first, before thinking about alternative energy. LED bulbs save me over $80 a month, and I still use incandescent in a few places where I prefer them.
On the domestic hot water, maybe look into conditioning tank, and or alternate heat source. Might be time to look at an on demand propane unit, at least for some of hot water needs.
Always nice not be reliant on one source for energy needs, in my opinion.
From my research into your original question the answer is yes, probably, depending on specifics of usage on average, as well as seasonal demand. For instance, unless you have a big open array at extreme angle, adjustable or other wise, they aren't going to help much with winter heat.
The first question to ask is how you can conserve to cut your electrical usage first, before thinking about alternative energy. LED bulbs save me over $80 a month, and I still use incandescent in a few places where I prefer them.
On the domestic hot water, maybe look into conditioning tank, and or alternate heat source. Might be time to look at an on demand propane unit, at least for some of hot water needs.
Always nice not be reliant on one source for energy needs, in my opinion.
RePete
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Wow. We have a large house, charge an electric car, and spend alot less than that.
I looked into solar panels last year. A guy came out with a meter, and told me it's not worth it. We have some large trees which block too much sun.
Woof, that's a tough rate. We're on Hudson L&P at just under 14 cents (they bought a chunk of Seabrook eons ago and it actually paid off).
So you could put up enough panels to hit roughly 40A @240V, or 10KW peak, on a good day. You'll need to grind the numbers to know if that investment makes sense.
My raised ranch home has a 65' long roof that is perfectly oriented for solar (SSE exposure) but I am paranoid about the panel installation effing up my two year old roof...
Cheers!
RePete
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I have the same sort of worry. Except that my house was built in 1912 and still has the original tile roof.
Oldpaddy
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I swapped out all my bulbs to cfl and now led 10+ years ago. And I've been in the dark ever since. I hate these stupid led bulbs. My livingroom and kitchen lights are built in and are made to use large globe bulbs. I think g40s. I paid an arm and a leg for fancy 8w globes years ago. While I saw a savings on electricity, I had to spend around $20 a bulb. I needed 12 bulbs. Everything I own now uses less electricity than 20 years ago. In some cases by a lot. Like tvs and computers.
I only heat with coal and wood. About $1000 a year. 15 years ago my exwife made me install propane heat. One month cost me what I spend in a year on coal. I had them rip the tank out that following spring. I will not go back to propane unless hell freezes over.
My biggest expense is water and the ac during the summer. There's not much fat left to trim.
Oldpaddy
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My power company is cute. Half my bill is just the cost of power (about $.12kw). The other half is getting it to me. Take this last month for instance, I used about $215 in electricity, but it cost an addition $220 to get it to me.
Edit: my mistake, it was $269 in usage and $265 in delivery.
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Oldpaddy
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I live in the great state of Massachusetts. Everything costs a lot more where I'm at. It didn't used to be like this. But as I got older I saw all the regular people leave and the rich people move in. Rich people love spending money and hate things like cheap electricity. The problem is I'm not rich. I barely have a pot to piss in. I should've moved away like everyone else I grew up with. My high school went from 250-300 kids when I graduated in '97 to almost nothing when they shut it down 10+ years ago. By that time there was a grade with one kid in it. Talk about a mass exodus.
might sound crazy, but ever consider water delivery? your pump usage should go way way down as it would just be for pressure.
also- if you're handy, consider getting yourself into hydronic heating and cooling. solar collectors and an
insulated water tank. they make little fan units that you can mount in the ceiling of each room, in the wall, in the floor, etc. even in the winter you're still getting some solar radiation and the collectors will catch it. if need be, you can back it up/boost with electric. anyone who does a decent amount of brewing should be able to set up a basic system.
cooling is a bit more circumstantial. depends on the temps of your water source/cistern, etc. etc. maybe it works for you, maybe it doesnt.
also- if you're handy, consider getting yourself into hydronic heating and cooling. solar collectors and an
insulated water tank. they make little fan units that you can mount in the ceiling of each room, in the wall, in the floor, etc. even in the winter you're still getting some solar radiation and the collectors will catch it. if need be, you can back it up/boost with electric. anyone who does a decent amount of brewing should be able to set up a basic system.
cooling is a bit more circumstantial. depends on the temps of your water source/cistern, etc. etc. maybe it works for you, maybe it doesnt.
Oldpaddy
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Personally, I think that does indeed sound crazy.
at .23 a kwh.....that would mean you use 2400 kwh's a month? if this were co2 i'd be looking for a leak!!!
and yet the majority of the people on the planet do just that on a regular basis. cheaper and safer than wells and pumps. ymmv
Oldpaddy
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Oldpaddy
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I don't think I've ever met one person before you who told me they have water delivered to their homes. I've only seen stuff like that for pools.
i guess i'm glad i live in southern az!! and the spikes were just when it was 103f outside......my bill was $98......i usually can get away with running fans at night......
Oldpaddy
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It's too humid here for fans. It's 75f right now, but very humid. I have a brick floor and before ac the floor would sweat like a basement. 35+ years of living out in the woods with animals and that floor gets pretty rancid when it's warm and humid. No matter how much I scrub the floor you can't get rid of the nastiness of it in high humidity. I'll wake up tomorrow and all my downstairs windows/sliders will be covered in dew and I can't see out them.
Bilsch
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I put my first solar array on the house in 2007, At that time the payoff was 14 years but there were a few incentives including some cash from my state and electric company which clipped some time off of that. When I added the second 4000 watt addition, the payoff was expected to be 7 years, not including the sweet Fed tax deduction. For comparison the cost of electricity here is 12 cents a kilowatt. Anyway the price per watt for the equipment is so low now there is really no reason not to do it, except if you don't have much sun. Panasonic makes a great panel and Fronius a top of the line inverter. Your installer will most likely give you the choice of brands and never hurts to do a bit of research. My electric bill is $4.95/mo and that is the minimum cost here to be connected to the grid in a grid-tie system. Why isn't everyone going solar???
I'm in SoCal and recently did a pretty extensive remodel on my California Bungalo.... 1st Summer after central AC, our Electric bill jumped from $150-200 every 2 mos. to $500-600 every 2 mos. 
Got solar the next year using HELOC... $12Kish (with city, state & fed rebates/tax credits... the break even point was ~ 7 yrs)... Supposedly covers 90% of our usage.
Heating/hot water/stove are all Natural Gas already. I find that my winter bills after solar are lower than the winter bills before solar but not dramatically so. Summer bills are ***WAY*** lower than before solar.... $100 vs $500. Summer and winter bills after solar are roughly about the same... (+/- $20-30). Seems solar sucks up the extra summer usage from AC. I've actual had 1 or 2 months where I got money back from producing more than I used when it was sunny but not really hot... (but minimal like $1-2)
I haven't actually crunched the before/after numbers while factoring in HELOC expense, but my subjective feeling
is that I'm paying less on average and still staying cool during the summer (no AC before remodel, so summers were a tad warmish pre central air
)
And w/ refinance to Covid-19 mortgage rates, it might be even better ROI...
We also got an electric car (Nissan Leaf) around the same time... so slightly increase electricity usage...
Don't regret solar at all...
Got solar the next year using HELOC... $12Kish (with city, state & fed rebates/tax credits... the break even point was ~ 7 yrs)... Supposedly covers 90% of our usage.
Heating/hot water/stove are all Natural Gas already. I find that my winter bills after solar are lower than the winter bills before solar but not dramatically so. Summer bills are ***WAY*** lower than before solar.... $100 vs $500. Summer and winter bills after solar are roughly about the same... (+/- $20-30). Seems solar sucks up the extra summer usage from AC. I've actual had 1 or 2 months where I got money back from producing more than I used when it was sunny but not really hot... (but minimal like $1-2)
I haven't actually crunched the before/after numbers while factoring in HELOC expense, but my subjective feeling
is that I'm paying less on average and still staying cool during the summer (no AC before remodel, so summers were a tad warmish pre central air
)And w/ refinance to Covid-19 mortgage rates, it might be even better ROI...
We also got an electric car (Nissan Leaf) around the same time... so slightly increase electricity usage...
Don't regret solar at all...
What you should worry about is hiring an electrician to un and reinstall when you need a new roof. My Dad invested in solar and was tickled pink when he got his credits or a very low bill. I was helping him out With managing his house and paid one for nine cents, in person with cash.
Any problem they case installing of course will be taken care of by them, granted even a slow leak is a PITA. After dad passed a sibling had the house and it became evident some work needed to be done and the cost was very high, because of the extra labor. Maybe some companies cover that in their contract now.
Anyway for the OP, if you don’t plan on moving you’ll be betteroff. The panels do still produce electricity on cloudy days, just less than sunny days. Owning the system instead of these “we want to renot you roof” clowns is the way to go if you can, and if the analysis is positive.
Bilsch
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Definitely, especially now that interest rates are so low.
I’m glad you understood, wtf is with all the typos? Guess I should call it a night. Cheers!
Auger
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Check out energysage.com. Companies can do a fair bit of analysis up front to get you in the ballpark for the initial cost/benefit, then you can whittle it down to whatever the top 2 or 3 are to do site visits and fine tune the proposals. That is how we started out and it worked out well, and I'd definitely recommend purchasing vs leasing or a PPA if you can swing it.
Definitely worth it in your situation. Don't know what your state incentives are, but between 30% federal tax credit and another state program, I was only out of pocket for about 35-40% of total project install cost. I'm presuming MA has net metering, so yeah, if you're paying those electric bills, it's hella-worth-it. My rates are in the $0.06 range and my payoff time is roughly 4-5 years even after going with higher end Panasonic panels. Your payoff ROI is probably like 1-2 years if your bills/rates are that high.
Call a few well-reviewed companies in your area and negotiate on price and play them against each other like a MOFO! You should be able to talk them down CONSIDERABLY from their initial quotes
That is precisely the time to put in solar panels, though.
jrgtr42
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Have you had MassSave come in and do a walk through? They'll replace any bulbs left (for free!) and see if there's other ways to save power - insulation and so on.
As far as solar itself goes, it CAN be worth it, or it could cost more than you spend now.
You can have a couple solar companies come in and do an estimate - first is southern exposure, and also how many trees you have blocking the roof. Also keep in mind there's differences from companies that lease the panels to you versus ones that sell them to you outright.
We had them come in. The leasing ones will put any number up, but it may not make much difference.
The ones that we were going to buy had an engineering study done, and for us it wouldn't even come close unless we cut down all our trees and coated both sides of the roof - we're also an east-west orientation.
Instead we went with split unit A|C / heaters, and replaced all the baseboards in the house with new, high efficiency models. We saved almost half on our electric bills almost immediately.
As far as solar itself goes, it CAN be worth it, or it could cost more than you spend now.
You can have a couple solar companies come in and do an estimate - first is southern exposure, and also how many trees you have blocking the roof. Also keep in mind there's differences from companies that lease the panels to you versus ones that sell them to you outright.
We had them come in. The leasing ones will put any number up, but it may not make much difference.
The ones that we were going to buy had an engineering study done, and for us it wouldn't even come close unless we cut down all our trees and coated both sides of the roof - we're also an east-west orientation.
Instead we went with split unit A|C / heaters, and replaced all the baseboards in the house with new, high efficiency models. We saved almost half on our electric bills almost immediately.
Oldpaddy
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Other than replacing my insulation and windows, there's nothing more anyone can do to bring my electric bill down. And I'm not ready to do that yet. I did my roof last year and the siding, insulation, windows are a few years away. It's all about the benjamins. Especially since the wuhan flu took my job away and I have to babysit my kids until they open the schools/recs back up. I only want solar to get my bill down. If it doesn't help my electricity expense, then it's not worth it.
My roof is set north south with the south side having the most area. It's a straight shot too. No gables or anything. I've been taking down trees left and right on my half acre so that's not an issue.
Steveruch
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Where do you live? The cost per kilowatt can vary greatly from one area to another.
Oldpaddy
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Yeah, over the last 20 years they've decommissioned all the coal and nuclear power plants in my state. And with them the cost has skyrocketed. I miss my grandparents generation. They got **** done and weren't looking for the warm fuzzy bs.
twd000
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2000 + kWh electric usage per month is staggeringly high. I'm in New Hampshire (also high rates ~$0.20/kWh) but my usage is ~1/3 of that, in a 3,000 square foot Colonial with a family of 5.
You gotta figure out where all that juice is going. Not talking about reading by candlelight or taking cold showers. One of your major appliances may be malfunctioning, or your main service panel is not grounded properly.
It's possible your air conditioner is short cycling, or hard-starting, or low on refrigerant
it's possible your water heater is set way too high and you're mixing in cold water to compensate
it's possible your well pump has a leak and it's continuously pumping water
do you have an electric clothes dryer? If the exhaust is clogged with lint, it'll run for hours just trying to get the clothes dry
You could get a whole-house energy monitor and flip the breakers one-by-one to pinpoint the high idle load
You gotta figure out where all that juice is going. Not talking about reading by candlelight or taking cold showers. One of your major appliances may be malfunctioning, or your main service panel is not grounded properly.
It's possible your air conditioner is short cycling, or hard-starting, or low on refrigerant
it's possible your water heater is set way too high and you're mixing in cold water to compensate
it's possible your well pump has a leak and it's continuously pumping water
do you have an electric clothes dryer? If the exhaust is clogged with lint, it'll run for hours just trying to get the clothes dry
You could get a whole-house energy monitor and flip the breakers one-by-one to pinpoint the high idle load
You mean like offering a tax credit to put generation at the source of the consumption?
not sure when the last time you did an analysis on this one, but with installed cost per watt under $2 and he's paying 3-4x $per kWh that others who see payback in 5 years... not sure how you come to the ole "could cost him more in the end"... sure, if he pays out of pocket and then sells his house in the next couple years,
Oldpaddy
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Thanks, but this is nothing new. I've been using the same amount of electricity for 15 years+. In that time I've gone through just about every appliance. Electrical work done, ranges, dishwashers, tvs, pcs, water heater, pressure tank, refrigerators, freezers, lights, acs, washers, dryers and more. The usage has never changed much except for a few years in between wives. Then it went down. With wife #2 and kids 2&3 it went right back up. Now I do have other items that chew up electricity, so I'm not surprised by my usage, but I'd say it has a lot to do with the well pump. That's the one constant through out the years. How deep is your well? Mine is 160' down. That's a long distance for water to travel. Obviously this time of year with the ac (which is 4 years old) the bill sky rockets. And no, my dryer isn't clogged. I clean the vent every few months. My pump doesn't cycle on/off unless I have something running. I fixed every leaky faucet and pin hole plumbing leaks a few years ago. In fact I had to replace a 2yr old faucet cartridge the other day. I do stay on top of things and I keep an eye on everything.
Oldpaddy
Well-Known Member
I've talked to more solar places today than I can keep track of. Starting Thursday I've got people coming over to give me estimates and options. Having talked to you guys, and others, I'm guessing I'll probably be going solar. I'll have a better idea in a week or so.
Thanks everyone!
Thanks everyone!
ChiknNutz
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Is it though, especially if all electric? We (family of 4-5) used to live in WA state and had a 1984, 2000 SF rambler, but had a pool, hot tub, well about 150' deep and detached shop. All electric, propane only used for occasional shop heat. I kept up on things, used new appliances, had a high efficiency heat pump, new vinyl frame windows throughout, etc. My average bill for the prior 12 years was between $175 and $225 per month (rates crept up over that time, but usage was pretty consistent as I kept a detailed spreadsheet of it). Rates there are now just over $0.10/KWH. That equates to just about 2000 KWH/month.
We moved to NC just over a year ago. The house is much bigger and just a few years newer (1988, about 3700 SF), has two heat pumps but no pool, well or hot tub, but I do have a detached shop again. Before buying the place, I asked what their average electric bill was (all electric home, no gas). They said it was just under $200/month. Rates here are almost identical, right at $0.10/KWH. I got on the steady payment plan the POs had of $189/month to be safe since we didn't know if our usage would change. Guess what? After a year, our average usage works out to be $194/month. That also equates to just under 2000 KWH/month.
So with two completely different homes our usage is nearly identical. Is that mere coincidence or does a fair amount simply have to do with lifestyle?
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I'd second the home energy audit. It sounds like the main factor is your AC which is going to be affected by your windows, doors, and insulation levels. What kind of AC? If central air, make sure your filters are changed and then you could maybe use a cleaning on the unit. You'll be saving year round on both heating costs and electric costs if you have a properly insulated house with new windows. You should have a really huge layer of insulation in the attic considering you are in MA. Adding insulation is a dirty job to do but not particularly expensive if you do it yourself. If you are adding rolls, go with the no vapor barrier but see what you have first. It could be really old and useless plus some loose fill types have asbestos. Think about your return on investment, that's were you want to make efficiency upgrades. Energy star appliances will save you money but if you look at the yellow tag it's not a lot compared to heating and cooling savings. I understand your predicament, I have to do my windows and I know I will save a lot but I haven't been able to do it either.
Walls can be difficult to upgrade insulation but another place besides the attic is your basement if you have one. Also, the band joists (on top of the foundation wall) can lose a lot as well. These aren't typically insulated in an old house. Pretty inexpensive to do. A little tedious when the floor joists are perpendicular to the outside wall but easy when they are parallel. Use a panel type insulation to keep a good fit against the lumber rather than batts. Spray in insulation on cracks and seams and anywhere air leaks in. Old houses are very leaky compared to modern homes.
Walls can be difficult to upgrade insulation but another place besides the attic is your basement if you have one. Also, the band joists (on top of the foundation wall) can lose a lot as well. These aren't typically insulated in an old house. Pretty inexpensive to do. A little tedious when the floor joists are perpendicular to the outside wall but easy when they are parallel. Use a panel type insulation to keep a good fit against the lumber rather than batts. Spray in insulation on cracks and seams and anywhere air leaks in. Old houses are very leaky compared to modern homes.
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