Any legal issues with labeling my Homebrew with "Company" label?

[TheMan]

There is really nothing wrong with calling your home setup whatever you want. However, I'd do a google search before naming your place...Uptown Brewery exists in Stanton, NE.

I wouldn't want to accidentally represent an actual company should you publicly display your brewery name. I'd want to be unique.

 

[bernerbrau]

That is what I was guessing they would have to get you for. However, it seems like it would be pretty easy to get out of. If someone buys the ingredients and you brew it, is that really selling and tax evasion?

I'm guessing they would have a lot tougher time proving intent in court with one person buying and another brewing, than they would with someone physically exchanging money for booze. The former is more akin to you making a beer run and your buddy gives you $10 to help pay for it.

 

[cimirie]

Yes, selling homebrew is illegal any way you slice it. I don't do it. I don't have any desire. Nobody is making claims to the contrary. But you all are intentionally missing ODaniel's point.

His claim that the government doesn't care is very much accurate. Yes it IS punishable, bit unless it's a large operation, there's zero motivation for enforcement.

You didn't like his speeding parallel. How about pirating music? It's a felony to illegally download even one unlicensed mp3. More music is illegally downloaded than purchased. But nobody gets arrested with the few exceptions of highly publicized 16 year olds done solely to dissuade others. Why? Everybody in law enforcement has better things to do. Plus, there's no real return on investment (is the expense of arrest, prosecution, and incarceration outweighed by the public good served).

Your point is the academic truth (that most everybody knows) - selling homebrew is illegal. Daniel's point is the practical reality - unless you're running a large speakeasy in your garage, nobody knows, and more importantly, nobody cares.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

Your point is the academic truth (that most everybody knows) - selling homebrew is illegal. Daniel's point is the practical reality - unless you're running a large speakeasy in your garage, nobody knows, and more importantly, nobody cares.

I think everybody gets his point about the likelihood of getting caught. That wasn't the conversation. The OP asked if there were any problems with how he wanted to name his homebrewing activities. Completely different discussion.

 

[cimirie]

I think everybody gets his point about the likelihood of getting caught. That wasn't the conversation. The OP asked if there were any problems with how he wanted to name his homebrewing activities. Completely different discussion.

Rewind the tape and read the direction of the discussion. IffyG, bernerbrau, William_shakes_beer, and ODaniel were all discussing the point of legality vs likelihood. Not saying that this was addressing the OP concern, but it was the overriding topic of most of the posts in this thread.

 

[beergolf]

Get his thread back on track....

 

[MonkeyWrench]

This topic has already been answered, and that is no. There are no issues unless you have the intent to sell.

On the secondary topic, I have a question:

Scenario 1: Lets say you and a buddy split the cost of ingredients of a $50 brew and bottle 50 bottles. You each pay $25 and get 25 bottles, price came out to $1 a bottle

Scenario 2: Now lets say you brew the same beer again for $50 and pay that out of your pocket, said friend wants to "buy" 25 bottles off of you, the beer is bottled and carbed and ready to drink.

Are you SELLING said brew in scenario 2 or simply recovering cost since you are not turning a profit?

Let's take it a step farther:

Scenario 3: You brew said beer yet again and pay the entire $50 out of pocket, bottle, carb etc and it's ready to drink. You have 4 friends that each want 10 bottles and want to give you $10 for them. Is this any different than scenario 2?

Pretty gray area here in my opinion. I've been curious about the answer to this for quite some time.

 

[rjsnau]

\
Scenario 1: Lets say you and a buddy split the cost of ingredients of a $50 brew and bottle 50 bottles. You each pay $25 and get 25 bottles, price came out to $1 a bottle

Scenario 2: Now lets say you brew the same beer again for $50 and pay that out of your pocket, said friend wants to "buy" 25 bottles off of you, the beer is bottled and carbed and ready to drink.

Are you SELLING said brew in scenario 2 or simply recovering cost since you are not turning a profit?

Let's take it a step farther:

Scenario 3: You brew said beer yet again and pay the entire $50 out of pocket, bottle, carb etc and it's ready to drink. You have 4 friends that each want 10 bottles and want to give you $10 for them. Is this any different than scenario 2?

Pretty gray area here in my opinion. I've been curious about the answer to this for quite some time.

Scenario 2 and 3 would scare me enough to not risk it. I would be afraid that it would be viewed as selling alcohol even if it is is not at a profit. You are still trading alcohol for dollars. In Scenario 1, you are not selling anything but rather splitting the cost. Even though the $'s are the same the timing is very different.

How far could you take Scenario 2 and 3... You could even factor in your time at the current wage you make at your job and argue that is a "labor cost". I don't think most courts would agree with you though and it is just not worth it.

 

[dfc]

On a side note - if you are planning one day to "go pro" -- it might help in est. a copyright/trademark on your company name. I think I remember a small biz trick to help est. copyright by sending yourself mail with your company information.

From a link:
“An old trick to ensure you keep your trademark before you register it is to send yourself a sealed envelope with the idea, logo and concept,” she advises. “Keep the envelope closed with the date stamp unaltered in case you need to fight for your trademark in court one day.”

I don't know how it compares to trademark laws, but that doesn't work with copyrights. It's too easy to fake according to the court system.

 

[TheMan]

Scenario 2 and 3 would scare me enough to not risk it. I would be afraid that it would be viewed as selling alcohol even if it is is not at a profit. You are still trading alcohol for dollars. In Scenario 1, you are not selling anything but rather splitting the cost. Even though the $'s are the same the timing is very different.

How far could you take Scenario 2 and 3... You could even factor in your time at the current wage you make at your job and argue that is a "labor cost". I don't think most courts would agree with you though and it is just not worth it.

Really? That scenario scares you? If a friend wanted to give me ten bucks for some of my beer I'd offer it for free, but if he insisted on giving me money I wouldn't hesitate to turn it down. The government is not going to harass me for a tiny deal I made with my friend...let alone how would they even find out?

 

[qbst]

This topic has already been answered, and that is no. There are no issues unless you have the intent to sell.

Well, not entirely. If your beer label is the same as someone else's registered label/trademark/etc, they could force you to stop using it. So it's not like you'll be fined or thrown in jail, but your creativity and effort to make a great company name and label could be for naught.

On the secondary topic, I have a question:

Scenario 1: Lets say you and a buddy split the cost of ingredients of a $50 brew and bottle 50 bottles. You each pay $25 and get 25 bottles, price came out to $1 a bottle

Scenario 2: Now lets say you brew the same beer again for $50 and pay that out of your pocket, said friend wants to "buy" 25 bottles off of you, the beer is bottled and carbed and ready to drink.

Are you SELLING said brew in scenario 2 or simply recovering cost since you are not turning a profit?

Let's take it a step farther:

Scenario 3: You brew said beer yet again and pay the entire $50 out of pocket, bottle, carb etc and it's ready to drink. You have 4 friends that each want 10 bottles and want to give you $10 for them. Is this any different than scenario 2?

Pretty gray area here in my opinion. I've been curious about the answer to this for quite some time.

The answer is, it depends on your states' laws, and how "Sale" is defined. I suspect that, for most if not all states, turning a profit has absolutely nothing to do with the definition of "sale."

I don't know every state's laws, but I suspect that in at least some states, all three scenarios could be considered "sales."


*This is of course all hypothetical and academic, and not intended as legal advice; no relationship is formed or intended by participation in this discussion. If you have specific questions, contact an attorney in your state.

**I think I'm going to add the disclaimer to my sig; it's a pain in the butt to keep writing.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

I don't know how it compares to trademark laws, but that doesn't work with copyrights. It's too easy to fake according to the court system.

A lot of amateur/wanting-to-go-pro musicians do that mail trick (and you really need to do it with certified mail, not first class) to prove when the music was recorded or composed by sending themselves CDs with the songs and all the components because only people with access to the masters would have the components. It's a problem where labels get demos and just rip the tracks and sell them under their own artists -- especially in dance music where there may not be a singer to identify the track -- but I've never known anybody who successfully used that method in court. I would assume at most it creates a presumption that the files on the CD are valid and had to have been created prior to the date mailed but I would think the stronger evidence would be having evidence of unmastered versions of the music, since nobody else would have that. Very much a different issue from copyrights though.

 

[drewski]

My sincere apologies for opening the "Is selling homebrew legal?" can of worms... I'm sure HBT has servers full of threads covering that.

There is really nothing wrong with calling your home setup whatever you want. However, I'd do a google search before naming your place...Uptown Brewery exists in Stanton, NE.

I wouldn't want to accidentally represent an actual company should you publicly display your brewery name. I'd want to be unique.

Excellent point, and one I'll do a bit more research on before putting ink to label. I live in Uptown Minneapolis, and as far as I can tell, the Uptown Brewery in Stanton, NE doesn't actually brew their own beer. (Anyone know differently?)

The only issue I may have on this front is that there's a [great] brewpub in Uptown called Herkimer, but the legal name of the business is "The Uptown Brewing Company, LLC"

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

This topic has already been answered, and that is no. There are no issues unless you have the intent to sell.

On the secondary topic, I have a question:

Scenario 1: Lets say you and a buddy split the cost of ingredients of a $50 brew and bottle 50 bottles. You each pay $25 and get 25 bottles, price came out to $1 a bottle

Scenario 2: Now lets say you brew the same beer again for $50 and pay that out of your pocket, said friend wants to "buy" 25 bottles off of you, the beer is bottled and carbed and ready to drink.

Are you SELLING said brew in scenario 2 or simply recovering cost since you are not turning a profit?

Let's take it a step farther:

Scenario 3: You brew said beer yet again and pay the entire $50 out of pocket, bottle, carb etc and it's ready to drink. You have 4 friends that each want 10 bottles and want to give you $10 for them. Is this any different than scenario 2?

Pretty gray area here in my opinion. I've been curious about the answer to this for quite some time.

No gray area, it's very clear. Scenarios 2 and 3 are the same. Two reasons why both are probably illegal in your state:

1. Most states have limits on who can consume homebrew. Some states limit to personal consumption within the household, some permit entry into competitions, some allow you to gift or share some with friends. If you live in a state where the law does not create an exception that permits you to gift or share with people outside of the household (and reasonably speaking, you are not having organized tastings with your friends) then you are violating the law to give your friends your homebrew. If you live in a state that permits sharing/gifting then you are not violating the law to give them beer for free, to the extent permitted by law.

2. A sale constitutes any exchange of something of value between parties. That does not mean cash has to be on either side. You can barter goods or services and still execute a sales transaction (the value obtained in bartering is taxable -- take a look at federal tax forms). Making a profit is not determinative of a sale. So in either 2 or 3 if you are obtaining cash for your homebrew, you are selling it. Then you would need the appropriate brewing permits (and other associated requirements) to sell.


Although I know some people on HBT want to point out (and have) that you are unlikely to get caught selling your friends a few beers in your home, low probability of getting in trouble does not equate to its legality. Regardless of the probability of prosecution, it is still illegal which makes it against the rules to discuss or promote on HBT and generally a bad idea to publicly discuss. No reason to offer fuel to groups that might want to restrict homebrewing laws or prevent expansion of homebrewing/craftbrewing.

 

[bernerbrau]

You know, back in my day, folks on HBT just took it as a given that selling homebrew was illegal and that was that. Now, you don't go hardly a month without a debate popping up about the legality/severity/government interest/enforceability of it.

What's the world coming to?

 

[Homercidal]

You know, back in my day, folks on HBT just took it as a given that selling homebrew was illegal and that was that. Now, you don't go hardly a month without a debate popping up about the legality/severity/government interest/enforceability of it.

What's the world coming to?

It's pretty straightforward.

But the original topic was about naming your homebrewing endeavours a "company", which as long as you are not selling is perfectly legal.

Once you sell it, you are not homebrewing.

But you can name your homebrew ANYTHING you like, and nobody can say Boo to you. Because YOU CAN'T SELL IT!

I could name name my IIPA Bills Hopslam...

 

[Phunhog]

I call my brewery Two Trees Brewing Co. At one time I wanted to take it the nanobrewery route so I even have the ficticious business name on file. I own a few domain names pertaining to it. Two Trees Brewing Co. pours at beer festivals, sells t-shirts, and even has a Facebook page with almost 500 fans. The one thing I cannot and will not do is sell beer. Thus I avoid having to deal with all the licensing, taxes, paperwork, stress, and all the other stuff that goes along with running a "real" brewery. My friends come to me for growler fills. I tell them flat out that the beer is free!! Doesn't matter they still buy me lunch, drop off some commercial beers, etc.. The other day someone dropped off a nice note thanking me for the beer and inside was a gift card for a coffee shop. I can't imagine any LEO, DA, or court would say that I am "selling" homebrew.

 

[jfr1111]

On a side note - if you are planning one day to "go pro" -- it might help in est. a copyright/trademark on your company name. I think I remember a small biz trick to help est. copyright by sending yourself mail with your company information.

From a link:
“An old trick to ensure you keep your trademark before you register it is to send yourself a sealed envelope with the idea, logo and concept,” she advises. “Keep the envelope closed with the date stamp unaltered in case you need to fight for your trademark in court one day.”

This is an old wives tale and has no use either in the US or Canada. Copyright doesn't need to be registered to exist and sending yourself info about a name you're wishing to trademark doesn't do anything except make you spend a few cents on a postage stamp. You have to have actually used the name before someone else to have preference. Thinking about it or only registering it is not enough.

 

[midfielder5]

Copyright ..You have to have actually used the name before someone else to have preference....

When I last looked at trademark law [it has been a while & I don't know if same/different than copyright], they look at when you first made a sale to determine "first in time". Not just used it in marketing literature, etc.

 

[MazdaMatt]

It isn't "selling" if you're exchanging it for pot and sexual favours, right?

 

[Phunhog]

When I last looked at trademark law [it has been a while & I don't know if same/different than copyright], they look at when you first made a sale to determine "first in time". Not just used it in marketing literature, etc.

I wonder how that would apply to me and Two Two Trees Brewing Co.? I obviously have not sold any beer BUT I have sold lots of t-shirts with my logo. I do collect sales tax on the shirts and have a ficticious business name filed in my county.

 

[rycov]

if you take a girl out to dinner and then have sex its cool. but if you give her money (maybe for dinner) then have sex its prostitution.

is it really much different? no, but on is still illegal.

 

[bernerbrau]

if you take a girl out to dinner and then have sex its cool. but if you give her money (maybe for dinner) then have sex its prostitution.

is it really much different? no, but on is still illegal.

Last weekend I wrote my wife a check for $1000 to pay some bills. Then we did it. Is that illegal?

Don't mind me. I'm just stirring the pot now. Actually I think there was a whole Seinfeld episode about this.

 

[bob1852]

Actually I think there was a whole Seinfeld episode about this.

Seinfeld sold homebrew?

 

[bernerbrau]

Seinfeld sold homebrew?

Nah, Jerry starts dating his maid. George, Kramer, and Elaine all ponder the implications of "solicitation" in this scenario. Then after a while, his maid starts showing up, not cleaning, and collecting the money anyway. It all comes to a head in a confrontation between Jerry and his maid's "supervisor".

Eventually the supervisor fires the maid and hires Kramer, whom he finds lost in the middle of Manhattan.

 

[midfielder5]

I wonder how that would apply to me and Two Two Trees Brewing Co.? I obviously have not sold any beer BUT I have sold lots of t-shirts with my logo. I do collect sales tax on the shirts and have a ficticious business name filed in my county.

Hi Two Trees. I could do legal research if you need something to rely upon, rather than misc. internet ramblings. My boss will insist on charging you tho... I do happen to be my own boss

 

[bob1852]

Nah, Jerry starts dating his maid. George, Kramer, and Elaine all ponder the implications of "solicitation" in this scenario. Then after a while, his maid starts showing up, not cleaning, and collecting the money anyway. It all comes to a head in a confrontation between Jerry and his maid's "supervisor".

Eventually the supervisor fires the maid and hires Kramer, whom he finds lost in the middle of Manhattan.

At the corner of 1st and 1st, with two Ray's pizza places?

 

[bernerbrau]

At the corner of 1st and 1st, with two Ray's pizza places?

That's the one.

 

[TheMan]

At the corner of 1st and 1st, with two Ray's pizza places?

How can the same street intersect with itself? Must be at the nexus of the universe!!!