anyone doing protein rest with their RIMS?

[ba-brewer]

Would like to know if there are people doing protein rests with their RIMS and how they are doing it.

I have attempted to do a protein rest with my RIMS a couple of time and have ended up with scorching on the element. One time I ended up dumping in the middle of the mash and the other times if mostly just caused a darkening of the wort. I have seen some posts about other people having similar issues but did not see any solutions other than switching to a HERMS.

I have been having a issue with chill haze with my lagers and want to see if I can clear it up with a protein rest. I used to use gelatin but after getting a whiff of the heated solution I have been trying to avoid it if I can.

I am using this 1650W foldback element.
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/element1650_tc.htm

I don't get scorching if I mash in close to 150 or after any ramps upward from that point, only when I tried to start in the 130s. The look of the mash definitely looked different very milky. I do a fairly thin mash with about 5gal for 9 or 10lb of grain. There is only about a quart of liquid in the RIMS and associated tubing.

I use a ezboil DSPR300 now, but also have a DSPR310D for a panel upgrade so I am thinking about trying that one next attempt to see if playing with the Mout option helps.

I use weyerman pilsner malts in my lagers, both the floor malted bohemian and the standard process too.

 

[augiedoggy]

I thought there was another thread about this recently too but from what Ive come across that can happen from protien buildup on the element surface cooking to the surface if the flow isnt fast enough to keep the hotter surface temp from being on at 100% full power long enough for the element surface to reach full temp. You get localized boiling and can see it if you install a sight glass in the rims tube as I have. This is why I use the longer cartridge heaters with lower watt density myself. I also dont turn my rims heater on until I have run my recirc for a few minutes to help settle the grainbed and clear up the wort traveling through the rims.

I did one brew session on my larger system in this manor and found the rims elements gets the slimey buildup but no scorching.. if I had used higher watt density elements I would suspect I would get the black burnt buildup on the element known as scorched wort. if I mash in only a few degrees low and use the rims to reach and maintain I get no buildup... but I also discovered if I do a mashout with the rims and take the mash to 168 from say 152 I get very little buildup this way as well from the clearer wort after the grainbed has made a fine filter.

People have also reported scorching with the ULWD ripples because of the same reasons in BIAB or basket setups with the element on under the mash bag or basket if the flow around the element isnt adequate

 

[ba-brewer]

There was a recent post/thread about scorching but with regard to using 100% power on his RIMS. I do think his low starting temp may be a similar situation to the issues I have with the protein rest.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/rims-upgrade-either-slow-or-scorched-please-help.662982/

My RIMS is oriented vertically so settling on the element should not be an issue, might try a faster flow to see how that goes. One of the attempts I stopped circulating during the protein rest and waited to turn on the rims for a while after the pump ran but still had scorching.

Wondering if adding one of the lower temp rests prior to the protein might change the viscosity of the mash and prevent the scorching.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I don't get scorching with protein rests, but do get a buildup of gunk (starch? Proteins?) on my element which I don't like, so I now mash thick and don't recirculate for my protein rest, then raise to about 62C/144F by infusion, leave it for 5 to 10 minutes, then start recirculating and heating.

 

[augiedoggy]

There was a recent post/thread about scorching but with regard to using 100% power on his RIMS. I do think his low starting temp may be a similar situation to the issues I have with the protein rest.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/rims-upgrade-either-slow-or-scorched-please-help.662982/

My RIMS is oriented vertically so settling on the element should not be an issue, might try a faster flow to see how that goes. One of the attempts I stopped circulating during the protein rest and waited to turn on the rims for a while after the pump ran but still had scorching.

Wondering if adding one of the lower temp rests prior to the protein might change the viscosity of the mash and prevent the scorching.

by scorching we are talking black flaky burn film on the element right? or are you speaking of the tan/brown protien slim buildup?

 

[ba-brewer]

by scorching we are talking black flaky burn film on the element right? or are you speaking of the tan/brown protien slim buildup?

yes the element had a black build up but I don't recall it being too flaky though. For sure not the normal lighter colored pale tan stuff.

I don't get scorching with protein rests, but do get a buildup of gunk (starch? Proteins?) on my element which I don't like, so I now mash thick and don't recirculate for my protein rest, then raise to about 62C/144F by infusion, leave it for 5 to 10 minutes, then start recirculating and heating.

I have thought about this approach so glad to hear it works for you. If does add some complexity to my process as I run from two 120V circuits so I have been reluctant to go that way.

 

[BBBF]

There was a recent post/thread about scorching but with regard to using 100% power on his RIMS. I do think his low starting temp may be a similar situation to the issues I have with the protein rest...

I have a different PID than most, but this might apply. I have a separate ramp up setting. Even if my element is set at 50% power, it can still call for 100% power when heating up. I could see it not being a big deal if my strike water was off several degrees and I was only trying bring it a few degrees, but a huge deal if I was trying to go from 115 to 152.

 

[ba-brewer]

I was going from like 135 to 150, but was also heating with 100% pwr at 135 for a couple of the tries.

 

[ba-brewer]

Understood on the automation... wasn't suggesting that. But RIMs: I've done all temp rests and ranges without issue.

I use a special UWLD RIMS so it may not be a fair comparison, but I did previously use a regular 1375W foldback without issue. THat said, I think you should always:
1. Have the tube vertically oriented.
2. Have the temp sensor right at the top.
3. Make sure the flow is at least 2 gals per minute.

Moving this information to this thread incase someone stumbles across this thread

Checked my flow rate last brew and I am probably at 1.2 to 1.5gal per min, will do a few more brews trying to up the flow rate to 2 gals per minute before trying my next protein rest.

Thanks BrunDog.

 

[postalbunny]

I'm not really seeing any buildup... but I don't get a look at my element until I've already cleaned. I also use a cartridge element similar to augiedoggy because I thought it would be much easier to clean. I got one with a NPT base and screwed it into an element adapter in my RIMS tube.

I've got a mini CIP setup kind of... i swap my mlt hose that sits on the grainbed with small sprayball. Then using existing piping i recirc pbw heating to 130 and hold for 30min while i'm boiling/cooling my wort. Then I transfer the PBW to the boil kettle when it's ready to clean that and run sanitizer in the MLT for 30 min... by the time I get a look at my 2kw cartridge it's squeaky clean.

 

[chrilr]

I step mash with a 3500w element and don't have any issues with scorching. I also recirc for a few minutes before turning the element on. The pump is a little black dc one run wide ass open

 

[augiedoggy]

I step mash with a 3500w element and don't have any issues with scorching. I also recirc for a few minutes before turning the element on. The pump is a little black dc one run wide ass open

I run my little tan dc pump wide open too but I dont start it that way, I increase the speed over a period of the first few minutes until its wide open, The big difference here that should be mentioned is these little dc pumps like the foodgrade and the solar pond pumps many use are only 2-3.5 gallons per minute flow and the grainbed brings flow down to usually around 1.5 to 2.5 gpm range where if someone is using a AC homebrewing pump like a march or chugger they are over twice the flowrate at around 7gpm and ideally need to be restricted way down for many homebrewing sized mashtuns for best results.

 

[arla]

I'm using that same element that the OP mentioned, this is a picture from my last brewday after I took the element out, on closer inspection it does look like there is some small amount of scorching, although not convinced.

The ramp-up followed the below schedule

1. 10 minutes at 55C

9 minute ramp up​

2. 40 minutes at 63.3C

5 minute ramp up​

3. 30 minutes at 70C

2 minute ramp up​

4. 15 minutes at 75.6C

I ran the pump the entire time (from heating water for Mash-in all the way through Mash-out) but after getting to initial temp the heater didn't run for a bit because after adding grain the initial temp was a little high (58 vs 55) so it took a couple of minutes to cool down enough where heat was applied.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/geUvRxZ7b2h22BuC7

 

[postalbunny]

Hard to believe scorching with such low wattage... even if it is short. Is it possible at any time the pump stopped or had slow flow? If not then it may just be to high density for watttage/length/area. Only options to combat that would be to pump faster (rice hulls or larger crush) or set the max in the pid so it never fires at 100%. Auberin has a setting where you can set the "max" the auto will hit... if you had a 5kw element you could technically set it to like 20% and only be on 20% even when calling for full heat.

But at the low watt your at the ramp times would be crazy high. Im using a cartridge heater 19" long and 3/4 thick at 2kw. No issues, i also do not do protein rest though.

 

[ba-brewer]

On the last few brews I have been running my pump faster and swapped out the old EZ-boil with the new and improved one which allows lowering the max power used. I recirculated at about 2gal/min maybe a but faster and the power set to 80%. It had less build up on my element and it seems to be lighter in color than the past. Even thought the top of mash looks cloudy with the faster flow the wort draining to the BK is very clear and I seem to have less small particles getting through.

I have a Lager planned for next week so I will give a protein rest another go with the above changes.

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm using that same element that the OP mentioned, this is a picture from my last brewday after I took the element out, on closer inspection it does look like there is some small amount of scorching, although not convinced.

The ramp-up followed the below schedule

1. 10 minutes at 55C

9 minute ramp up​

2. 40 minutes at 63.3C

5 minute ramp up​

3. 30 minutes at 70C

2 minute ramp up​

4. 15 minutes at 75.6C

I ran the pump the entire time (from heating water for Mash-in all the way through Mash-out) but after getting to initial temp the heater didn't run for a bit because after adding grain the initial temp was a little high (58 vs 55) so it took a couple of minutes to cool down enough where heat was applied.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/geUvRxZ7b2h22BuC7

that does appear to be scorching under the lighter coating. step mashing is where I still sometimes see s slimy light buildup from the proteins which stick to the much hotter element surface than it would be when maintaining temps. oddly enough some beers do it and some dont.

 

[augiedoggy]

Hard to believe scorching with such low wattage... even if it is short. Is it possible at any time the pump stopped or had slow flow? If not then it may just be to high density for watttage/length/area. Only options to combat that would be to pump faster (rice hulls or larger crush) or set the max in the pid so it never fires at 100%. Auberin has a setting where you can set the "max" the auto will hit... if you had a 5kw element you could technically set it to like 20% and only be on 20% even when calling for full heat.

But at the low watt your at the ramp times would be crazy high. Im using a cartridge heater 19" long and 3/4 thick at 2kw. No issues, i also do not do protein rest though.

brucontrol has this max output feature as well on the pid settings but I havent needed it yet myself. your correct that the watt density has everything to do with the scorching and not the power, I had to dump a 10 gallon batch of brown ale once due to bad scorching from an 800w 10" long rims cartridge heater in my first rims setup. the flow was just too slow and the watt density too high.

 

[chrilr]

that does appear to be scorching under the lighter coating. step mashing is where I still sometimes see s slimy light buildup from the proteins which stick to the much hotter element surface than it would be when maintaining temps. oddly enough some beers do it and some dont.

Have you noticed any grains that give more of a build up, on the element, than others?

 

[golfindia]

I have changed my rims tube configuration around a few times over the years. I'm convinced that the most important aspect of design is making sure the temp sensor is right next to the heater element. Once the unnavoidable film starts to coat the heater element, you need to have almost zero lag time in the feedback loop or that film is going to burn. When the lag time is reduced, it also makes flow rate less critical. I would like to figure out a way to wedge a thermowell between the folds of a foldback element.

 

[augiedoggy]

Have you noticed any grains that give more of a build up, on the element, than others?

no but my brewing partner suggested we start recording the instances and comparing grainbills.

Unlike the post above suggests there is zero chance of the film burning on my rims due to the extremely low ULWD surface area, This is afterall the main reason my rims is just over 5 ft long and has 56" of heating element with only 4400w total. I do has the heating element close to the temp probe as suggested above and concur with that suggestion.

The buildup I get looks almost white and always wipes right off with a rag without scrubbing.

The element I use at home in my rims has an even lower watt density so that looks completely clean 90% of the time after brewing.

 

[postalbunny]

I have changed my rims tube configuration around a few times over the years. I'm convinced that the most important aspect of design is making sure the temp sensor is right next to the heater element. Once the unnavoidable film starts to coat the heater element, you need to have almost zero lag time in the feedback loop or that film is going to burn. When the lag time is reduced, it also makes flow rate less critical. I would like to figure out a way to wedge a thermowell between the folds of a foldback element.

ditto... i put my temp probe directly next to the cartridge and actually used the "top" to exit my rims tube. I also have a flow sensor so i'm not heating if there is no flow, but also with the temp sensor in place it won't heat the liquid in tube past my set temp anyway. So far about 10 batches and i like this setup better than the previous herms system.

 

[augiedoggy]

ditto... i put my temp probe directly next to the cartridge and actually used the "top" to exit my rims tube. I also have a flow sensor so i'm not heating if there is no flow, but also with the temp sensor in place it won't heat the liquid in tube past my set temp anyway. So far about 10 batches and i like this setup better than the previous herms system.

same setup I have. and because im able to raise the temp so many degrees in one pass the element really doesnt need to be on very much and never reaches 100% max element temp unless im stepping or doing a mashout.

 

[postalbunny]

same setup I have. and because im able to raise the temp so many degrees in one pass the element really doesnt need to be on very much and never reaches 100% max element temp unless im stepping or doing a mashout.

I actually patterned my setup after yours... I thought having a normal loopback element would be to hard to clean, and the cartridge ones are great for just wiping down. Turns out that by running the sparge water through the tube it basically cleans it. I still run PBW through as i'm cleaning the mashtun but it isn't required.

The only diff on mine is i went with the 3/4 NPT one so I could put a 3/4<>1" adapter and use a normal triclamp element housing. I got the longest one I could find which was 19" at 2kw and took up almost the entire standard 2-part RIMS enclosure... allowing me to put the probe in the side and be half an inch away from the element.

 

[ba-brewer]

Did a mash the other day with a higher flow rate(2gal/min+) and 75% power(1237W) for a protein rest and 85% power(1402W) for the sac rest and had no scorching. The mash was 95% American 2row 5% abbey and it did not look as milky as the pilsner mashes I tried protein rests with in the past, but the build up on the element was the least I have ever had. Will do a pilsner mash in a few days.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

I agree that a longer heating element is better for increased contact time and lower watt density. My biggest issue with the cartridge heaters is that most of the inexpensive ones out there are not designed for immersion in liquid - the bottom of the heater is not sealed and therefore can't be set into the fluid. This presents a bit of a design challenge if you want the RIMS tube to be self draining. Nothing that can't be solved, but if you want vertical mount for your RIMS tube, it makes it difficult.

I would suggest this as a compromise vs. the cartridge heater: https://ebrewsupply.com/collections...4-stainless-steel-element-6000w-straight-208v. At 120V, it's 2,000W, which is plenty for RIMS. Electric Brewing Supply also has a 240V version, which would give you a lot of power if you wanted to do on-demand sparge water heating, but reduce the duty cycle or voltage for RIMS applications (it's way too much power for RIMS...).

At 22" long, you get a lot of surface area and contact time. Since it has 1" NPS threads like every other water heater element, it can fit in most of the RIMS tube designs that are out there if you add an extension to the tube in order to meet the longer length.

Now, if I was starting from scratch, I'd go with the Quadzilla, but since I already have the 1" NPS based RIMS tube, I went with the Electric Brewing Supply element.

 

[postalbunny]

No joke... that quadzilla is nice; the $130 price tag isn't though. 5500watts at 18" long seems like a bit much. I'm at 2kw and the same length, but i'm only ramping 1-2degF a minute and keeping temps stable. If i wanted to heat strike water or mash water with it i guess it's a good alternative.

I ended up with this cartridge heater which had an NPT fitting and allowed me to use a 3/4<>1" NPT bushing to get it into an element housing. I was unable to find anyone with 240v elements at any higher rating without custom ordering.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0789L2J9Q/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[postalbunny]

i stand corrected... that is 19mm in diameter, but 15.5 inches long. The quadzilla is 15 inches long as well and they recommend a 16-18inch enclosure.

 

[augiedoggy]

I actually patterned my setup after yours... I thought having a normal loopback element would be to hard to clean, and the cartridge ones are great for just wiping down. Turns out that by running the sparge water through the tube it basically cleans it. I still run PBW through as i'm cleaning the mashtun but it isn't required.

The only diff on mine is i went with the 3/4 NPT one so I could put a 3/4<>1" adapter and use a normal triclamp element housing. I got the longest one I could find which was 19" at 2kw and took up almost the entire standard 2-part RIMS enclosure... allowing me to put the probe in the side and be half an inch away from the element.

my 3bbl setup uses regular tri clamp tubing and 2 28" elements which are only 1/2" diameter. and 2200w each. I get up to 5 degrees rise at 4.5-5gpm

I wonder if the larger diameter of your rims tubing being larger is whats making the difference here vs just the extra length of mine at the same power output. I use 1" stainless pipe and my element is 5/8 diameter. this gives me just under 3 degrees per minute rise in most cases at 1.8gpm flow with zero scorching.

my 3bbl rims is a different story.

 

[augiedoggy]

I agree that a longer heating element is better for increased contact time and lower watt density. My biggest issue with the cartridge heaters is that most of the inexpensive ones out there are not designed for immersion in liquid - the bottom of the heater is not sealed and therefore can't be set into the fluid. This presents a bit of a design challenge if you want the RIMS tube to be self draining. Nothing that can't be solved, but if you want vertical mount for your RIMS tube, it makes it difficult.

I would suggest this as a compromise vs. the cartridge heater: https://ebrewsupply.com/collections...4-stainless-steel-element-6000w-straight-208v. At 120V, it's 2,000W, which is plenty for RIMS. Electric Brewing Supply also has a 240V version, which would give you a lot of power if you wanted to do on-demand sparge water heating, but reduce the duty cycle or voltage for RIMS applications (it's way too much power for RIMS...).

At 22" long, you get a lot of surface area and contact time. Since it has 1" NPS threads like every other water heater element, it can fit in most of the RIMS tube designs that are out there if you add an extension to the tube in order to meet the longer length.

Now, if I was starting from scratch, I'd go with the Quadzilla, but since I already have the 1" NPS based RIMS tube, I went with the Electric Brewing Supply element.

brewhardware makes a tri clamp adapter that allows the element to slip right in a compression fitting and threa into the threaded female hole of the triclamp which also has a threaded fitting to mount an electrical box on the other end.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

brewhardware makes a tri clamp adapter that allows the element to slip right in a compression fitting and threa into the threaded female hole of the triclamp which also has a threaded fitting to mount an electrical box on the other end.

Yeah, I considered that - however, I think your earlier point about the diameter of the RIMS tube is applicable. If you have a lot of volume in between the heater and the RIMS tube, the flow velocity is reduced and can lead back to the main point of this thread: protein buildup. Since most of the RIMS tubes on the market are 1-1/2", and most cartridge heaters are 1/2"-3/4" in diameter, that leaves a decent amount of space between the heater wall and tube wall. This means a much slower flow velocity through the tube, which can lead to buildup on the heater. Flow rate is not the same thing as flow velocity...

I went with a schedule 40 1-1/4" Pipe nipple as my RIMS tube; put a custom cap fitting on the top that allows me to thread the 1" NPS fitting into the top, with a side port right at the top to prevent any air pocket. This is less expensive than a Tri-Clamp RIMS tube but it does require access to a good machinist/welder to make the custom fitting.

I recognize this probably isn't the solution most people will do, but it works for me and I've presented it as just one way to get it done. I think it's worthwhile to give as many possible solutions to these issues, so people can determine what will work the best for them. I know I've personally gotten a lot of value by reading everyone's build threads and gaining inspiration from them.

 

[augiedoggy]

I used regular 1" stainless pipe nipples with regular tees at each end with reducers however now I see they have tees with a reduced female opening in them. I used a larger 1" camlock fitting to pull the end tee with the element mounted in it and to be able to clean out the rims easily if need be. I have never needed to disassemble my fittings in my rims tube dispite it being threaded together.. I do run pbw through it to clean though.
at the brewpub its a different story, I use tri clamp spools and tees to make it all more sanitary.

 

[postalbunny]

I also use my chugger to pump for mash recirc, probably about the speed of those tan pumps at full bore. That faster speed may be why i'm not seeing protein build up. My cartridge eleme is 19mm, so about 3/4" in diameter so it's on the larger side.

I also don't do a protein rest, I've never done a batch with under-modified malts.

 

[BrunDog]

I would like to figure out a way to wedge a thermowell between the folds of a foldback element.

Maybe you are joking, but you wouldn’t want this. The liquid is heated along the whole element.

Which brings up another important consideration. The RIMs tube design should minimize the dead space inside and maximize turbulent flow (or at least prompt good mixing). Heating the liquid in a laminar manner, meaning the same liquid runs along the surface of the element is not desirable. In order to achieve a net liquid temp, that heated liquid is mixed with a lot of unheated liquid, which means it needs to get hot and impart that heat “locally” to a small volume of liquid. However when the heat gets rapidly distributed, local heating is reduced.

You can either wrap your element in stainless wire or add baffles to aid in mixing. Using the smallest tube diameter to fit the element is also desirable.

 

[golfindia]

Maybe you are joking, but you wouldn’t want this. The liquid is heated along the whole element.

No. I'm not joking.

Have you tried it?

 

[augiedoggy]

No. I'm not joking.

Have you tried it?

I once bought a cartridge heater with an actual j type temp probe built into it... I could not get it to work and maintain steady temps. I imagine there might be a similiar case here although I assume you mean to wedge a probe into a space between folds at the far exit end on the element which may work if the rims had enough time to reach an equilibium there. on some elements there are hotter spots depending on how the element is made.

 

[augiedoggy]

I also use my chugger to pump for mash recirc, probably about the speed of those tan pumps at full bore. That faster speed may be why i'm not seeing protein build up. My cartridge eleme is 19mm, so about 3/4" in diameter so it's on the larger side.

I also don't do a protein rest, I've never done a batch with under-modified malts.

Modified malt vs unmodified conversation aside, We had a mistake on our first brew session with the 3bbl system and mashed in at the 130s range... a stuck flow issue caused it to take hours and turn into a step mash of sorts, the result was a higher gravity super clear dry beer with a final gravity of 1.002 the mash profile definitely made the beer clear up quickly compared to how it normally comes out. We called it Oops blond ale and it was the first of our beers to run out last night as people really liked it. That said we have since brewed it again the correct way and it was cloudy going into the brite tank the other day.

 

[brewbama]

Modified malt vs unmodified conversation aside, We had a mistake on our first brew session with the 3bbl system and mashed in at the 130s range... a stuck flow issue caused it to take hours and turn into a step mash of sorts, the result was a higher gravity super clear dry beer with a final gravity of 1.002 the mash profile definitely made the beer clear up quickly compared to how it normally comes out. We called it Oops blond ale and it was the first of our beers to run out last night as people really liked it. That said we have since brewed it again the correct way and it was cloudy going into the brite tank the other day.

Interesting. My last brew I had unterteig issues that clogged my filter bag. I had to stop and start a cpl times at different step temps so your episode gives me hope. When I dumped the grain bag there was a definite layer of teig. Not sure if it was the Barke Pils, the Acidulated malt, the Melanoidin malt, or what.

 

[BrunDog]

No. I'm not joking.

Have you tried it?

No. Because physics. Your element/local liquid temp will not be the exit temp.

 

[golfindia]

No. Because physics. Your element/local liquid temp will not be the exit temp.

Ok. Well, you do you, brah.

Because, Physics.