American Sour Beer – Book!

[Oldsock]

Another new kick for me is cider. I wonder what happens when you add lacto, brett and pedio to fresh raw cider..... HMMMMMMM.... to use wine yeast first or not is the question.

Cider doesn't have many complex carbohydrates, so not much for the bugs after the primary fermentation. Brett will add some funk, but you won't get much acidity.

Just talked to the good people at http://cidercraftmag.com/ Friday for a story on weird homebrewed ciders (ice cider, funky cider, caramelized cider, dry hopped cider etc.)

 

[FredTheNuke]

A new Charlotte cider works (Red Clay Cider Works) has a hopped cider with Thyme added. Amazingly good! I was surprised at how well those flavors work together.

 

[joshrosborne]

Cider doesn't have many complex carbohydrates, so not much for the bugs after the primary fermentation. Brett will add some funk, but you won't get much acidity.

Just talked to the good people at http://cidercraftmag.com/ Friday for a story on weird homebrewed ciders (ice cider, funky cider, caramelized cider, dry hopped cider etc.)

Couldn't you just add some maltodextrin to give more to munch on?

 

[Oldsock]

Couldn't you just add some maltodextrin to give more to munch on?

Certainly one option. Alternatively you could pitch Lacto first to get the pH down, then follow it up with Saccharomyces. Haven't tried either... yet.

 

[finsfan]

Got the book earlier this week and only on page 50 but I wanted to say thanks to Oldsock for putting all of this research and information together. I am very new to sour beers (my first sour, a "lambic", is at 4 months but tastes fantastic) and this book is a great help. Some of it is still over my head but I am always up for learning about brewing. I already have my next 5 sours planned and purchased.

 

[otveit]

Hva vi år i 00aa

 

[sweetcell]

Hva vi år i 00aa

excellent point. Oldsock, what do you think about this?

 

[cinderbike]

Certainly one option. Alternatively you could pitch Lacto first to get the pH down, then follow it up with Saccharomyces. Haven't tried either... yet.

I'm probably going to attempt a 100% Brett cider in the next couple of weeks, I imagine that might be a valid strategy as well... although not sure how much character I'll get, it's worth a try.

 

[Max_Chavez]

I bottled a 100% brett(plus a lil natural yeast) cider a few days ago. Tastes awesome and I expect brett character to keep developing. I got characteristics similar to the primary brett flavors from the crooked stave bottles that it came from. I definitely did not get boosted acidity(didn't expect it either, as just brett) in fact the most acidic of 4 batches with basically the same juice was a clean ferment a friend did with DuPont dregs(he also added sugar, where I did not)
I will absolutely do more brett ciders

Cheers!

 

[Oldsock]

I'm probably going to attempt a 100% Brett cider in the next couple of weeks, I imagine that might be a valid strategy as well... although not sure how much character I'll get, it's worth a try.

There is no issue getting funk in a mixed-fermented cider. The Brett really doesn't require complex carbohydrates to do its thing. Not saying a 100% Brett cider isn't a great idea, it just doesn't address the acidity issue (if a sour cider is your goal).

 

[rowan57]

Just ordered the book! Slight flaw in my plan, selected my parents home address on Amazon so I won't see it for a couple of weeks until they come visit me.

 

[Wes440]

Oldsock,

I ordered the book from Amazon a few weeks back, and I'm having a blast reading it!

I'm going to attempt my first sour after I've finished it - working on figuring out what dregs I'd like to pitch as well...

Thanks for all of your hard work and dedication towards these crazy and delicious beers!

Cheers!

 

[Oldsock]

Oldsock,

I ordered the book from Amazon a few weeks back, and I'm having a blast reading it!

I'm going to attempt my first sour after I've finished it - working on figuring out what dregs I'd like to pitch as well...

Thanks for all of your hard work and dedication towards these crazy and delicious beers!

Cheers!

Glad to hear!

I've been floored by the response. So far it’s got 26 reviews on Amazon, 25 are 5-Star. The only one lower is 4-stars, starts “Great book,” and doesn’t contain any complaints. Almost enough to convince me to write another one, maybe in 10 years or so.

 

[Wes440]

Glad to hear!

I've been floored by the response. So far it’s got 26 reviews on Amazon, 25 are 5-Star. The only one lower is 4-stars, starts “Great book,” and doesn’t contain any complaints. Almost enough to convince me to write another one, maybe in 10 years or so.

I'll be posting my Amazon review in the weeks to come. Definitely a 5-star!

I can't imagine how much research and work goes into the process of authoring a book like yours - but I'm sure much of the work was great fun! I know that your book will prove invaluable once I set out on my quest for the perfect sour ale!

 

[masonsjax]

My review will start with "Meh, it's aight... " but it will have 5 stars.

 

[Matteo57]

Glad to hear!

I've been floored by the response. So far it’s got 26 reviews on Amazon, 25 are 5-Star. The only one lower is 4-stars, starts “Great book,” and doesn’t contain any complaints. Almost enough to convince me to write another one, maybe in 10 years or so.

Finally finished wild brews so ordered this the next day. Just got it and read the first two chapters last night. Awesome read so far!!

 

[mbbransc]

Got mine on SAT. Chpt 5 already.

 

[Oldsock]

Got mine on SAT. Chpt 5 already.

Cheers! If you made it through Chapter 4, the rest is less technical and more fun to read (well write anyway).

 

[mbbransc]

Cheers! If you made it through Chapter 4, the rest is less technical and more fun to read (well write anyway).

The hardest part for me has been waiting to finish the book before brewing my first sour. It was all I could do yesterday to walk out of the LHBS without some pilsner and roselare!

 

[Oldsock]

The hardest part for me has been waiting to finish the book before brewing my first sour. It was all I could do yesterday to walk out of the LHBS without some pilsner and roselare!

Why wait? Get a batch going now, and another one once you finish reading the book!

 

[TrickyDick]

It's a sickness for sure. I think a good 80% of the beer I've brewed in the past year has been sour beer. The ironic part is that I'm still planning the next and the next and so on, yet the first sour beer I brewed isn't ready to drink yet (but it has been bottled!).

This brings me to a question. I had read in your book, though has been some time, that it is similar to standard carbonation, but since many reach a very low FG to be sure they are done before bottling. It seems that it takes longer for them to carbonate in sampling two different bottles from two different batches. Also one had dramatic flavor changes after just four weeks. It was a little younger when bottled, but had cleared and reached final gravity. The other batch I bottled on the same date was from an older and much stronger beer, which had also reached final gravity. This stronger beer was near still when I opened the first bottle at 4 weeks. I'm thinking to just let them sit until Christmas which would be about the three month mark.
Also thinking that might be worth consideration to get a dedicated carbonation keg and force carbonate to the desired level, then bottle with a beer gun or counter pressure bottler. This would be in line with how I manage my clean beers, but would seem out of character for the sour beers, at least in how they are traditionally carbonated and bottled. What might be the negative aspects of force carbonating a wild or sour ale then bottling (without additional sugar of course)?

Thanks

TD

 

[Oldsock]

What might be the negative aspects of force carbonating a wild or sour ale then bottling (without additional sugar of course)?

No major drawbacks I can think of. I mention in the book the Remi Bonnart - NHC Brewer of the Year winner for a Flemish Red takes that approach for his sours. Trillium Brewing is doing that for their sours as well. As long as the Brett is alive it will continue scavenging oxygen and develop interesting flavors.

I'm just lazy, and in no particular rush with my sour beers. Bottle conditioning is so much less labor intensive.

 

[mbbransc]

Why wait? Get a batch going now, and another one once you finish reading the book!

I guess my consternation is because I'm not sure what I want my pipeline to look like yet!!

My current thought is maybe brew a 'golden' straight lambic each quarter that I can drink or experiment with fruit additions or blending. And then every other quarter brew a red or bruin because I really enjoy those too!!!

This is probably covered in the book and most assuredly on your blog, but if I brew a roeselare pilsner/2row/wheat beer now, how long before I can rack it to secondary and repitch part of the cake in a red or bruin (assuming no more sacch getting pitched with 2nd beer)?

Or should I just use sacch in primary and pitch roeselare in secondary? I seem to recall you pitch all of it at once. Logistics of what my pipeline will 'look like' is what I'm still trying to figure out in my head!!

And if I keep a jar of the roeselare yeast cake for another batch the following month, I assume I should leave it at room temp to preserve the bugs and then throw in some sacch yeast when I pitch?

thx

 

[Oldsock]

I guess my consternation is because I'm not sure what I want my pipeline to look like yet!!

My current thought is maybe brew a 'golden' straight lambic each quarter that I can drink or experiment with fruit additions or blending. And then every other quarter brew a red or bruin because I really enjoy those too!!!

This is probably covered in the book and most assuredly on your blog, but if I brew a roeselare pilsner/2row/wheat beer now, how long before I can rack it to secondary and repitch part of the cake in a red or bruin (assuming no more sacch getting pitched with 2nd beer)?

Or should I just use sacch in primary and pitch roeselare in secondary? I seem to recall you pitch all of it at once. Logistics of what my pipeline will 'look like' is what I'm still trying to figure out in my head!!

And if I keep a jar of the roeselare yeast cake for another batch the following month, I assume I should leave it at room temp to preserve the bugs and then throw in some sacch yeast when I pitch?

thx

I rack most of my sours after 2-3 weeks, when the Saccharomyces settles down. Using a reasonably fresh yeast cake like that there is no reason to pitch more brewer's yeast. Not a bad idea to augment with additional brewer's yeast if you are using an older yeast cake.

Pitching everything together in primary works for my tastes, especially when it comes to commercial blends without additional dregs.

Why use the same blend for everything? Are you sure Roeselare is the perfect blend for your tastes? I think it's nice to have a bit of variety when you are producing that much sour beer. Some batches that are a bit more acidic, or funky, or dry etc. for blending and to pair better with fruits or other addition.

 

[Pilgarlic]

For anyone "chomping at the bit" to produce a sour beer I offer this: In the book, Michael alludes to his opinion that the quickest way to a reasonably complex sour beer is to sour the wort then 100% brett ferment. Boom. Since having read that I have brewed three ten gallon batches this way and served each of them within 30 days of brew day. Each of these beers has been complex, sour, fruity and delightful, and two of the three have been VERY well received at two local fests.

The brett starter for the primary ferment starts ten days to two weeks before pitching. Each time I've stepped up to something like 30-50 ml of well-caked slurry. Three days out I made a lacto starter from 1.5 L of 1.030 wort to which I added a couple of handfuls of crushed malt. Brewed up a simple 1.050 wort, chilled it and pitched the lacto starter into 110-115 degree wort in the boil kettle. Put the lid on and let it go overnight and BY THE NEXT MORNING was at a clean, lacto-tart pH of 3.8. Boiled with a tiny (less than 5 IBU) bittering addition. Oxygenated and pitched the brett and let it run from 64 up to 74. Dry hopped at 2 oz per 5 gallons. Kegged when clear (or nearly) and served.

Don't ask for strains, malt bill or hop schedule, this is a process not a recipe. But the beer will be nicely tart and very fruity (the souring provides a substrate from which the brett can produce its fruity esters).

Start today and you can have a complex sour beer with brett fruitiness within six weeks. Don't expect it to last long.

 

[TrickyDick]

For anyone "chomping at the bit" to produce a sour beer I offer this: In the book, Michael alludes to his opinion that the quickest way to a reasonably complex sour beer is to sour the wort then 100% brett ferment. Boom. Since having read that I have brewed three ten gallon batches this way and served each of them within 30 days of brew day. Each of these beers has been complex, sour, fruity and delightful, and two of the three have been VERY well received at two local fests.

The brett starter for the primary ferment starts ten days to two weeks before pitching. Each time I've stepped up to something like 30-50 ml of well-caked slurry. Three days out I made a lacto brevis starter from 1.5 L of 1.030 wort to which I added a couple of handfuls of crushed malt. Brewed up a simple 1.050 wort, chilled it and pitched the lacto starter into 110-115 degree wort in the boil kettle. Put the lid on and let it go overnight and BY THE NEXT MORNING was at a clean, lacto-tart pH of 3.8. Boiled with a tiny (less than 5 IBU) bittering addition. Oxygenated and pitched the brett and let it run from 64 up to 74. Dry hopped at 2 oz per 5 gallons. Kegged when clear (or nearly) and served.

Don't ask for strains, malt bill or hop schedule, this is a process not a recipe. But the beer will be nicely tart and very fruity (the souring provides a substrate from which the brett can produce its fruity esters).

Start today and you can have a complex sour beer with brett fruitiness within six weeks. Don't expect it to last long.

Very cool! It's difficult for me to devote two consecutive days to brewing as a father of two school age children and working full time, and all else life has to offer. This may be a reason to try and carve out some time though. Also the time I spent on both days combined might work out to be the same since I'm stopping halfway through. Please detail how you do this. Once I had to quit mid brew day before boiling due to a severe thunderstorm, as I'm a propane outdoor brewer. Also, did you pastuerize or pre boil the collected wort before chilling to 110-115?

TD


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[Pilgarlic]

Very cool! It's difficult for me to devote two consecutive days to brewing as a father of two school age children and working full time, and all else life has to offer. This may be a reason to try and carve out some time though. Also the time I spent on both days combined might work out to be the same since I'm stopping halfway through. Please detail how you do this. Once I had to quit mid brew day before boiling due to a severe thunderstorm, as I'm a propane outdoor brewer. Also, did you pastuerize or pre boil the collected wort before chilling to 110-115?

TD


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

I did in each case "pasteurize" before chilling to 110-115 for the lacto. In one case I brought it up to 185 or so and in at least one another I briefly boiled.

One of the great advantages of this method is that the aerophilic enterobacter and others that tend to putrify wort or sour mashes never get a chance. They're extremely sensitive to pH and between the addition of the acidic lacto starter and the immediate increase in lactobacillus and lactic acid from the large, active starter the pathetic little creatures never have a chance.

 

[mbbransc]

Why use the same blend for everything? Are you sure Roeselare is the perfect blend for your tastes? I think it's nice to have a bit of variety when you are producing that much sour beer. Some batches that are a bit more acidic, or funky, or dry etc. for blending and to pair better with fruits or other addition.

I have no idea about Roeselare but it seems many are impressed with its overall blend. From what I've read too, subsequent pitches will be different as the percentage composite of the blend has shifted. So there will still be variety, right? And if I brew a golden lambic first (month 1), then an oud bruin (month 2), then flanders red (month 3), I'll still have quite a bit of variety. Then the following quarter maybe I could try something different.

I do plan on filling a growler with some wort and an airlock to dump dregs into. I'll probably start that on my next brew day.

I'm with TrickyDick on the commitments. Wife and two young boys at home, along with a full-time job monopolize the majority of my time (and I wouldn't have it any other way). So I do tend to be strategic about my brewing pipeline. Also have to brew up some IPAs, stouts, scottishs ales, etc to have something on hand to drink!!

 

[sweetcell]

Pilgarlic - awesome process. going to have to give this one a go some day.

one question:

Three days out I made a lacto brevis starter from 1.5 L of 1.030 wort to which I added a couple of handfuls of crushed malt.

why bother with the crushed malt? it contains lacto along with a bunch of other bugs, likely entero. you've got a pure culture of brevis in your starter, why mess with it?

 

[finsfan]

I rack most of my sours after 2-3 weeks, when the Saccharomyces settles down. Using a reasonably fresh yeast cake like that there is no reason to pitch more brewer's yeast. Not a bad idea to augment with additional brewer's yeast if you are using an older yeast cake.

Pitching everything together in primary works for my tastes, especially when it comes to commercial blends without additional dregs.

Why use the same blend for everything? Are you sure Roeselare is the perfect blend for your tastes? I think it's nice to have a bit of variety when you are producing that much sour beer. Some batches that are a bit more acidic, or funky, or dry etc. for blending and to pair better with fruits or other addition.

Since we are talking about racking and yeast cakes, I thought I would ask a question that came up today. You mentioned in the book that Brett can create unique flavors off of sacch autolysis when given time. Today I racked my "lambic", that had been in primary for 6 months, onto sour cherries. I stuck the auto siphon in the yeast cake and sucked up a good chuck of yeast on purpose for the reason above. Will this have the same effect of brett creating phenols from the sacch autolysis?