Are closed transfers worth the extra effort?

[suitbrewing]

Inspired by my fermentasaurus I have purchased an extra pressure kit (ball lock posts and floating racking ball) in order to perform closed transfers from my other fermenting vessels. For instance from my 30L Speidel tank.

I tried it with water and it works pretty well.

Obviously I am not getting all the benefits of a pressurised conical as I will not be fermenting under pressure, or dumping trub and yeast. On the plus it only cost me $20 and I am utilising my existing equipment!

It remains to be seen if the improvement in taste (especially in hoppy beers) is worth the extra cleaning and sanitising and the co2 use??

I really hate wasting CO2 because of the admin involved in refilling my tanks!

 

[LittleRiver]

...It remains to be seen if the improvement in taste (especially in hoppy beers) is worth the extra cleaning and sanitising and the co2 use?? I really hate wasting CO2 because of the admin involved in refilling my tanks!

I'm fairly new to it, but I would say yes it's worth the effort.

I've been using bottled CO2 to purge kegs that are fully filled with StarSan. I use a gravity transfer from the fermenter (that does not use bottled CO2), as shown in the last photo of this post.

@doug293cz describes how fermentation produces plenty of CO2 to fully purge an empty keg of oxygen.

So from now on I'm going to be just rinsing out the keg with Starsan, draining it, and letting fermentation purge it and fill it with CO2. That way I'll be doing closed transfers without using any bottled CO2.

 

[Rodent]

What kind of pressure transfer?

I struggled with O2 staleness in the keg on hoppy beers (especially a NEIPA style), even when 'open purging' a keg prior to gravity transfer thru the open lid via siphon to the bottom.

I have adopted the workflow of CO2 purging a keg filled with Starsan + CO2 pressure transfer from a Fermonster to the purged keg. On my last NEIPA I had no O2 discoloration or loss of hop freshness for the +6 weeks that keg lasted before it blew. Prior to this a NEIPA would start to discolor and noticeably begin losing freshness by the end of the first week.

For the small bit of added work and parts, this is more than worth it IMO/IME. YMMV of course

 

[Genuine]

I just did my first closed transfer and It helped my 2nd NEIPA Immensly. However, I'll give you some tips. Be sure to remove the poppet valve on the out of your keg post and also the "insides" of the ball lock disconnect. I had issues with hop matter clogging and the transfer taking too long. I fill the keg with starsan, push it out with co2, pressure release, and continue on.

 

[mabrungard]

Proper purging and closed transfers have made a huge difference in my beers. Before, my beers were fine as long as they were served cold directly from the keg. But if I counterpressure bottled that beer and set it to competition, it always showed signs of oxidation. I no longer have that problem.

Filling the keg with sanitizer and pushing it out with CO2 is the ONLY way to purge a keg effectively. I've also installed a gas-in fitting on my fermenter so that I can push the beer out of it without introducing air into the fermenter headspace. Very worthwhile changes to my process...in my opinion.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

I use fermentasaurus's and have not found the pressure transfer to be any more effort than any other method. You still need to clean and sanitize the keg and should be purging with CO2 before filling it.

And yes. It definitely helps your beer stay fresher (less oxidation).

Bonus, if you want to run the beer through a filter, it can't get any easier than with that pressure transfer kit. The floating pickup tube is a wonderful thing also.

I did install a weldless thermowell in the fermenter. It basically stays in the chamber from pitching, until its finished and kegged, and ready to be cleaned. I do not however, use it for fermenting under pressure, dispensing or carbing.

 

[suitbrewing]

Yes the fermentasaurus floating racking ball is a brilliant device!

In terms of oxygen free transfers it seems unanimous that they are worthy of the effort!

Its amazing what we homebrewers come up with! Co2 harvesting during fermentation....! Brilliant!!!

The internet seems to think that 2kgs of CO2 will push 1000L of beer. For my 25L sanke kegs its 50L per transfer (25 purging the keg and 25L for beer transfer). So each CO2 refill should last 20 keg fils. Say 15 with waste. If these maths are correct, then its not too bad!

 

[TheMadKing]

I have recently started doing it as well. It's not as daunting as it first appears and it definitely keeps your beer tasting fresh for longer

A question for all you veterans, what's the best way to add fining agents without opening your fermenter or keg?

I'm trying to find a way to do it with an online syringe system (like now you would introduce medication through an IV) but they are hard to find

 

[mongoose33]

I have recently started doing it as well. It's not as daunting as it first appears and it definitely keeps your beer tasting fresh for longer

A question for all you veterans, what's the best way to add fining agents without opening your fermenter or keg?

I'm trying to find a way to do it with an online syringe system (like now you would introduce medication through an IV) but they are hard to find

Best way? Why, the best way is to get those fining agents in there without any oxygen being introduced.

Here's what I'm doing. Is it the best way? I don't know. Anyway, I have a Spike CF10 conical. It has a pressure manifold on the lid through which I can pull off CO2--or pressurize transfer. It's a ball-lock fitting. What I've done is concoct a way to pressure-transfer the finings through that fitting into the beer.

Here is the equipment I use to do this; the bottle was cleaned and sanitized. It'll hold 15psi of pressure or more. I have a bottle-carb fitting on it. I'll mix the finings with water as per normal, put in the bottle. Then I'll purge it a few times with CO2 (charge it, unscrew the cap a bit to vent, repeat). I'll pressurize the bottle of finings to a higher pressure than what's in the fermenter, invert the bottle as shown, and connect.

The pressure in the bottle injects the finings into the fermenter.

Could you use a largish plastic syringe and introduce that through, say, the sampling valve? I think so, provided you can seal things effectively.

 

[applescrap]

Glad this thread popped up, I think many of us are curious and are in the process of going this direction.

 

[yowzers]

Yes, absolutely improved my hoppy beers. You can also inject gelatin solution through the QD on your keg using a cheap plastic syringe without the needle attachment. The small nipple on the syringe fits tightly into my QD. I do that after I push the starsan out of the keg and fill on top of it.

 

[mongoose33]

Is it worth the extra effort?

The only one who can say is you. I think keeping oxygen away from my beer post-fermentation is crucial to preserving the flavors I've worked so hard to produce.

Oxidation is pretty evident in IPAs; less-so in other beers. Oxidized flavors are not perceived equally by everyone. Some are sensitive to oxidation, others less-so.

******

There's a philosophical piece to this for me. I want to produce the best beer possible. I know there are certain things that are counter to that mission--if you can call it that. Oxygen is a biggie. Since very early in my brewing career I've been trying to perfect the process, and eliminating oxygen has been a big part of that.

Can I ever get to the perfect beer? Probably, almost certainly, not. It's sort of like moving toward a wall, halving the distance each time. Can you ever reach it? No....but you can get pretty close.

It's journey, and every time I brew I try to do something better than the last time. Continuous quality improvement, as it were. Eliminating oxygen everywhere I can is part of those steps closer to the wall...er....perfect beer.

******

One thing I've noted--if I can make these improvements a habit, i.e., things I automatically do without even thinking about them much, then it's much less a hassle than it appears to people who don't do them. Yesterday I brewed, and for the first time, I purged my tubing to the mash tun with CO2, the tubing through which I feed the pre-boiled water to underlet the grain. It was just a matter of figuring out how to sequence it, and not that hard. Next time, it'll be easier, and two or three times from now, it won't be a hassle. It'll be part of my process, just like oxygenating starter wort is part of my process.

 

[whovous]

Can I ever get to the perfect beer? Probably, almost certainly, not. It's sort of like moving toward a wall, halving the distance each time. Can you ever reach it? No....but you can get pretty close.

It's journey, and every time I brew I try to do something better than the last time. Continuous quality improvement, as it were. Eliminating oxygen everywhere I can is part of those steps closer to the wall...er....perfect beer.

You've inspired me to rebrand my homebrewery as Zeno's Brewery. I thank you for that.

 

[suitbrewing]

In relation to the above (i.e using corny keg posts which are attached on the fermenter together with the fermentasaurus floating racking ball to conduct oxygen free transfers) does anyone see any contamination risks in using the CO2 post (via a ball lock connector) to connect my blow off tube during fermentation?

Also, I will be transferring into sanke kegs. The plan is to remove the one way valve of the sanke coupler both from the liquid side and the CO2 side. In principle is shouldn’t be different than Corny kegs. Has anyone tries this??

Finally, in line with the comments above around saving CO2. When filling the first purged sanke keg, I could use the CO2 coming out of the keg to partly purge the next Keg (i.e. push starsan out). This way if I keg several beers on the same day my CO2 use will be X+1 (where X=number of kegs to be filled). My normal batch size is 2 kegs anyway!

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

In relation to the above (i.e using corny keg posts which are attached on the fermenter together with the fermentasaurus floating racking ball to conduct oxygen free transfers) does anyone see any contamination risks in using the CO2 post (via a ball lock connector) to connect my blow off tube during fermentation?

Also, I will be transferring into sanke kegs. The plan is to remove the one way valve of the sanke coupler both from the liquid side and the CO2 side. In principle is shouldn’t be different than Corny kegs. Has anyone tries this??

Finally, in line with the comments above around saving CO2. When filling the first purged sanke keg, I could use the CO2 coming out of the keg to partly purge the next Keg (i.e. push starsan out). This way if I keg several beers on the same day my CO2 use will be X+1 (where X=number of kegs to be filled). My normal batch size is 2 kegs anyway!

I used sanke kegs for years and do exactly what you described...remove the ball valve and co2 valves. Purge the keg, then run a hose from the gas port back to the fermenter to replace the space vacated by the beer with co2.

 

[Brewtopalonian]

A lot of your results will depend on whether or not you filter or want to filter your beer. If you do not filter your beer then you shouldn't have too much to worry about as oxygen is taken up by the yeast. However if you filter your beer, then there are no or less yeast available to pick up the oxygen the beer absorbed during transfer, which could lead to stale paper flavor in your beer. If you want to filter your beer then closed transfer is certainly a good idea. If not, most of that spoiling oxygen will get picked up by the yeast during conditioning.

 

[Big Monk]

A lot of your results will depend on whether or not you filter or want to filter your beer. If you do not filter your beer then you shouldn't have too much to worry about as oxygen is taken up by the yeast. However if you filter your beer, then there are no or less yeast available to pick up the oxygen the beer absorbed during transfer, which could lead to stale paper flavor in your beer. If you want to filter your beer then closed transfer is certainly a good idea. If not, most of that spoiling oxygen will get picked up by the yeast during conditioning.

I would be cautious about this type of advice only because it’s only active yeast that is capable of scavenging oxygen at the rate you’d need it to.

Filtering or not, it’s not wise to do anything but closed transfers once fermentation is close to completion.

 

[Iseneye]

A lot of your results will depend on whether or not you filter or want to filter your beer. If you do not filter your beer then you shouldn't have too much to worry about as oxygen is taken up by the yeast. However if you filter your beer, then there are no or less yeast available to pick up the oxygen the beer absorbed during transfer, which could lead to stale paper flavor in your beer. If you want to filter your beer then closed transfer is certainly a good idea. If not, most of that spoiling oxygen will get picked up by the yeast during conditioning.

If you have fermented your beer fully, then transfer, the yeast is no longer active and eating up oxygen (from what I understand anyway). One of the solutions to this is to transfer while the yeast is still working (i.e. still fermenting).

 

[Brewtopalonian]

I would be cautious about this type of advice only because it’s only active yeast that is capable of scavenging oxygen at the rate you’d need it to.

Filtering or not, it’s not wise to do anything but closed transfers once fermentation is close to completion.

Yes, closed transfer is ALWAYS a good idea. Whether or not you plan to filter. The effort/worth needs to be determined based on your own risk assessment. I don't filter my beer and only move it once to a purged keg and then my glass. I still have clear beer and no oxygen issues without a "closed" transfer. (Gravity from conical to keg, with CO2 blanket)

 

[NewJersey]

Yes, closed transfer is ALWAYS a good idea. Whether or not you plan to filter. The effort/worth needs to be determined based on your own risk assessment. I don't filter my beer and only move it once to a purged keg and then my glass. I still have clear beer and no oxygen issues without a "closed" transfer. (Gravity from conical to keg, with CO2 blanket)

c02 "blanket" is a myth

 

[Brewtopalonian]

c02 "blanket" is a myth

Nah, it's not. CO2 is denser than air. Never had oxidation problems with the medals to prove it.

 

[NewJersey]

Nah, it's not. CO2 is denser than air. Never had oxidation problems with the medals to prove it.

you can have a hall full of medals. the c02 blanket is a myth.

 

[Brewtopalonian]

you can have a hall full of medals. the c02 blanket is a myth.

Okay obviously you're right.

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

OH! I Looove the blanket debate!

 

[NewJersey]

OH! I Looove the blanket debate!

if you believe science is a thing there is no debate.

 

[day_trippr]

Molecular motion always wins out over blanket myths...

Cheers!

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

CO2 pressure transfer from a Fermonster to the purged keg

Can you show how you do that? Did you install a QD post?

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

I believe in science. However I think that the term "blanket" in many peoples minds is a well defined layer, like water and oil for example. My personal interpretation of the blanket is a temporary displacement of O2 in a semi enclosed environment.

 

[Rodent]

Can you show how you do that? Did you install a QD post?

I'm doing a PT this week, and will do my best to take images

for parts, I bought a solid Fermonster lid and drilled two holes: one of the size needed to install a grommet so my stainless racking cane 'holds pressure', and the other sized to install a grommet for a hose barb fitting so it 'holds pressure'

if I wasn't fermenting my last batch on the Fermonster before using my new (to me) conicals, I'd have utilized a ball lock gas in post on the lid instead of the hose barb fitting

 

[brewbama]

Closed transfer is no more effort that draining a fermenter thru a QD vs an open lid. It’s the same amount of effort. Too easy NOT to do.

 

[mongoose33]

Nah, it's not. CO2 is denser than air. Never had oxidation problems with the medals to prove it.

Unfortunately, it is a myth. Seems to me @doug293cz the moderator has a post on here demonstrating why that's the case.

CO2 and other elements in the air will mix; you can't stop it.

I have a theory the reason people think "blanket"--and I was in that camp, so I'm not simon-pure here--is that they see dry ice sublimate and the cold gases fall. That's actually water vapor you see condensing out of the air, and because it's so cold, it falls or settles lower. But CO2 will mix with air--and oxygen--and that's just the way gases work.

Later I may try to find the post.

 

[Big Monk]

Unfortunately, it is a myth. Seems to me @doug293cz the moderator has a post on here demonstrating why that's the case.

CO2 and other elements in the air will mix; you can't stop it.

I have a theory the reason people think "blanket"--and I was in that camp, so I'm not simon-pure here--is that they see dry ice sublimate and the cold gases fall. That's actually water vapor you see condensing out of the air, and because it's so cold, it falls or settles lower. But CO2 will mix with air--and oxygen--and that's just the way gases work.

Later I may try to find the post.

Is this the one?:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/keg-purging-with-active-fermentation.628658/

 

[TheMadKing]

Unfortunately, it is a myth. Seems to me @doug293cz the moderator has a post on here demonstrating why that's the case.

CO2 and other elements in the air will mix; you can't stop it.

I have a theory the reason people think "blanket"--and I was in that camp, so I'm not simon-pure here--is that they see dry ice sublimate and the cold gases fall. That's actually water vapor you see condensing out of the air, and because it's so cold, it falls or settles lower. But CO2 will mix with air--and oxygen--and that's just the way gases work.

Later I may try to find the post.

To be fair, a CO2 "blanket" does exist for a second or two if you suddenly expose a CO2 atmosphere to normal air (if you open a liquid purged keg for example). Gas diffusion begins instantly, so yes air gets into the headspace instantly , but if you open a liquid purged keg and siphon beer into it you DO have a protective volume of CO2 over the incoming beer until enough gas diffusion happens for O2 to come into contact with the surface of the beer (probably a few seconds).

CO2 IS heavier than air, so as long as it's concentrated it will fill the lower part of whatever space its in. As soon as gas diffusion happens, the concentration will eventually become uniformly distributed within the container along with whatever other gas is in there. I don't know how long that takes in a CO2/Air environment though.

Does it protect your beer, no not at all, is it completely a backwards idea? Only after a few seconds

 

[eric19312]

I like the question OP.

Lately I'm in a funk with multiple aspects of kegging. I believe I've got a slow leak in my system and wasted 2 bottles of gas. Still not sure where it is but I suspect I need to replace some of my poppets.

When closed transfers go well they add about 90 minutes to my packaging exercise. This comes from the time to purge 3 kegs using the push the star san method followed by the slow filling from the fermentor into those same kegs.

I have a plastic Speidel fermentor sitting in a fridge about 18" off the ground. It is too heavy to lift when full so gravity draining is not an option. I have a large ss dip tube and 1/2 ball valve on the fermentor and a gas post on the lid. I can pressurize it to about 2-3 PSI without blowing the lid. Best of days filling those 3 kegs is very slow.

Most of the time however they simply will not fill. The poppets quickly plug and your closed transfer is over. I have done the thing with taking out the poppet from the post and the plunger from the connector and that works. But now you don't have a sealed system and your closed transfer is compromised anyway.

I am playing with some alternative solutions. One I have had good luck with before is keg priming. Just do a half ass purge, fill the keg, and add some sugar. Just like bottle priming. Unlike bottle priming you can also dry hop the keg at the same time. I never had much issue with settling the yeast, pulling and dumping first 2-3 pints with this method but this year will try the clear beer draft system and see how that goes.

Second strategy I am checking out is a small metabisulfite addition at kegging time. This might be able to remove the oxygen introduced by sloppy kegging. Read about it on one of those experiments and thought I'd give it a try on current batch. Can't say for sure it helped but didn't seem to create any off flavors either and the beer is still drinking well.

Last thing that has always worked well for me is to leave keg one alone, dry hop keg 2 when I start serving keg 1, then dryhop keg 3 when I start serving keg 2. Maybe I am losing hop flavors and aromas to oxidation so just add them back.

Anyway I'd be really curious to hear from homebrewers that have done closed transfers with regular fermentors and then switched over to something like the Spike CF10. Does this make packaging day much easier? Or is it just shifting the work and aggravation around?

 

[TheMadKing]

I like the question OP.

Lately I'm in a funk with multiple aspects of kegging. I believe I've got a slow leak in my system and wasted 2 bottles of gas. Still not sure where it is but I suspect I need to replace some of my poppets.

When closed transfers go well they add about 90 minutes to my packaging exercise. This comes from the time to purge 3 kegs using the push the star san method followed by the slow filling from the fermentor into those same kegs.

I have a plastic Speidel fermentor sitting in a fridge about 18" off the ground. It is too heavy to lift when full so gravity draining is not an option. I have a large ss dip tube and 1/2 ball valve on the fermentor and a gas post on the lid. I can pressurize it to about 2-3 PSI without blowing the lid. Best of days filling those 3 kegs is very slow.

Most of the time however they simply will not fill. The poppets quickly plug and your closed transfer is over. I have done the thing with taking out the poppet from the post and the plunger from the connector and that works. But now you don't have a sealed system and your closed transfer is compromised anyway.

I am playing with some alternative solutions. One I have had good luck with before is keg priming. Just do a half ass purge, fill the keg, and add some sugar. Just like bottle priming. Unlike bottle priming you can also dry hop the keg at the same time. I never had much issue with settling the yeast, pulling and dumping first 2-3 pints with this method but this year will try the clear beer draft system and see how that goes.

Second strategy I am checking out is a small metabisulfite addition at kegging time. This might be able to remove the oxygen introduced by sloppy kegging. Read about it on one of those experiments and thought I'd give it a try on current batch. Can't say for sure it helped but didn't seem to create any off flavors either and the beer is still drinking well.

Last thing that has always worked well for me is to leave keg one alone, dry hop keg 2 when I start serving keg 1, then dryhop keg 3 when I start serving keg 2. Maybe I am losing hop flavors and aromas to oxidation so just add them back.

Anyway I'd be really curious to hear from homebrewers that have done closed transfers with regular fermentors and then switched over to something like the Spike CF10. Does this make packaging day much easier? Or is it just shifting the work and aggravation around?

Why don't you buy a manifold and purge all 3 kegs simultaneously at 20 PSI (should like less than 10 minutes), and cold crash your beer before kegging, or add a filter to the end of your racking cane to prevent hop debris from getting in?

Also on your leak, disconnect all your kegs from your CO2 system but keep the lines charged, and then shut off the gas from the tank. If the lines hold pressure overnight then you know the problem is either in one of your kegs or at the gas post on one of them

 

[mongoose33]

Is this the one?:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/keg-purging-with-active-fermentation.628658/

It's not the one I meant, but it's a great post on purging nonetheless.

This isn't exactly the one I remember, but it's pretty much the same thing:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/help-leaky-fermentation-bucket-lid.580534/#post-7536153

I'm going to take the liberty of quoting it directly and fixing the youtube link from the original.

The protective CO2 blanket is a myth. If it wasn't we would all suffocate since the "air" at ground level would be mostly CO2. Also, check out the video below. Br2 is 3.6 times as heavy as CO2 (159.8 vs. 44), but completely mixes with air in about 30 minutes. CO2 is about the same weight as NO2 (44 vs. 46), which mixes with air even faster than Br2, as shown later in the video. So, please stop spreading the myth about a CO2 blanket.



Brew on

Scotty, as a sort of extension of what you've quoted above (about purging), I've thought about trying to find a way to release CO2 under low pressure down into the BK when I'm transferring wort to it. I use a lauter cap but it's inefficient because I have a whirlpool arm as well as electric element in there, and only when the level rises enough does it work effectively.

So I thought what if I suspended a bit of tubing into the bottom of the kettle so that it would flood the kettle with CO2. It wouldn't form a blanket per se, but it would displace at least some of the oxygen. See what I spend my free time thinking about?

Anyway, as Doug says, "Brew on"

 

[Brewtopalonian]

Fair enough, thanks for the science lesson.

 

[doug293cz]

Unfortunately, it is a myth. Seems to me @doug293cz the moderator has a post on here demonstrating why that's the case.

CO2 and other elements in the air will mix; you can't stop it.

I have a theory the reason people think "blanket"--and I was in that camp, so I'm not simon-pure here--is that they see dry ice sublimate and the cold gases fall. That's actually water vapor you see condensing out of the air, and because it's so cold, it falls or settles lower. But CO2 will mix with air--and oxygen--and that's just the way gases work.

Later I may try to find the post.

I have made a post like this too many times to count. Here's the video that shows gas diffusion in action. Br2 is 3.6 times heavier than CO2, and it homogenizes with still air in about 30 minutes. NO2 (later in the video) is about the same molecular weight as CO2, and you can see it interdiffuses with air much faster than Br2. So, mixing starts immediately, and homogenization of air and CO2 takes much less than 30 minutes.



Brew on

Is this the one?:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/keg-purging-with-active-fermentation.628658/

No, that's not the one mongoose is talking about, but it is a post I am very proud of.

Brew on

Edit: I see mongoose beat me to it.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Why does everyone believe in the principle of diffusion on this thread, yet objects to pouring priming solution into a primary fermenter, mixing gently without disturbing the cake, then waiting say 30 minutes and bottling straight out of primary?

It has worked fine for me, but most will swear you NEED to use a bottling bucket....
Same concept...

 

[Brewtopalonian]

Why does everyone believe in the principle of diffusion on this thread, yet objects to pouring priming solution into a primary fermenter, mixing gently without disturbing the cake, then waiting say 30 minutes and bottling straight out of primary?

It has worked fine for me, but most will swear you NEED to use a bottling bucket....
Same concept...

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Now I'm sure someone is going to chime in and tell me I'm wrong on the basis of yeast autolysis or something of the sort, but I would say it isn't worth racking to secondary and exposing to air. Bottle straight out of primary. Your fine.