Any (US) Electricians Here?

[LBussy]

I need to ask a question that's very off-topic for HBT but this seemed like a good place to catch the Electricians in the house. I have a question about my home service and would appreciate it if one of you would PM me and allow me to ask you a question or two.

Um .... BEER!

 

[Jaybird]

There are a lot of electrician here. I say just ask. Off Topic? If its a DIY I think you are in the correct space.

Feel free to send me a PM if you would rather.

Cheers
Jay

 

[LBussy]

True!

Well, I'll share here then: I need to replace the line from the (is it called a mast?) to the breaker box, and the breaker box as well actually. I think I need split nuts, cambric and rubber tape, up for the mast connection, and that's how it's connected? Looking for the right words to use.

I'm in a rural area where there's no inspections, and I'm not afraid of 220 (three phase or an inverter and I might shake a bit.) Just need to words to look up what I need.

 

[Hammy71]

Check with your power company about who can make the connections for the "mast". Back in the day they would let us do it, but most states and power companies now require that they make the connections. A quick call may help you out.

 

[LBussy]

Check with your power company about who can make the connections for the "mast". Back in the day they would let us do it, but most states and power companies now require that they make the connections. A quick call may help you out.

Unfortunately this is private service - from the house to the barn.

 

[day_trippr]

So you're not referring to the connection to the "street"?
If you're running a line from your load center to a shed or barn I'd think you can do pretty much anything you want that can carry the amperage...particularly if you run the wire underground in a PVC conduit...

Cheers!

 

[easttex]

True!

Well, I'll share here then: I need to replace the line from the (is it called a mast?) to the breaker box, and the breaker box as well actually. I think I need split nuts, cambric and rubber tape, up for the mast connection, and that's how it's connected? Looking for the right words to use.

I'm in a rural area where there's no inspections, and I'm not afraid of 220 (three phase or an inverter and I might shake a bit.) Just need to words to look up what I need.

I get nervous when I see wire strung through the air and held with split bolts. If you aren't comfortable with the work, I'd highly recommend calling an electrician out. They aren't cheap but electricity can potentially cause death and mayhem if it's done incorrectly.

 

[Bobby_M]

Service entrance cap like this one if you're just strapping the service entrance cable to the wall. This weather seals the opening of the outer jacket of the cable so water doesn't pour down the jacket. They are sold based on the cable sizing.

The other option is to put it in a conduit and they make a version of the entrance cap that mounts on the top of a conduit.

To support the cable on each end of an aerial you need cable grips but for a heavier cable and longer run, you can buy cables with a built in steal support cable that gets connected to eyebolts on each end. I suppose you can rig a support cable parallel yourself and secure it to the cable.

The splice between the service entrance cable and the aerial can be done with weatherproof splice lugs like this:

However, if you're running the cable down a conduit with conduit mounted drip cap, you don't need to splice necessarily when replacing both the aerial and vertical drop.

 

[LBussy]

I appreciate the warnings. I'm (obviously) not an expert, but messing with AC voltage is not something I've never done. I've just never done this type of connection.

A little more of a description is in order: There is an existing aerial run to the barn. "Up there" is a connection from the other load panel at the house to the barn and then also to a back building. So it's a 1 into 2 split. From where I stand it looks like it's just a ball of electrical tape, but I assume (maybe dangerously) that it's something more than that. i want to know what I am getting into before I climb the ladder, because stores are not close around here. That's why I am looking for the right words for the parts and pieces.

I need to do the work because the load panel in the barn is decrepit. I need to add a 50A circuit to it for my camper. The line coming in from the mast is (guessing) #2 aluminum. I intend to replace the line from the mast to the panel and then of course the panel itself. It's maybe a 10' run. The replacement is because I'm thinking (maybe incorrectly) that "aluminum is bad" but maybe it's okay in the main coming in? I do see someone coated the terminals, so that at least was done correctly.

If the line from the other pole where this service starts is aluminum, I believe I need a different connector than a split bolt. Possibly a polaris connector? That showed up in some searches. I believe at least one of the three being connected now are copper because it's only a few years old. I'm going to go check the other end to be sure.

Then some time in my past I remember some dude smarter than me that y9u should use cambric tape first over a terminal like that so you can cut it off again if needed. So I was intendeding to use that, rubber tape and then follow it up by good old Super 88.

So that's the project. I need to know the right stuff to look for so I can get my shopping done before I start. There's no running to the corner hardware after I start.

 

[esdill]

Do a Google (or the search engine of your choice) search for "insulated multi-tap connector" and you'll find exactly what you need for connecting the wires. Available in many wire sizes, with different numbers of openings, and already insulated so no taping required. They are AL/CU rated so you can connect AL to AL, CU to CU, or Al to CU. Insert the cleaned (with a stainless steel wire brush) stripped wire end, tighten the set screw, and you're done. For single phase you'll need 3 of them, one for the neutral and one for each hot leg. They're what we used at the power company for tapping multiple overhead services to the end of a single secondary cable. For the mast use either galvanized or Schedule 80 PVC attached to the building with mast straps and install a weatherhead on the top, the wires from the panel exit the weatherhead towards the ground so water will not run into the mast. Make sure to leave a drip loop in the wires. Install a "service entrance wedge clamp" on the neutral conductor to attach the end of the wire to the building using a secure attachment point like a heavy duty eye bolt. If you search for "FPL ESS" (Florida Power & Light Electric Service Standards) and download the document, there's diagrams of service connections in section IV (I was one of the author/editor/revisors of the book). P.S. - Aluminum is not bad, it's what the power company uses in 99.99% of all the installations, you just need to clean the wire properly, use oxidation inhibiting grease (already inside the multi-tap when you buy them), and torque the connections properly.

 

[LBussy]

Thank you! Exactly what I needed.

So if Al is not inherently "bad" is there any reason to change out the drop from the mast, or can I just re-use that for the new load center? The sheathing on the cable itself is fiber-wrapped, not sure if that makes a difference in the answer.

 

[esdill]

If it's fiber wrapped then it's pretty darned old, I'd just go ahead and replace it to avoid any future issues with the insulation coming off. #2 AL triplexed HDPE insulated bare neutral service cable (feeding the mast) is less than $2.00 per foot. Inside the mast (from weatherhead to panel) use 3 insulated single #2 AL (or larger) conductors, the #2 AL 90C rated conductors are good for 100 amps. If it was a permitted installation built per the NEC, you'd need larger wire since you cannot load them to 100% of rating under the code (since the power company is exempt from the NEC, we loaded everything at 100% for our calculations and could therefore use smaller wire sizes - that's why you'll see a #1/0 AL triplex service cable feeding a #4/0 CU conductor inside a mast. The splices between the service cable and the mast conductors is the demarcation point between power company (#1/0 AL) and house wiring (#4/0 CU)).

 

[passedpawn]

This is what #2 Al looks like when knicked underground and left to corrode down to aluminum oxide "chalk". Ask me how I know Anyway, aluminum might be OK for above ground, but I'd never use it underground again for this reason.

 

[LBussy]

Yikes! Yeah this is all above-ground, no worries there. Sounds like Al is a lot cheaper than Cu too. I've never gone and purchased this by the foot - I may need to find a real electrical supply place to get some.

 

[LBussy]

I think I'm going to take some pics and post them here after the call I am on gets done. I'm betting there's a better way to skin this cat.

 

[esdill]

This is what #2 Al looks like when knicked underground and left to corrode down to aluminum oxide "chalk". Ask me how I know Anyway, aluminum might be OK for above ground, but I'd never use it underground again for this reason.

View attachment 758866View attachment 758867View attachment 758868

All of our aluminum conductors were installed in conduit, no problems like that for us ...

 

[LBussy]

Okay here's the whole job. My "need" is to replace/update the load center inside the barn because every time I take the face plate off the breakers pop out. I also need to add a 50A circuit for my travel trailer and despite there being amperage availability technically, and space physically, I get a bad feeling working in that box.

So with that in mind, maybe some of you smart people can suggest a good way to go. The project consists of:

• Quonset Hut (or "barn") with the mast
• Out-building with the new service split off the mast and running underground from the Quonset

Here's the mast up top (all of these should be clickable to get the larger versions). There's a 200A breaker feeding this overhead line:

You can see the old fabric-covered cable running down/right and the newer one with the weather head underneath. The older one serves the Quonset and is the one I am concerned about. The newer one serves another out-building via an underground from the Quonset.

Here's the inside of the barn on the other side of the mast:

The fabric-covered one is low-left and the new one is middle-right.

Here is the load center with the fabric-covered service coming in the top, and you can also see the new HDPE (I think) covered service running down the left of that.

And that new service passes through the wall below the load center above and ties to the underground service in this box:

If that new service were something larger than #2, I could cut it inside and split it in a trough above a new load center. I am fairly certain I cannot run #2 @ 200A. So I am left with (I think) running a new #2 from the junction up top down into a new load center (with a new weather head.)

Does this seem like the right way to go?

 

[esdill]

I would simply install a new weatherhead of the same type right next to the existing "new" one and run the same kind of "new" cable from that weatherhead to the new service panel. Since the breaker protecting this installation is 200 amp you'll need to size the new wire to handle 200 amps. Here's a link to a cable ampacity chart: Allowable Ampacities of Insulated Aluminum or CopperClad Aluminum Conductors On American Wire Group - Use the insulated multitaps I mentioned earlier to tap both of the weatherheads to the existing OH service cable, no need to do anything with that service cable, it's in fine condition. Rip out the old cable and patch the hole. Easy-peasy.

 

[LBussy]

I would simply install a new weatherhead of the same type right next to the existing "new" one and run the same kind of "new" cable from that weatherhead to the new service panel.

Thank you @esdill. The new feed is #2 Al according to the sheathing. I think. Here's what the printing says:

E194993 3 CORS 2 AWG AA-8000 AL 1 COR 4 AWG AA-8000 AL TYPE SE STYLE R-XHHW-2 CDRS 600 V XLPE (UL) 2005

I think that's polyethylene sheathing rated for wet conditions with 3 #2 Al conductors and a #4 Al ground? There's no ground in the Quonset that I can see, unless it's bonded somewhere up top at the mast.

Since the breaker protecting this installation is 200 amp you'll need to size the new wire to handle 200 amps.

It looks like a 4-pole 200A breaker. This is in a box underneath (inside) the meter. Is it possible that the electrical service is split there to the house and to the Quonset, 200A for each? I'll open that box and take a pic.

Oh the joys of buying an old farm!

Use the insulated multitaps I mentioned earlier to tap both of the weatherheads to the existing OH service cable

Like this one?

That's what I meant by "Polaris" - apparently they are a manufacturer?

Now I definitely owe ya a beer!

 

[Homebrew Harry]

This is what #2 Al looks like when knicked underground and left to corrode down to aluminum oxide "chalk". Ask me how I know Anyway, aluminum might be OK for above ground, but I'd never use it underground again for this reason.

View attachment 758866View attachment 758867View attachment 758868

Was that line rated for direct burial ?

 

[LBussy]

Yep - 200A and what looks like 4 poles but two are on the same bar?

I don't know if that's 4 x 100A with two in parallel or what?

Anyway, that service looks like copper but I don't see the wire size on it. I'd ASSume it was 4/0 since it's recent, but who knows. I think this part is owned by the Rural Electric folks - worth a call to them anyway.

The problem is, that's the ONLY breakers outside before this splits to the barn, the Quonset, the back-building and the house. I'd think it would be smarter to get a new 50A GE breaker and run the service from there to my Camping Trailer?

 

[passedpawn]

Was that line rated for direct burial ?

Heck if I know. but assume so - power company put it in 35 yrs ago. They tried an underground patch, but that didn't last long. Came back later with some serious equipment and tunneled a whole new line from the transformer to my house, in a semicircle around my cul-de-sac. Not an easy job. Took several days. New line looked a lot like the old one, definitely not in conduit.

 

[esdill]

Yep - 200A and what looks like 4 poles but two are on the same bar?
View attachment 758923
View attachment 758924
I don't know if that's 4 x 100A with two in parallel or what?

Anyway, that service looks like copper but I don't see the wire size on it. I'd ASSume it was 4/0 since it's recent, but who knows. I think this part is owned by the Rural Electric folks - worth a call to them anyway.

The problem is, that's the ONLY breakers outside before this splits to the barn, the Quonset, the back-building and the house. I'd think it would be smarter to get a new 50A GE breaker and run the service from there to my Camping Trailer?

Yes, those are paralleled 100 amp breakers connected together with a tie bar to make 2 - 200 amp legs ... a cheaper way to do it for the manufacturer, but no longer allowed under the NEC. And yes, you could install a 50 amp breaker in there and run the service to the trailer directly from there, assuming it's close enough to where you want the trailer to be set up.

 

[esdill]

Thank you @esdill. The new feed is #2 Al according to the sheathing. I think. Here's what the printing says:

E194993 3 CORS 2 AWG AA-8000 AL 1 COR 4 AWG AA-8000 AL TYPE SE STYLE R-XHHW-2 CDRS 600 V XLPE (UL) 2005

I think that's polyethylene sheathing rated for wet conditions with 3 #2 Al conductors and a #4 Al ground? There's no ground in the Quonset that I can see, unless it's bonded somewhere up top at the mast.


It looks like a 4-pole 200A breaker. This is in a box underneath (inside) the meter. Is it possible that the electrical service is split there to the house and to the Quonset, 200A for each? I'll open that box and take a pic.

Oh the joys of buying an old farm!


Like this one?
View attachment 758915
That's what I meant by "Polaris" - apparently they are a manufacturer?

Now I definitely owe ya a beer!

The wire code you have transcribed is 3 - #2 AL hot legs and 1 - #4 AL neutral ... no idea why they used that for single phase since you only need 2 hot legs and a neutral ... and it's undersized based on the upstream protective device being a 200 amp breaker. For 200 amps you'll need 2 - 4/0 AL hot legs and a 2/0 AL neutral to meet code.

I responded to the other post with the picture regarding the 4 breakers, they're 4-100 amp breakers tied together with a bar to give 2 - 200 amp legs. And yes, the multitap shown would be perfect, Polaris is the manufacturer of that one, but there's many other manufacturers as well and any manufacturer's similar device will do the job ... whatever you can find at the supply depot.

 

[bracconiere]

@kartracer2 i'd like to hear your thoughts.

maybe you can help before @LBussy decides to just turn it into a jungle jim and carry the elctrons over it that way....it sure would be 'exciting' though!

 

[kartracer2]

@bracconiere It looks looks @esdill has it well under control. Solid info being given already. No sense adding when none is needed. All I have is just make sure the connections are tight and then check again. Al will "flow" a bit in my experience after initial tightening. Also "Noalox" (or equiv.) is your friend.
May your electrons flow freely,
Cheers,
Joel B.

 

[LBussy]

Yeah, the 2 AWG cable with the 200A breaker is no bueno - I get that. Looking at the service it's like that from the main breaker in. All three legs are simply split and not protected individually. I'd have to do some work at the first pole to make it all "right."

I'm re-thinking my effort. I have about a 50' run from the pole to where the travel trailer is. I may take a 50A off that main panel; to a disconnect by the trailer and know at least that much is right. I know I'll have to go back and re-work the rest but it's been like this for at least 20 years so I can probably wait a couple more.

I'll price out doing both though and figure out which way is best (for now.)

I appreciate all the help, folks.

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, we have 200A service relying on 4/0 aluminum in the ground to a concrete vault shared with a neighbor. There's no conduit, just buried wire. The whole development was put in the mid-70s that way so while all utilities are buried they weren't done with much mind towards lifespans. Phone and cable were the same though we switched to buried fiber many years ago.

Many of the almost 200 homes started with 100A load centers and over the years when folks upgraded AC systems and added rooms and whatever and wanted to go to 200A service, the cable size was to code, but by then lots of them had degraded to where the homeowners had to dig up and replace them.

The neighbor I don't share a vault with had to have their feed replaced and their home has a ~400' set back plus another 100' of run parallel to the street to get to their lot. That was some expensive trenching right there. Before he got the wire replaced I remember watching his house blinking when he was messing around in his work shop - a good current thump would darned near black him out and I'm sure was causing lots of clocks to reset

We only have a 100' set back and the vault is on the property line, so it wouldn't be nearly as bad, but still, it's a liability that our feed could eventually go bad...

Cheers!

 

[InspectorJon]

There is an instruction book for all of this. It is called the National Electric Code. If you are not comfortable reading that and understanding the requirements for the job you want to do then it would be wise to call an electrician that can.

I realize that sounds a little snarky but poor electrical work can have pretty severe consequences. The metal quonset hut might not burn but someone could get hurt. I see crazy stuff all the time that well meaning DIY folks did. People ask me “why would they do that?”. My answer is: because there was nobody there to stop them.

 

[Homebrew Harry]

There is an instruction book for all of this. It is called the National Electric Code. If you are not comfortable reading that and understanding the requirements for the job you want to do then it would be wise to call an electrician that can.

I realize that sounds a little snarky but poor electrical work can have pretty severe consequences. The metal quonset hut might not burn but someone could get hurt. I see crazy stuff all the time that well meaning DIY folks did. People ask me “why would they do that?”. My answer is: because there was nobody there to stop them.

I worked for a company that had a metal hut building with sliding doors that hit a stop in the ground when closed. A certified electrician wired the hut. While closing the doors I damn near got electrocuted when they hit the stop in the ground. Current went through both arms as one door grounded first. I told the owner to get the GD jackleg back here now. Owner almost didn't believe it. I told him you come here and touch these doors then. Jackleg electrician failed to bond the panels among other things. Everyone around here thinks this dumb@ss is the best around here. Sad. At least when you hire a professional, you get insurance or can sue for damages when someone dies or something burns. I'm not knocking this diy here. I wish I still lived in Missouri. If I did, I would drive to Kansas city to help LBussy. I have buried and stung a lot of wire in my day.