Apologies to Revvy

[culturejam]

Hey Revvy,

What are your thoughts on temperature vs the long primary?

I typically let the beer sit in primary (or "only-ary" for me, as I don't secondary) at fermentation temp for about two weeks, and then I move the carboy to my kegerator/lagering fridge for another 3-4 weeks at about 40F. Then I keg and carb for about week before serving.

My beers (ales only) turn out clean and clear, but I wonder if leaving it longer at room temp post-fermentation would be better than moving it to cold storage so quickly?

 

[pj_rage]

I know it's not the point of this thread, but I thought IPAs were best consumed "fresh". How do most of you define "fresh", like, within what time frame? The OP had seems to have fermented one for 8+ months and claims it's one of, if not the best IPA he's ever had. Is there two sides to the "fresh" coin here?

 

[cheezydemon3]

Hey Revvy,

What are your thoughts on temperature vs the long primary?

I typically let the beer sit in primary (or "only-ary" for me, as I don't secondary) at fermentation temp for about two weeks, and then I move the carboy to my kegerator/lagering fridge for another 3-4 weeks at about 40F. Then I keg and carb for about week before serving.

My beers (ales only) turn out clean and clear, but I wonder if leaving it longer at room temp post-fermentation would be better than moving it to cold storage so quickly?

Sorry, I gotta jump on that. 2 weeks of conditioning?...........WOW. Beer improves vastly by the 6 week or so mark. You are nowhere close.

while lager yeast will sluggishly do some conditioning in a fridge, Ale yeast goes to sleep while you "lager" the ale out of you ales.

got news for you, YOU LIKE LAGERS.


If that is what you like, "CLEAN, CRISP," etc. You should just make some lagers.

I have no problem with that, but hearing about people lagering their ales makes my skin crawl.

Is it still good? Sure, is it just 1/3 of the wonderful beer it would be after 6 weeks at room temps? Absolutely.

 

[culturejam]

got news for you, YOU LIKE LAGERS.

I've got news for you: Lagers are okay, but ales are way better (to me). Cold conditioning doesn't magically turn an ale into a lager, at least not in my anecdotal experience.

I've done primaries as long as 8 weeks at ferm temps in the past, but it's been a while (a couple years). They are also pretty clean. And by clean I mean no oddball flavors. I love a fruity, estery ale. I just mean it sorta shaves off any potential funk. Hell, I usually ferment a fair bit higher than recommended for a given yeast strain just to get the extra "ale" taste.

I have no problem with that, but hearing about people lagering their ales makes my skin crawl.

Wow, didn't mean to get you all upset with the beer that I'm making that you don't have to drink.

Next time I want to know what I like and what I think and what I should be doing, I'll just ask you directly.

 

[cheezydemon3]

Feel Free.

My anecdotal evidence is My DAD.

I used to bottle my batch, give a sixer or a 12 to the old man.

I let mine sit warm until I need to stick a few in the fridge.

They get so progressively better after 5 or 6 weeks, that I hate to let them go any less than that.

I would drink one at home lets say 6 weeks in the bottle. Next night, at my parents I would have the same beerala my dad's basement fridge. The drastic drop of flavor was undeniable.

He doesn't drink that much, so the anecdotal evidence is staggering and constantly available.

SWMBO's favorite "floral" ale that I made: 6 months in the bottle, WOW. Delicious. 6 months in my dad's fridge? I couldn't taste it. It tasted like miller lite.

I AM SURE YOUR BEERS ARE GOOD! Lagers can be good too, and flavorful, look at Marzens(oktoberfest) but would that same marzen have a lot more flavor without the extended refridgeration? You BETCHA.

I wish you well and hope you have an open mind.

Sorry, but your "crash and store cold" approach is rampant on this site, and I don't have time to convert everyone.

Remember the first rule of brewing? PATIENCE.

 

[culturejam]

They get so progressively better after 5 or 6 weeks, that I hate to let them go any less than that.

Now see, that's the info I was looking for. Thanks!



So I'll have to split a batch and put half on the cool and leave half at room temp and see which I prefer at the end of 6 or so weeks.

Hmm. Now I wonder if bulk aging in a carboy or keg is comparable to the individualized conditioning going on in bottles? Looks like I'll have to split batches on temps and serving containers.

 

[cheezydemon3]

Now see, that's the info I was looking for. Thanks!



So I'll have to split a batch and put half on the cool and leave half at room temp and see which I prefer at the end of 6 or so weeks.

Hmm. Now I wonder if bulk aging in a carboy or keg is comparable to the individualized conditioning going on in bottles? Looks like I'll have to split batches on temps and serving containers.

The "bulk" debate is one I'd like your results on!

Aging for a year in the bottle is a beautiful thing, but would 9 months in a carboy and 3 in the bottle be better?

Hard to say.

*my dad's fridge freezes stuff in the back, so it is probably an extreme example, but it definitely proves that flavor can be "lagered" out of an ale*

 

[culturejam]

Aging for a year in the bottle is a beautiful thing, but would 9 months in a carboy and 3 in the bottle be better?

Hard to say.

I'll never know, because I'm not going to tie up a carboy for that long.

I don't mind doing a three-month test, but a year is too much for me. I get sidetracked much too easily. I'll forget about it.

Side story: I took three or four bottles of a dubbel I made to my mother-in-law's house for Xmas Eve a few years ago. The next year on Xmas Eve, I noticed that there was still a bottle of it way in the back of the fridge. It tasted pretty damn good. Obviously some of the spicy character of the yeast flavor had diminished, but it was still quite excellent. And super smoooooooooth.

 

[Revvy]

I'm not answering questions in this thread, afaic EVERY question about this has already been answered several thousand times on here already. INCLUDING in the Jamil/Palmer thread. Most of it by me...I've put the info all over this place. It's really up to folks to do their own digging of what's already been said.

And that is NOT what this thread is supposed to be about anyway...

For 2011 I'm only presenting the info as if it is already a fact that the info has been presented on here in depth. Including what I've pretty much been doing over the last 6 months linking to the Jamil/Palmer thread. But NOT answering additional questions in the thread when someone asked (about temp, what kind of vessel, etc) since I KNOW the answers are already there.

 

[culturejam]

I'm not answering questions in this thread, afaic EVERY question about this has already been answered several thousand times on here already.

Alrighty, then.

 

[monty3777]

Hey Revvy,

What are your thoughts on temperature vs the long primary?

I typically let the beer sit in primary (or "only-ary" for me, as I don't secondary) at fermentation temp for about two weeks, and then I move the carboy to my kegerator/lagering fridge for another 3-4 weeks at about 40F. Then I keg and carb for about week before serving.

My beers (ales only) turn out clean and clear, but I wonder if leaving it longer at room temp post-fermentation would be better than moving it to cold storage so quickly?

It sounds like your process works for you and you should keep it up. I think I added some fuel to a pretty pathetic little fire by posting what I hoped would be a Yuletide peace offering. However, I think that long periods of time in a fermenter are certainly no magic bullet for good beers. It certainly doesn't hurt - but I should also add that my process during the brews were as good as they have ever been. That certainly added to the quality of the brew as they were AG brews and I have learned a lot over the last year and a half about the process. I don't think you need anyone's opinion about how you handle your fermentation.

 

[smata67]

There really is no substitute for learning from one's own experience, whether it's making beer or some other vastly more important life issue.

 

[culturejam]

I don't think you need anyone's opinion about how you handle your fermentation.

I don't necessarily need anyone's opinion, but in this case I wanted some thoughts on the whole temp issue with regard to what was once called "extended" primary. I have a lot of my own experience, but I feel like sharing experiences amongst fellow brewers can benefit everyone. I mean, that's kinda the whole purpose of a forum, as I see it.

If I didn't want people chiming in, I definitely would post stuff in a public forum.

 

[bwomp313]

quadrupleary

 

[biochemedic]

They get so progressively better after 5 or 6 weeks, that I hate to let them go any less than that.

I would drink one at home lets say 6 weeks in the bottle. Next night, at my parents I would have the same beerala my dad's basement fridge. The drastic drop of flavor was undeniable
.....................
SWMBO's favorite "floral" ale that I made: 6 months in the bottle, WOW. Delicious. 6 months in my dad's fridge? I couldn't taste it. It tasted like miller lite.

Do you think this could just be perception? Does it really *prove* that you can "lager flavor out of an ale?" IE, do you just need to let the beer warm up so the aromas and flavors can represent themselves? Just think of that barleywine that you sip on for a half hour or more, and how the aromas and flavors change as it warms up in your snifter glass.... Perhaps ales are just meant to be consumed warmer, regardless of how they're stored? (I believe so...I generally drink my beer at my downstairs "room temp" of mid 60's *F.)

Remember the first rule of brewing? PATIENCE

+1! I learned this from my meadmaking...be more relaxed and hands off, and let the yeast do what they do... I was very excited when I started to learn (from this board, BTW) that I could have the same approach to my beers without risking off flavors! Low and behold, I found that not only did I NOT risk off flavors, I seemed to have better beer with LESS off flavors once I let my primaries linger.

 

[osagedr]

Are there a lot of commercial breweries moving to extended time on the yeast?

 

[ZooKeeper]

seems to me the key might be extended aging whether it's in the primary, secondary, bottle or keg.

I've found extended cold aging of bottles to be very effective.

+1

 

[ZooKeeper]

Remember the first rule of brewing? PATIENCE.

I thought it was SANITIZE?

 

[rjwhite41]

Are there a lot of commercial breweries moving to extended time on the yeast?

I don't believe so. They like profits (quicker to the door quicker to the pocket) and the weight of all the yeast in their fementors causes autolysis.

 

[DannyG]

Does anyone have any thoughts on extended primaries vs extended bottle conditioning? Will a few weeks in primary and then two months in a bottle give you a beer that's as good as a beer that's two months in primary, then a few weeks in bottle?

 

[D0ug]

Does anyone have any thoughts on extended primaries vs extended bottle conditioning? Will a few weeks in primary and then two months in a bottle give you a beer that's as good as a beer that's two months in primary, then a few weeks in bottle?

Only one way to find out for sure

 

[sudbuster]

Are there a lot of commercial breweries moving to extended time on the yeast?

Whoot!!! LMFAO. I'm sure Duvel and Unibroue are just chompng the bits
Their beers leave the breweries at about three months and spend 5 days in primary. It's hard to get a staff of microbioligists who know the pathways by heart from scientific evidence to give credince to a bunch homebrewers goofing around in their garages making preposterous judgements based on assumptions. And that includes a metalurgist amatuer brewer and his bud giving advice about brewing. IMO, no credentials, no listen to........

 

[Newbeerguy]

Are there a lot of commercial breweries moving to extended time on the yeast?

I toured the Great Lakes Brewery last month and I was told that they only leave their beer on the yeast 1 week for ales and 2 for lagers. I am unsure of other commercial breweries but that is their take on the matter.

 

[D0ug]

Commercial breweries? C'mon...

Most of them just want to get a reproducible product out the door as quickly as possible. The rest is just process refinement, with maximizing ROI to the shareholder as the top priority.

 

[veritas524]

What's a choad?

It's the spot between the balls and the butt

 

[Bensiff]

Have you ever opened an old bottle conditioned beer to find it tastes like someone put beer, rubber, and meat into a Bass-O-Matic? Probably not

 

[togabear]

Sort of in the same vein as this, I just brewed a mild in a keg using the gas disconnect as my blow off tube. I tried just putting that keg I fermented in the fridge, crash cooled it. Its an mild, so I warmed my kegerator back up to cellar temp and served from the keg I brewed in.

Its good, after two cloudy pints its relatively clear and drinkable! I thought it would be yeast soup and I though I would have to rack off into another keg! I think I only got away with this because of low gravity and using an flocculent English ale yeast.

Screw my primary. Extended aging on yeast cake in the fridge, no risk of oxidation, lower risk of contamination, clean beer, fresh (but not green) tasking beer.

 

[ndsgr]

So are we going to cover peeing into your carboy to sanitize now?

 

[togabear]

That's what Budweiser does

 

[billtzk]

I know it's not the point of this thread, but I thought IPAs were best consumed "fresh". How do most of you define "fresh", like, within what time frame? The OP had seems to have fermented one for 8+ months and claims it's one of, if not the best IPA he's ever had. Is there two sides to the "fresh" coin here?

Yup, really off topic. But then this thread has begun to wander all over the place anyway.

You're probably thinking of wheat beers. General wisdom is that they are best consumed young.

Without getting into the primary versus secondary question (i.e., where the aging occurs), an IPA will benefit from bulk or bottle aging for a month or so after fermentation is complete before drinking, like any other pale ale.