Ambient VS. Wort Temp

[Run_RMC]

I made a 1500ml starter with wyeast 1272 and will be brewing a tweaked version of the session CDA described on BrewingTV Here. Anyways, the wyeast site says 1272 has no problem fermenting around 60 degrees and my friend's place has a wine room that stays (temp controlled) at 60 degrees ambient. Wondering how much the temp variance will be from air to wort if I ferment in this room? I'm looking for a cleaner flavor so i want it to stay low but not so low that fermentation takes too long. Thanks for any advice.

FYI 5 gal batch in plastic bucket.

 

[Pie_Man]

I've found temperature differences between 4-10 degrees F during vigorous fermentation. The difference lessens after the first few days as fermetnation slows, however, it's my understanding that off flavors are mostly caused during the beginning of the fermentation process. Note: I use a glass carboy.

Perhaps try a swamp cooler in your friend's wine room, especially for the first 3 days or so. That should keep fermentation in the high 50s - 60 range.

 

[Run_RMC]

thats a huge swing-didn't realize it was that much-thanks!

 

[Pie_Man]

Yeah, those little yeasties create a lot of heat when they're doing their thing. Judging by the amount of posts where people ferment the typical ale strain at 75 degrees room temp, there's a lot of people that don't realize this.

Typically, the temperature differences I see are in the 4-7 degree range, but I have seen it go as high as 10 during one of my beers. Others on this forum have experienced similar results.

 

[homebrewdad]

I concur - I usually see a 5-10 degree swing, as well. Temperature control is needed for most styles if you want to avoid off flavors.

 

[WoodlandBrew]

I've seen as much as a 6 degree difference, but hear the 10 degree number quite often.

+1 to the water bath. Doubling the thermal mass with a water bath helps immensely. The temperature of the middle of the fermentation vessel will stay within one degree of the water bath.
For details:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2012/09/swamp-cooler.html
And
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2012/11/lagering-outside.html

 

[cheezydemon3]

Awesome on you for checking!!!!!

Most people just post up "furious fermentation!" or "Blown lid!" or "banana beer!" before they realize how important temp control is.

There goes one now!

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/no-blow-off-hose-crap-everywhere-370432/

 

[Xpertskir]

I've seen as much as a 6 degree difference, but hear the 10 degree number quite often.

+1 to the water bath. Doubling the thermal mass with a water bath helps immensely. The temperature of the middle of the fermentation vessel will stay within one degree of the water bath.
For details:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2012/09/swamp-cooler.html
And
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2012/11/lagering-outside.html

Not only is it doubling the thermal mass, its also reducing the ammount of the mass involved in an exothermic reaction by half.

 

[Run_RMC]

So if I'm putting my fermenter into a big tub with water in it and the temp in the room is 60. Will that extra water mass that isn't giving off any heat just help enough or will I need to ice the water as well?

Also when people talk about temp control are you putting your temp probe from the controller into your wort( or thermowell) or are you putting it just in the ferm chamber/fridge?

 

[WoodlandBrew]

If your fermenter is 5 degrees above ambient when it is out of a water bath then if you put it in a water bath it will be closer to 2 degrees above ambient. The water bath will also be about 2 degrees over ambient. One of the benefits of monitoring the water bath vs monitoring the air is that the water will be much closer to the fermentation temperature than the air.

 

[cheezydemon3]

A t-shirt over the fermenter dipping into the water will make it more effective. A small fan would help even more. the KEY is to chill the wort down to at least 63F or so. Trying to fight the temp when it starts at 70 is a losing battle.

 

[WoodlandBrew]

If the ambinet air is 60, with a water bath, the temperature will start at about 62 and drop over a couple of days to 60. (Assuming you chill the wort to 60 before pitching). If you use the t-shirt trick it will be more like 60 to 58.

If you want colder use ice like this:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2012/09/swamp-cooler.html

or move it outside like this:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2012/11/lagering-outside.html

If you want it warmer use an aquarium heater like this:
Fluval M 50-Watt Submersible Heater

 

[Pie_Man]

I think a few ice bottles will help to ensure that the beer's temperature remains at 60, or slightly lower.

Regarding your question about temp controllers, I personally just tape the temp controller probe to the outside of my glass carboy and wrap something like bubble wrap around the outside of the carboy. That seems to do the job. I start fermentation a little colder and adjust the temp controller settings as needed to keep the beer in my desired temperature range.

 

[cheezydemon3]

The main problem is re-circulation, or rather the lack of, both within the "bath" and within the carboy.

The yeast re-circulate the wort some but there can still be HUGE variation between to wort touching the outside of the carboy and the wort in the center.

My point? Over chilling and letting it slowly warm up is KEY. Once the center is at 70 the only thing that might get it down before damage is done would be a re-circulating ice bath. Anything less and the temp of the center of the fermentation would continue to climb.

 

[WoodlandBrew]

The main problem is re-circulation, or rather the lack of, both within the "bath" and within the carboy.

The yeast re-circulate the wort some but there can still be HUGE variation between to wort touching the outside of the carboy and the wort in the center. That is, unless you consider a 1/2 degree difference huge.

My point? Over chilling and letting it slowly warm up is KEY. Once the center is at 70 the only thing that might get it down before damage is done would be a re-circulating ice bath. Anything less and the temp of the center of the fermentation would continue to climb.

That's strange. What you are suggesting seems to be opposite of what I have experienced. Just out of curiosity, what are you basing these statements on?

In the fermentations that I have monitored temperature I have never seen a "HUGE variation between to wort touching the outside of the carboy and the wort in the center." It's normally about one degree worst case.

Also, I have never seen the issue with re-circulation that you describe. The temperature changes are very gradual during fermentation and I have never seen an issue. With ice, it seems, that lack of circulation is beneficial as it would cool the beer and melt the ice too quickly. A 20oz bottle of ice melts in about 45 minutes, and a 3 litter bottle takes about 2 hours. Most of us can only tend to a ice batch once every 12 hours so the less circulation of the water bath, the longer it takes to melt, and the more consistent the temperature will be.

Circulation of the bath would be beneficial if using an aquarium heater to reduce the temperature gradient from the heater to the wort, although not necessary. A 10 degree difference (beer to air) can be maintained with a 50W aquarium heater in a 5 gallon bath 1 foot from a 5 gallon ale pail.

I can see your concern with recirculation being an issue for a brewery with a 100 gallon conical, but not for a 5 gallon ale pail.

Out of all of my experimentation with water baths, including using a thermocouple in the middle of the fermenter, I have never seen the issue you are describing.

 

[BWN]

It seems like when you are at the lower end of the temp range with your ambient temp fermentation temps aren't that much higher. I think it is because the yeast aren't fermenting as vigorously as they would if they were warmer. I am just speaking from experience when my basement is 59 degrees fermentation temps might be 61 to 62 but when my basement is 68 I have to worry about temps getting up the mid seventies.

 

[WoodlandBrew]

when my basement is 68 I have to worry about temps getting up the mid seventies.

is that in a water bath?

 

[cheezydemon3]

I was only saying re-circulation was necessary if the temp was 75 and you were trying to lower it.

Lowering the temp is a lot more work for an ice bath than just keeping already low temps low.

 

[BWN]

No that is not in a water bath. I use one when temps get that warm though. I love this time of year though temps are perfect for ales right now. If I need to go warmer I use an aquarium heater with a small recirc pump

 

[beergolf]

It seems like when you are at the lower end of the temp range with your ambient temp fermentation temps aren't that much higher. I think it is because the yeast aren't fermenting as vigorously as they would if they were warmer. I am just speaking from experience when my basement is 59 degrees fermentation temps might be 61 to 62 but when my basement is 68 I have to worry about temps getting up the mid seventies.

This is my experience also. My basement is at 59 too and I have a batch that is fermenting with 1272 right now. The wort temp is 62-63 degrees.

When you are at the low end of the temp range for a yeast the differentialis only a few degrees. If you get to more the upper end for the yeast, then the temp differential seems to be more like 8-10 degrees.

This is why I always like to pitch at the low end of the temp range for a yeast. It is easier to control the temps.

 

[kanzimonson]

One thing that's not being addressed with the OP is what's your friend's "wine room" like? You said temp controlled but is that with a fan that circulates air, or is it chilled via something in the walls? If it's the fan, then I'd bet your yeast could stay pretty close to 60 degrees - maybe 2-5 degrees over during the most vigorous stretch of fermentation.

Regardless of what you do, just make sure that once fermentation begins to slow down you go ahead and pull it out of the wine room and let it warm up. Not a great thing to have the yeast get cold as they're cleaning up your beer.