Amount of water?

[GABrewboy]

Hmmm.....okay!! I gotcha......so what your saying is this:

I let the 4.5 gallons of initial water/grains rest for 60-90 mins.....siphon that out of the cooler. Grains fall to the bottom, I now start adding water slowly to rinse the grains and I leave my run off valve open to siphon the water going into the grains out of the grains and just keep doing this? So how much water do I use for this then.......for 90 mins that seems like you would get 50 gallons of wort.......:O

 

[DeRoux's Broux]

www.cruisenews.net/brewing/

your using a water cooler for mash tun right? follow this guy's directions for your 1st all grain. very easy to follow and he goes through each step w/ pics.

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

I admit that high temperatures may affect (increase) tannin extraction, in a high pH condition, but not on its own.
It is not the initial water pH that is a concern for tannin extraction, rather the pH of the runoff from your mashtun, after mashing, and more specificaly when you get near the end of your sparge. If you have a pH above 6.0 in your mashtun, during mashing, the last thing I'd worry about is tanning extraction!

Seb

Not only may affect tannin extraction, but does. Temperature is a required condition for tannin extraction as homebrewers are concerned. Having a pH of 6 of mash water prior to grain addition is no problem whatsoever...the grains will lower the mash depending on the buffering capacity of the water.

 

[Darth Konvel]

You might want to concider doing a batch sparge. The article I linked above has a step by step walkthrough on batch sparging. What you're describing is fly sparging.

edit: or follow the "Simple AG Brewing" link on the page DeRoux linked to. Both are great pages.

 

[sebbeerbiker]

Hmmm.....okay!! I gotcha......so what your saying is this:

I let the 4.5 gallons of initial water/grains rest for 60-90 mins.....siphon that out of the cooler. Grains fall to the bottom, I now start adding water slowly to rinse the grains and I leave my run off valve open to siphon the water going into the grains out of the grains and just keep doing this? So how much water do I use for this then.......for 90 mins that seems like you would get 50 gallons of wort.......:O

Reading your questions reminds me of my first AG days! Man, I was calling my buddy up every 10 minutes!

Ok, so you've thoroughly mixed your hot water and grains together in the mashtun. Close it, cover it with a blanket and let it sit for 60 - 90 minutes. Don't touch it for now. In the mean time, heat up some more water 3 - 4 gallons should do it, to 170F.
After the 90mins are up, you want to get your runoff clear. To do this, you'll open up very slightly your valve, to get about 1qt per minute of runoff (yes this is slow). You'll see the runoff will be full of grain chunks, and very cloudy. This is normal. I used to do this with two small sauce pans. While one is filling up, you return the contents of the filled one to the top of the grain bed, pouring it back without splashing, or disturbing the grain bed too much (do it slowly). And keep doing this until you see no more grain chunks and the runoff is cleared up. It may never get crystal clear but that's ok. That is the end of your vorlauf (recirculation). All this time you have NOT been adding water to the mash tun.
Now you can start collecting your wort into the kettle. Once the liquid level on top of your grain in the mash tun has gotten close to the grain, you can start adding hot water to the top, trying not to disturb the grain as much as possible. There are many ways of doing this, but it can be done with a sauce pan, measuring cup, ...
All this time, you maintain the same runoff rate from the mash tun (1qt per minute). You don't want to go too fast and run the risk of compacting the grains and stopping the flow (known as a stuck mash). Continue doing this until you get your kettle full. Then stop. And you're done.

Seb

 

[GABrewboy]

Cool, let me go read the two links you have given me now and if I have any more questions I will let you know.....Thanks so much everyone for your advice!! :cross:

 

[sebbeerbiker]

Not only may affect tannin extraction, but does. Temperature is a required condition for tannin extraction as homebrewers are concerned. Having a pH of 6 of mash water prior to grain addition is no problem whatsoever...the grains will lower the mash depending on the buffering capacity of the water.

I bet you if I ran cold water through a spent and cold mash, had runoff with pH above 6, you'll get the tannins out! Why would it be different for homebrewer than probrewers? We're just mimicking what they do but on a small scale. We just don't get the same efficiency for sure.

 

[GABrewboy]

Beerbiker, that makes great sense there........See, I knew someone could put it in easy terms for this simple minded guy over here.....So when you say the kettle full, you mean full to the top or what? I have a 30qt kettle I am using. That is big enough right?

 

[sebbeerbiker]

Beerbiker, that makes great sense there........See, I knew someone could put it in easy terms for this simple minded guy over here.....So when you say the kettle full, you mean full to the top or what? I have a 30qt kettle I am using. That is big enough right?

No! For a 5 gallon batch, you want about 25 quarts pre-boil. This will boil down to about 20 qts. You need some room for the boil, to avoid a boil over - everyone's had one. It makes such a mess.

Seb

 

[sebbeerbiker]

What to look out for while boiling:
1- watch your kettle as it gets ready to boil. If you turn your back, it'll boil over. When you start hearing the rumbling noise get quiet, keep both eyes on it!
2- boil for about 15 - 30 minutes then add your bittering hops (60min hop additions). The idea is you want to get the hot break going. You'll notice corn flake like stuff rolling around in the kettle. This is protein matter clumping together. This is good.
3- a rolling boil is needed. You want to have the wort and hops rolling around as much as possible, but not too much to avoir boil-over. Proper boil provides: protein coagulation, wort sterilization, hop acid extraction and isomerization, color formation, ...
4- once you've ellapsed the boil time. Cut the heat. Now you need to chill the wort.

What do you have to chill your wort? Immersion chiller, water and ice in the sink?

Seb

 

[GABrewboy]

So a 30qt pot then should be big enough?

 

[GABrewboy]

I have a homemade immersion chiller!!! Thanks again for the info and advice.....this is starting to sink in a little more and make sense.......

 

[sebbeerbiker]

So a 30qt pot then should be big enough?

Yes, sorry for not confirming that before. Plenty of space.

For your chiller, you'll want to dump it into the kettle about 10 minutes before the end of the boil, to sanitize it. Make sure it is nice and clean first. You'll notice a drop in the boil, but it'll pick up fast right after. Leave the chiller in there for the rest of the boil. Once you've finished the boil. Turn off the heat. Start running cold water through the chiller. I've found that stirring the hot wort with the chiller helps cool faster (better dispersion and mixing). CHilling should take about 20 - 30 minutes, depending how cold your water is. Chill to about 68F.

Good luck!
Seb

 

[sebbeerbiker]

Man this really brings back memories...
You'll probably be thinking how to separate the hops from the wort before getting the cool wort to the fermenter. What's your setup like? (fermenter type: glass carboy, plastic bucket?). Hops: plug, leaf or pellets? Do you have cheese cloth bags for your hops? Do you have a funnel with a screen in it?

Seb

 

[GABrewboy]

Okay, my setup!! I have 2 glass carboys, 1 plastic primary bottling bucket.....one homemade filter: I took a strainer, got some small screen from Lowe's and cut to fit the stainless strainer......put some larger handles so it will sit on top of my bottling bucket, then pour straight from the kettle to the bucket.....this helps me to both filter the gunk and to aerate the wort a little......seems to have done a pretty good job so far on the 2 batches I have used it with. I have been using hop pellets and just been tossing them straight to the kettle with no hop bag.

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

I bet you if I ran cold water through a spent and cold mash, had runoff with pH above 6, you'll get the tannins out! Why would it be different for homebrewer than probrewers? We're just mimicking what they do but on a small scale. We just don't get the same efficiency for sure.

You'd get some, just like we do anyways. Tannin extraction becomes problematic when temperature is >170-175F and pH is greater than 6 which results in the tannins becoming more soluble. The pH of the water, by itself, is not the issue pre-mash. It depends as well on the buffering capacity of the water. If you have water of pH 7 in your HLT with a low buffering capacity it will be brought into an acceptable pH range in the mash under normal circumstances. I would say for most mashes that the temperature of the sparge is of greater concern than the pH as the pH will generally be fine for the normal amount of runoff collected if it was fine in the mash in the first place.

I'm not sure how probrewers factor in as I'm sure they don't allow either of these conditions to occur

 

[sebbeerbiker]

Okay, my setup!! I have 2 glass carboys, 1 plastic primary bottling bucket.....one homemade filter: I took a strainer, got some small screen from Lowe's and cut to fit the stainless strainer......put some larger handles so it will sit on top of my bottling bucket, then pour straight from the kettle to the bucket.....this helps me to both filter the gunk and to aerate the wort a little......seems to have done a pretty good job so far on the 2 batches I have used it with. I have been using hop pellets and just been tossing them straight to the kettle with no hop bag.

Sounds like you have it all under control! Good luck then with the first mash.

Cheers,
Seb

 

[GABrewboy]

Well, not sure under control, but have a handle of things at the moment......HA Thanks and I will let everyone know how it goes with the first MASHY of GrainO's

 

[ajf]

Just a couple of points, one of which I find useful.
As I recall, you are not using British malt which is highly modified. As I understand things, if you are using an under modified malt, you need to step mash in order to develop the enzymes for the starch conversion. In that case, heating the water to 160+ degrees would seem to be too high. Admittedly, I only use British malt, so I am guessing here. I'm sure somebody else could give you better advice.

The second thing is that I heat the mash water and the sparge water at the same time, all in one batch. That way, I only have one lot of water treatment to add. I grind the malt while the water is heating - plenty of time. If the mash turns out too cool, I borrow some water from the sparge water. If too hot, I add cold water. I then have plenty of spare time while mashing (which gives me an opportunity to sample a previous brew), and the sparge water only requires a minor temperature adjustment.
This really works well for me (but I don't step mash).

Good luck

-a.

 

[sebbeerbiker]

Just a couple of points, one of which I find useful.
As I recall, you are not using British malt which is highly modified. As I understand things, if you are using an under modified malt, you need to step mash in order to develop the enzymes for the starch conversion. In that case, heating the water to 160+ degrees would seem to be too high. Admittedly, I only use British malt, so I am guessing here. I'm sure somebody else could give you better advice.

The second thing is that I heat the mash water and the sparge water at the same time, all in one batch. That way, I only have one lot of water treatment to add. I grind the malt while the water is heating - plenty of time. If the mash turns out too cool, I borrow some water from the sparge water. If too hot, I add cold water. I then have plenty of spare time while mashing (which gives me an opportunity to sample a previous brew), and the sparge water only requires a minor temperature adjustment.
This really works well for me (but I don't step mash).

Good luck

-a.

Most modern malts are supposed to be well modified. GABrewboy is using american 2 row and belgian pale. These will be 100% fine in a single temp infusion mash. Sure, some people (George Fix for instance) have stated better yield (extraction) using a step mash. I've done it, didn't see a benefit, and the extra work made my brew day longer.

Seb

 

[ajf]

Most modern malts are supposed to be well modified. GABrewboy is using american 2 row and belgian pale. These will be 100% fine in a single temp infusion mash. Sure, some people (George Fix for instance) have stated better yield (extraction) using a step mash. I've done it, didn't see a benefit, and the extra work made my brew day longer.

Seb

Thanks for that information. Seems like I should bring my brewing library up-to-date.

-a.