Anti-Lock Brakes - Rant

[MNBugeater]

I know there have been several "You know what I hate...", "Stupid drivers...", etc posts...but this morning has me steaming.

Disclaimer..I think I am an above average experienced bad weather driver.I grew up in the Black Hills of South Dakota and have lived my entire driving life in crappy winter weathered areas of the U.S. Black Hills, Minneapolis, and going on 10 years in Northern Minnesota.

This morning coming to work... light dusting of snow last night, minor snow pack, minor ice at some intersections. I am sitting at a "T" intersection facing south. Traffic passing in front of me East & West.

Car approaching from the East wanting to turn North onto the road I am currently stopped at. About 50+ feet away, i can see the car sliding...and I think to myself that car isn't going to make the turn. But the idiot driver thinks they can.. I can tell the car has Anti Lock Brakes cause its sliding yet the car starts turning in a controlled manner.

But instead of just sliding through the intersection, which any reasonable person would do, the driver turns the wheel as if they THINK they can make the turn while sliding.

If you were standing anywhere observing this, you would Swear on a Stack that the driver was deliberately turning to hit me broadside. And all i could do was watch this as if it were in slow motion. Luckily there was no one behind me...I slammed into reverse and backed up and turned into the ditch. Once the other vehicle came to a stop (in the ditch also), I put it in 4 wheel and drove away. There is no way that sedan got out without assistance.

If the car didn't have ABS it would have glided right through the intersection safely instead of giving the driver false hope that they could make that turn.

Having all the safety features in the world on a car doesn't make it inherently more safe if the drivers 1) Don't know how to handle the vehicle or 2) Feel so invincible or convinced the car does the work that they are more dangerous.

Thanks for listening.

P.S. If it were a woman driver, I would have pulled her out of the ditch with the tow strap and hook I keep in my vehicle.

 

[Evan!]

So...the...moral of the story is...you're sexist when it comes to roadside assistance.

Duly noted.

 

[Loweface]

So...the...moral of the story is...you're sexist when it comes to roadside assistance.

I remember reading about a study that showed men were more likely to give roadside assistance to a woman in distress the better looking she was, while women were less and less likely to give roadside assistance to a woman in distress the better looking she was...

I know it was a bit of tabloid trash but still...


Hey MNBugeater, glad you were able to keep yourself out of an accident...

 

[EdWort]

So...the...moral of the story is...you're sexist when it comes to roadside assistance.

No, MNBugEater is proof that Chivalry is not dead, even if she is an idiot.

 

[wildwest450]

So anti lock brakes make people stupid? I think most people are stupid by nature. I also drive a lot for work, and anti lock brakes have saved my ass numerous times. Id put then right up there with air bags for most valuable safety feature on a car.

 

[FireBrewer]

or 2) Feel so invincible or convinced the car does the work that they are more dangerous.

This would be the reason why I see more collisions involving SUVs in snow and icy weather. People are stupid and don't understand that 4 wheel drive = 4 wheel slip on ice.

 

[brauhaus]

Anti-lock brakes have kept me from ramming into the back of the idiots who feel driving slower than 5mph and stopping every so-often for no reason other than it's snowing and they can't drive.

With that said, if frustrates me when people drive in the snow when clearly they shouldn't...

This would be the reason why I see more collisions involving SUVs in snow and icy weather. People are stupid and don't understand that 4 wheel drive = 4 wheel slip on ice.

WERD

they also think for some reason that tailgating other drivers is a good practice?? perhaps they are going to "push" other drivers through the snow?

 

[Chriso]

This entire thread QFT. Seriously.

I'm a very competent winter driver. (Not to sound cocky - but I believe strongly in knowing one's own abilities and disadvantages.... and I am very confident in my skills.) I've driven anything and everything I can, in inclement weather, just for experience's sake. RWD Pickups and sedans, AWD minivan, FWD minivans, gobs of FWD cars ranging in all sizes, and most recently, my AWD sport utility. I've never gotten a car irretrievably stuck. The worst thing I've hit has been a light pole in a B.K. parking lot at <5mph (long story). But I've had these positive experiences because I know what I'm doing, and where my limitations are.

The average driver, even in the Midwest where you'd think we'd have learned by now, still freaks their **** out every time it turns the slightest bit white outside.

That said, I can't wait for our first big snowfall so's I can go gallavanting around some corners with all 4 spinnin'! It's my favorite part of the season!

 

[Homercidal]

So what the OP is saying is that he'd prefer it if these people slid right through the intersection, and possibly into incoming traffic, rather than some form of control? It's already a given that the driver was coming too fast for conditions, but the fact is, that AB can really help a person steer in most situations.

The drivers is still responsible for knowing what their car can do, and what they can do with their car. It "can" help someone stop sooner, but generally gives an added measure of driveability in slippery conditions.

I make it a point to do some power slides and doughnuts first thing in the winter. Gets the old counter-steer maneuver back into shape, and reminds me that even my Jeep with 4WD is not invincible.

 

[Donasay]

Some people don't even know what ABS is like when it goes off. I was in the car when my mom was driving and a cat ran across the road. She slammed on the breaks and steered to the right, all the sudden the car starts to vibrate and shake as the abs applied the beak pressure in short bursts. She screamed thinking she hit the cat, and swerved to the side of the road. It took me a minute to explain how the abs works, and that is what she was hearing. Needless to say, there wasn't a cat lodged in the wheel well.

I think the key to driving with or without ABS is knowing A) whether you have it or not and B) how it works.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

This entire thread QFT. Seriously.

I'm a very competent winter driver. (Not to sound cocky - but I believe strongly in knowing one's own abilities and disadvantages.... and I am very confident in my skills.) I've driven anything and everything I can, in inclement weather, just for experience's sake. RWD Pickups and sedans, AWD minivan, FWD minivans, gobs of FWD cars ranging in all sizes, and most recently, my AWD sport utility. I've never gotten a car irretrievably stuck. The worst thing I've hit has been a light pole in a B.K. parking lot at <5mph (long story). But I've had these positive experiences because I know what I'm doing, and where my limitations are.

The average driver, even in the Midwest where you'd think we'd have learned by now, still freaks their **** out every time it turns the slightest bit white outside.

That said, I can't wait for our first big snowfall so's I can go gallavanting around some corners with all 4 spinnin'! It's my favorite part of the season!

This is the way I am as well. If you don't know how your vehicle will react in a situation, there is no way you can be safe. You are effectively flying blind. The first thing I do when the first snow comes is find an empty parking lot and get my bearings again for the year. I also like to test breaking distances at the first stop sign I come across in slippery conditions. These small things really help.

My wife, on the other hand, gets so freaked out by slippage that she refuses to take my advice and will not allow me to do anything of the sort with her in the car.

Also, FWD cars are really weird to drive in the snow. Until last year I drove a pick-up with 4 wheel on the fly. I was so comfortable in that car and new exactly how it would react to any kind of situation. This new fangled front wheel drive thing is still messing with my chi and this is my second winter with it.... oh well

 

[Homercidal]

This is the way I am as well. If you don't know how your vehicle will react in a situation, there is no way you can be safe. You are effectively flying blind. The first thing I do when the first snow comes is find an empty parking lot and get my bearings again for the year. I also like to test breaking distances at the first stop sign I come across in slippery conditions. These small things really help.

My wife, on the other hand, gets so freaked out by slippage that she refuses to take my advice and will not allow me to do anything of the sort with her in the car.

Also, FWD cars are really weird to drive in the snow. Until last year I drove a pick-up with 4 wheel on the fly. I was so comfortable in that car and new exactly how it would react to any kind of situation. This new fangled front wheel drive thing is still messing with my chi and this is my second winter with it.... oh well

Practice the heck out of the FWD car! They are VERY different than RWD and 4x4. I really dislike them, although in general they seem to pull through well and corner better than RWD. I prefer the slippery back end that I can use to point the nose in the direction I want to go.

My wife doesn't like it when I play around on deserted streets and parking lots, but I absolutely believe that it can help you learn to control the car. The kids love it! :rockin:

 

[EdWort]

Here in Austin, Tx, the weatherman only has to "Say" it's going to snow and the whole city shuts down. Schools canceled, stores close, and it's a fricking ghost town on the roads. I love it since I grew up in Ohio and learned to drive in lots of snow.

Now, when we get ice storms, I just bunker down, stay at home, and break out the Winter Warmers.

 

[Chriso]

Practice the heck out of the FWD car! They are VERY different than RWD and 4x4. I really dislike them, although in general they seem to pull through well and corner better than RWD. I prefer the slippery back end that I can use to point the nose in the direction I want to go.

+1. Of them, FWD are my least favorite. Yeah, if you do it just right, they do perform adequately ... but they're just so hard to feel, and so much of my driving IS by feel.

I prefer the slippery back end myself (oh hell, this is ending up in Quotes, isn't it?) but I'm really digging Ford's automatic AWD. When I first got this truck, I hated it and felt it drove too much like my parents' old Aerostar 4.0L AWD (although I loved that van!) .... but I've gotten used to it, and the AWD is really nicely designed. It's pretty transparent, it doesn't get in the way, but performs correctly when it's needed. With it, I'm a believer that snow days are just for the incompetent, I'm usually dug out and playing around on the smaller side streets before most of the main roads have been plowed.

Every now and then, though, I do still wish I could lock it in granny low, and pull pull pull.

 

[MNBugeater]

So what the OP is saying is that he'd prefer it if these people slid right through the intersection, and possibly into incoming traffic, rather than some form of control?

No, I'm not saying I'd prefer the car to slide into traffic. There was no traffic and never would be any traffic in this scenario to hit. I'm saying he missed the turn cause he was sliding past it and to just continue on the same path and miss the turn was the safer alternative than try to make the turn when you are sliding and steer right into a parked car.

I was ranting about the mis-use of Anti Lock Brakes in that particular moment this AM because I was shaken up and irritated about my Monday drive to work. I thought this was 'welcoming' place to let off some steam.

I agree with all of you that ABS are indeed a valuable safety feature and also agree that idiot drivers abound and despite living in winter weather, people still freak out and don't know how to control their own vehicles.

I speculate sometimes though with all the increased safety features, as beneficial as they are, how prominent the Peltzman Effect is with people's risk. It's an interesting discussion, but my rant was truely that...a rant when I got to work cause I needed to vent.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Ranting 101: Never apologize about a rant. If attacked about your rant, immediately launch counter-attacks on many unrelated subjects.

I agree with your idea of too many safety precautions, most people don't know how ABS works and therefore use it incorrectly. Also, I don't think many ABS work very well and still use the pump technique to get where I intend to be. The slide and motion is all screwed up if you stand on the ABS, unless you are traveling in a perfectly straight line. Else, you end up in the situation MN is describing because it is very difficult to predict your trajectory using ABS.

 

[CBBaron]

I definitely prefer RWD to FWD in slippery conditions especially really long heavy RWDs like the `78 Buick Electra I drove in HS. That thing was a tank and so easy to control no matter what the weather. RWD tries to push the rear end out under power, but with that tank the action was so slow it required little effort to keep the rear in line. Now the RWD mini-van we had was much more of a handful.

I still remember the snowny commute home I had one winter in Boston. The freeways were coated with several inches of snow and I waited until well past rush hour to avoid the traffic jams. I had a long 50 mile commute that was nearly all freeway. I was driving a tiny Geo Metro and watched 3 other vehicles spin off for a soft landing in ditch. 2 were SUVs and all were traveling about the same speed as myself. The tiny narrow tires on my Metro actually helped to keep the vehicle pointed in the right direction vs the wide tires most cars and trucks sport.

Craig

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

I've never got into a skid I couldn't handle. Then again, I've never gotten into a really bad skid 'cos I'm not a f#cking idiot.

 

[GroovePuppy]

I've never got into a skid I couldn't handle. Then again, I've never gotten into a really bad skid 'cos I'm not a f#cking idiot except on line.

Fixed that for you!

 

[GroovePuppy]

I've never got into a skid I couldn't handle. Then again, I've never gotten into a really bad skid 'cos I'm not a f#cking idiot.

I did get into a skid once that spun me 270 degrees. I was doing about 15 mph at the time.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

I did get into a skid once that spun me 270 degrees. I was doing about 15 mph at the time.

It was 273 degrees you liar! I was watching!

 

[EvilTOJ]

What's with the FWD hate? I love how it handles in snow. In fact, that's why they make more cars like that now, so idiots who don't know WTF they're doing don't slide out of control as much. I learned to drive in the snow, but morons here shut the city down if there's 1/4" of snow.

That said, I do miss my RWD, empty mormon church parking lot, and making an afternoon of donuts in the snow. So hard to do in Portland.

 

[GroovePuppy]

It was 273 degrees you liar! I was watching!

It was also towards a bus sliding towards me at the same speed. Imagine a near miss where time slows down when it's already at 15mph! I swear it took an hour and a half!

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

It was also towards a bus sliding towards me at the same speed. Imagine a near miss where time slows down when it's already at 15mph! I swear it took an hour and a half!

Left hand down a bit foot off the gas....I think I can talk you through this one before it gets nasty!.....What is the bus doing now?

 

[GroovePuppy]

Left hand down a bit foot off the gas....I think I can talk you through this one before it gets nasty!.....What is the bus doing now?

It was so slow all I did was clench! Way too little traction to do anything. I could have just opened the door, stepped out and watched the whole thing from the side of the road and jumped back in afterwards.

 

[pen25]

This is the way I am as well. If you don't know how your vehicle will react in a situation, there is no way you can be safe. You are effectively flying blind. The first thing I do when the first snow comes is find an empty parking lot and get my bearings again for the year. I also like to test breaking distances at the first stop sign I come across in slippery conditions. These small things really help.

My wife, on the other hand, gets so freaked out by slippage that she refuses to take my advice and will not allow me to do anything of the sort with her in the car.

Also, FWD cars are really weird to drive in the snow. Until last year I drove a pick-up with 4 wheel on the fly. I was so comfortable in that car and new exactly how it would react to any kind of situation. This new fangled front wheel drive thing is still messing with my chi and this is my second winter with it.... oh well

I am the same way. work knows i am always going to be late when it snows cause i will be playing in the parking lots with no cars. i once had a cop pull up asking me what i was doing and i explained to him that i was just getting my winter driving habits back. he said good just dont do that on the roads.

 

[Chriso]

It was so slow all I did was clench! Way too little traction to do anything. I could have just opened the door, stepped out and watched the whole thing from the side of the road and jumped back in afterwards.

That's how my "one little exception" was.

It was, ironically, one of the times when I was not testing the limits of my vehicle or the road, but in fact going excessively slow just in case. Drive-thru at BK is on a bit of an incline, and I can see it's glistening. 7:45am, colder than an ice cream headache outside.... So I slow way, WAY the f* down. I'm CREEEEPING into the drive thru lane, from the alley way. And I feel the tires lose traction, going MAYBE 3mph if I'm being generous. Turning the wheel does nothing, I slowly and painfully s.....l........i..............d.................e down the incline and run into the concrete cylindrical barrier protecting the light post. No big deal, right?

Wrong. The impact was at *just* such a way that it hit the front transmission cooler, popped one of the lines off, and drained out all the fluid right there onto the ice. Also needed a new front bumper and grille.

Pulled the truck over into a parking spot while the tranny still shifted, and called a tow truck to come get it. Then, walked the rest of the way to work without the breakfast I had been about to order. And the sidewalks were just as slick as the parking lot had been, my ankles and knees were a WRECK by the time I got to work (an hour late).

Worst part: The asst. manager said the concrete wasn't slick at all, and there was NO need for salt or anything. While I was talking to the mgr, and calling the tow truck............... another poor soul slid into the same pole.

Asshat.

Keep in mind this was the BK that I frequented daily - DAILY - while I was at my old job. Two years, day after day, I knew everyone by name ............ but when something bad happened, no-one cared a bit. They initially protested when I wanted to use their cordless phone to call the wrecker. (I had, of course, forgotten my cell phone at home that morning.)

 

[Homercidal]

What's with the FWD hate? I love how it handles in snow. In fact, that's why they make more cars like that now, so idiots who don't know WTF they're doing don't slide out of control as much. I learned to drive in the snow, but morons here shut the city down if there's 1/4" of snow.

That said, I do miss my RWD, empty mormon church parking lot, and making an afternoon of donuts in the snow. So hard to do in Portland.

I don't hate FWD, in fact generally it does a great job of helping people slide out of control, or getting stuck in the first place. I just prefer RWD for the fun of it. The FWD is harder for sliding around corners and doing donuts.

 

[wildwest450]

I don't hate FWD, in fact generally it does a great job of helping people slide out of control, or getting stuck in the first place. I just prefer RWD for the fun of it. The FWD is harder for sliding around corners and doing donuts.

Not if your in reverse.:cross:

 

[RedIrocZ-28]

To this DAY I will never understand how anyone with an IQ over 75 still believes that anti-lock brakes make you stop faster in slick/icy conditions.

I may be insighting a riot here, but anti-lock brakes have caused me to almost get into 4 accidents. My quick thinking is the only thing that saved me from getting into these accidents. Who knows, maybe the anti-lock brakes were malfunctioning but to that point, why would I want a safety feature on my car that if it malfunctions would become a danger to me and passengers?

I have debated this many times on car forums and everyone seems to think I just have no idea how ABS works. Well, I learned to drive without ABS in terrible 12" of snow, hard packed ice, and generally ****ty winter weather for 8 years before I ever had a vehicle that had ABS. Then I buy a car that does and all the sudden I am slipping and sliding all over the place. Funny, that never happened before I had ABS.... I think I am going to remove the fuse when I get out of work today for the ABS. Its been acting up lately, almost caused me to get into a 5mph fender bender the other night in a parking lot.

 

[Homercidal]

To this DAY I will never understand how anyone with an IQ over 75 still believes that anti-lock brakes make you stop faster in slick/icy conditions.

I may be insighting a riot here, but anti-lock brakes have caused me to almost get into 4 accidents. My quick thinking is the only thing that saved me from getting into these accidents. Who knows, maybe the anti-lock brakes were malfunctioning but to that point, why would I want a safety feature on my car that if it malfunctions would become a danger to me and passengers?

I have debated this many times on car forums and everyone seems to think I just have no idea how ABS works. Well, I learned to drive without ABS in terrible 12" of snow, hard packed ice, and generally ****ty winter weather for 8 years before I ever had a vehicle that had ABS. Then I buy a car that does and all the sudden I am slipping and sliding all over the place. Funny, that never happened before I had ABS.... I think I am going to remove the fuse when I get out of work today for the ABS. Its been acting up lately, almost caused me to get into a 5mph fender bender the other night in a parking lot.

Well, you can still pump the brakes, or whatever even if you have ABS, but the point isn't so much that they help you stop faster on slick roads, but that they give "some" amount of control on slick roads. What they do is allow your wheels to continue turning while you are slowing down, which gives you the ability to possibly steer around something in front of you.

Now, it's not perfect, and of course you can't steer too much or you start snowplowing, but it certainly adds some control, maybe enough to keep you out of the ditch, or just avoid the car you are sliding towards (of course you also have to not freeze up, which I bet lots of drivers who aren't used to winter driving do).

Like countersteering, ABS ought to be practiced if possible. They will help you to slow down to a certain degree, but the small amount of control is where the real benefit is to be found.

I don't miss it on my Jeep or Durango, but it was nice on my Taurus back in the day.

My favorite maneuver these days is to start a slide with 2WD, then at the right moment, slam into 4WD and continue on. You can sometimes do some fun stuff like that.

 

[david_42]

ABS I'm fine with. My van has Automatic Stability Control. The only time it operates is when I'm trying to go up my driveway. When a wheel spins it shuts the throttle, so the van stops. Always on the steepest part. I've read the manual, so I know what is supposed to do, but it has never operated except on the driveway.

I hate having to remember to shut it off before I start up the slope.