Am I doing this backwards? Fermenting/bottle-storage questions

[stillbillmd]

I've just started home brewing. I'm using the BB extract kits and doing 5 gallon batches. My house is a rancher with an unfinished basement, and I cook in the kitchen on the main floor.

Room temp on the main floor - around 72 degrees.
Room temp in the basement - about 60.

What I've been doing when I ferment is leave the buckets in the laundry room next to the kitchen, mainly because I have a wonky back and carrying those buckets into the basement is tough for me. My gravities have been in or close to those on the instructions (though I'm an idiot and didn't adjust for temp).

After bottling, I've been storing in the basement, thinking that if any bottles exploded it wouldn't be near the mess it would cause on the main floor. I don't have really any "safe" places on the main floor to store them (in case of breakage and/or blowing up) other than the guest bath tub (rarely used).

Here are a couple of things I've noticed:

My fermentation (in a plastic bucket with airlock) starts very quick. Like, in a few hours. It also ends quickly (as seen in the airlock; I know it continues after that) - 18 hours or so.

I opened a bottle last week from the first batch (bottled for a week). There was a little carbonation, but not much. Aesthetically, I'm ok with that. The beer tasted fine. None of the 100 or so bottles I'm storing down there have blown as of yet.

So, my questions are:

1. Should I be fermenting in the basement (60 degrees) for an apparent slower fermentation?

2. What's the difference in beer quality between fermenting at 60 and at 72?

3. Would I be better off storing the bottles in my guest bath at a higher temp?

Thanks for any replies.

 

[joshesmusica]

yes you are doing it backwards. if you can, get some help to get those fermenters downstairs.

1) yes you should be fermenting in that ambient temp as compared to the ambient temps upstairs. you may have read by now, but temps in the fermenter can be quite a bit higher than the ambient temps during active fermentation. 5-15F higher in fact.
it has nothing to do with a slower fermentation, but rather the flavors that the yeast will produce at higher temps. typically flavors that you don't want in ales, unless otherwise specified.

2) again flavors. look up off flavors in beer, things like that.

3) i'm not gonna condemn you for trying a bottle at the one week mark. i do the same sometimes just to see the progression of the beer. but carbonation will most likely take up to two weeks at room temp, and you should really wait until about the 3 week mark to allow some further conditioning of the flavors. one experiment you could do in order to see for yourself the difference is at the one week, two week, three week, and four week mark after bottling put one bottle in the fridge. mark each one according to which week it was. then do a side-by-side test and you will see the difference in flavor and carbonation.

here is a method a lot of people are doing these days as far as fermentation/bottling temps:
- first 5-7 days at 65-68F (which means ambient from 60-63).
- Then take it up into the 70 range until you reach the 2 week mark (some people will leave it for even longer. i have a black ipa that i'm leaving for 3 weeks in primary). i actually wait until about day 9 because i dry hop in my primary, and i heard a podcast from a hop-master that said he doesn't ramp up the temps until he dry hops. but a lot of people do it around the 5-7 day mark.
- if you have a beer that requires a secondary (not just because the instructions on your kit say so, but because it's a beer that actually requires long-term aging) do that at this time for however long you have read up that it should be aged in secondary (again don't just go off of instructions from a kit. at the homebrew scale it's not always necessary to do a secondary).
- some people do a cold crash (not below freezing, but below 40F) for the last 2-3 days of it being in either primary or secondary. i don't personally have the capability to do this, and it's not super crucial to having clear beer if you've done a lot of other steps right.
- if you are not going to secondary, then you will instead bottle/keg at this time. leave it between 67-72F for 2 weeks for carbonation. the colder your conditioning temps the longer it will likely take. if you put them in your basement, it will likely take 3 or more weeks, which is completely fine because you're also giving it time to condition.
- after this point, put it in the fridge for a couple of days before you open it.
- now you can open and enjoy!

 

[flars]

Quote "So, my questions are:

1. Should I be fermenting in the basement (60 degrees) for an apparent slower fermentation?
Fermenting in the basement, with an ambient temperature of 60°, would be ideal. Yeast produces heat during active fermentation. The most active fermentation is in the first three to five days. Temperatures of the wort can rise 3° to 10°, depending upon the Original Gravity of the beer. Most ale yeasts will produce off flavors if the fermentation is to warm. The worst off flavor from fermentation temperatures over the yeasts optimal range are fusel alcohols, a very harsh and astringent alcohol bite when tasted.

The optimum fermentation temperature range for a certain yeast can be found on the manufacturers web site.
A stick on thermometer strip is the best way to track the temperature of the wort during fermentation.

2. What's the difference in beer quality between fermenting at 60 and at 72?

Off flavors will develop in the beer when the fermentor is in an area that has an ambient temperature of 72°, unless you are using certain Belgian ale yeasts which develop their specific flavors at temperatures up to 80°.

A yeast strain like US-05 and WY 1056, same strain except first is dry and second is liquid, develop the cleanest, neutral yeast flavors at 65° to 68°, bringing out the best of your beers ingredients.

3. Would I be better off storing the bottles in my guest bath at a higher temp?

Bottle conditioning is best at warmer temperatures. Optimum is about 68° to 75°. Beer will condition and carbonate at lower temperatures, but will take several or more weeks longer. High OG beers may take months.

Thanks for any replies." End Quote

The hydrometer is your best tool for determining when the fermentation is complete and the beer is ready to bottle. I will take the first Specific Gravity reading about day 10 to 12. I'll take the second SG reading a few days later. If the readings are the same, Final Gravity has been reached, and it is safe to bottle.

The typical active fermentation will be over in 4 to 10 days. After the active fermentation the yeast will begin cleaning up any natural off flavors, like diacetyl, that are produced during the fermentation. More time in the primary fermentor will allow the CO2 produced to off gas and suspended particles to drop out clearing the beer. Usually in three weeks, without cold crashing, the beer will be clear and ready to bottle.

Bottle conditioning at 72° will take several weeks and then a few days of chilling to force the CO2 into solution. Some beers are best only after several months of bottle conditioning to blend all of the flavors.

Hope this helps some. Ask any and all questions you have.

 

[stillbillmd]

Thank you, josh.

I have two batches fermenting right now - one that will be two weeks in this Saturday and one that'll be one week on the same day.

Will it help if I move them into the basement now or is whatever damage that's been done (if any) already finished taking place?

Thanks for the carbo-test hint. I will try that.

Should I move the already-bottled beer up into the 72 degree space now? As with the fermenting beer, one will be 2 weeks in the bottle Saturday and the other one week.

 

[stillbillmd]

Thanks, flars.

If I taste that fusel alcohol bite in my beer, is there a way to offset it at this late date? Or just accept it, drink it anyway, and count it as "lesson learned"?

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Will it help if I move them into the basement now or is whatever damage that's been done (if any) already finished taking place?

The advantages of the more optimum temperature for your yeast is really the fir 2-4 days when the majority of the activity takes place...for ale yeasts.

Regarding saving your back, I completely understand so let's talk about options:

Fill two buckets with half your wort each...carry that to the basement and either ferment in both or dump one into the other

Ferment in the Laundry room but use a swamp cooler

Ferment in the laundry room but close the vent and the door and let that room sit at a much lower ambient temp for the 3 or so critical days

Have someone else carry it to the basement for you.

 

[joshesmusica]

wow you're doing lots of brewing! how fun!

i wouldn't move the fermenters now. any off flavors produced are done within the first 5 days or so.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter8-2.html

there's a good chart for understanding yeast activity. the off flavors that can be produced are during the phase he's calling attenuative (which is the actual change of sugars to alcohol). the first two phases are probably the most critical time to control your temps.

if you have time read through that whole thing. tons of great info there, and it's free!

i would move your bottles to 72.

 

[joshesmusica]

as far as the fusels. i screwed up a batch (my christmas beer that i was planning to give away to tons of people of all things to screw up) by letting warmer temps happen (like 80F). got tons of fusels. it sucked. it still tastes bad. fusels don't really condition out. i'm gonna let this one sit until like may just to see what happens, but from what i read, it's not really gonna change the fusels in there. they're stuck.

 

[flars]

Thanks, flars.

If I taste that fusel alcohol bite in my beer, is there a way to offset it at this late date? Or just accept it, drink it anyway, and count it as "lesson learned"?

Once fusel alcohols have developed, there is usually nothing that can be done. I had it happen to a batch of beer a while ago. Let some of the bottles age for four years and the bite wasn't to bad, but after one pint the fusel headache did begin. I had dumped all but eight bottles.

 

[stillbillmd]

Wow - thanks for all of the tips and info!

Ok, so for the two that are fermenting I'll just leave where they are and save my back for the batch I'm gonna brew Saturday and it's basement trip.

I'll bring the bottles up tonight and put them in the bathtub until I can set up an adequate storage area upstairs somewhere.

Man, I hope I didn't fusel these up

Just for the record, the 1st batch was BB Robust Porter (that's the bottle I opened last week), 2nd was BB Golden Ale (bottled last week), 3rd was a BB Imperial Blonde Ale (fermenting for two weeks this weekend and was gonna bottle this weekend if the G is good), and the last was a BB Witbier (brewed last week).

 

[flars]

Are you doing partial boils or full boils? Partial boil can cut the weight to carry almost by half.

 

[stillbillmd]

Partials.

I don't know why I didn't think of carrying the partial down by itself and filling/pitching in the basement. Probably because it makes too much sense!

 

[stillbillmd]

What are the odds, do you guys think, that the beer is going to be undrinkable?

As I said, I tried the porter last week and didn't notice any harsh taste. So maybe that one will be ok, if not optimal.

 

[flars]

This will be a wait and see situation. You have one that tastes good, your other brews may come out good also. Have patience and give your beers sufficient time in the primary. Patience is often the hardest brewing technique to work with.

 

[RM-MN]

I prefer the "half a batch in each of 2 fermenters' with my bad back. Remember that if you combine them into a single fermenter you still need to carry them upstairs for the warmer temperature part of the ferment. Buckets are pretty cheap compared to fixing a back. With half batches I can use the 5 gallon buckets from Walmart at about half the price of the bigger fermenter buckets. If you don't "need to see the bubbles in the airlock" you can make a hole in the lid and cover it with saran wrap taped in place on 2 sides. That keeps the fruit flies out and still lets the excess gas escape. If you control the temperature during the early part of the ferment it will be slow enough that a 1/8" hole will be sufficient.

 

[stillbillmd]

What is the advantage of doing a multi-temp ferment as opposed to leaving it in my basement until bottling time?

At this point, I'm only using a primary and am not adding anything after my initial pitch.

 

[lazarwolf]

@joshesmusica, so I keep my ales at 63-68 for the first week. But I'm Old school, I Transfer them to a secondary in my tapadraft bottles and then move them to a fridge at 38-40. They come out super clean but kinda one note. Could this be why? Thanks for the chart, that's cool.

 

[joshesmusica]

what do you mean by one note?
there are many people seeing perfectly clear results by leaving beer in the primary for 2-3 weeks. myself included. the only time i've really had a beer that wasn't so clear was only one that had some chill haze, and i believe it was because i didn't watch my boil well enough.
so i personally don't use secondaries. but that doesn't mean there's not a place for them. that being said, i don't know about recommended temps for secondary because i only read up on techniques i plan on using right now. somebody else will have to chime in to answer that question.

outside of anecdotal evidence about ramping up the temps, i have only heard it or read about it from one person and he was a guy considered to be a master of hops. he said he does it when he dry hops, and i believe that has to do with that some hop oils are harder to extract at lower temps.
as far as the anecdotes (and even my personal experience), it is said that when you up the temps a bit, it helps the yeast in their clean-up phase.
but, if you're leaving your beers in primary for 2-3 weeks, at a steady temp (in the range discussed), there's no reason the yeast won't do some cleaning up. So if you're concerned about your back when bringing the beer back upstairs, then just leave it at the steady temps. Wait 3 weeks, then bottle.

As far as the off-flavors. beer/yeast is generally fairly forgiving. on the one my fusels were created, remember, i said it was 80F or above. if yours was 72-75, there might have been more than normal, but it won't have destroyed your beer. And even mine which is overloaded with fusels is still drinkable. Many people don't know that it's not supposed to taste like that. It's a very average beer. I'm just a perfectionist, so i hate it!

 

[flars]

What is the advantage of doing a multi-temp ferment as opposed to leaving it in my basement until bottling time?

At this point, I'm only using a primary and am not adding anything after my initial pitch.

I used to bring my carboys upstairs after two weeks of fermentation to warm up, but not anymore. To much heavy lifting and the risk of dropping one. My brew room is warmer than your basement though. Brew room doesn't get below 66°, which is optimal fermentation temperature for most of the yeasts I use.

60° may not be a harmful temperature to have your fermentors at after active fermentation, but the beer will take longer to clear because the CO2 produced will be slower to come out of solution. The CO2 can suspend particles in solution longer. In your situation I would go with warming the fermentors in place. Maybe just to get the beer to 68°. An adjustable aquarium heater would do the job. The tray I use for cooling, and soon heating, is a 7 inch deep restaurant bussing tray. Two for $12 dollars at Sams Club.

I will be getting my STC-1000 put together soon for temperature control, mainly increasing temps rather than cooling. I use swamp cooler for holding fermentation temperatures down.

The STC-1000 will control a aquarium heater for the tray of water the carboy will be in. There is a good thread on wiring your own STC-1000. here in HBT.

edit; I will only need some heat for WY3711. I'll warm this one to 75° to finish in the third week.

 

[lazarwolf]

I guess its time for me to actually read some beer books. I was taught to brew 20 some years ago by a college professor. I have read a little along the way. Recently I read Steven Deeds book. thought it was great. But I can always learn more.

What I meant by one note... they taste good. my friends and family enjoy them. But their isnt a lot of complexity to the flavors. Im starting to wonder if i should just do a single stage fermentation for 2-3 weeks then bottle or keg.

 

[joshesmusica]

i guess i can't recommend anything in general for every beer. because every style is different. i don't have a lot of equipment built up right now, so i do extract or partial mash. i also don't have the pipeline to wait for beers that need to be in secondary. so right now i stick with simple enough beers.
so going with that information, i go with 2 weeks primary, 3 weeks bottled. or for a slightly more complex beer i got with 3 weeks primary, then however long i think it should be conditioned in the bottle. with the christmas beer i made (an imperial oatmeal stout) i thought it could use 2 months to condition. with a black ipa i'm about to bottle, i plan to wait 3-4 weeks for that one, because it's very hop forward. i will bottle it at the three week mark.
i imagine that once i get to the point where i have a really, really good pipeline, i will wait 3 weeks primary, and 3 weeks bottled for my run-of-the-mill beers, and 3-4 weeks primary, and however long it's needed for conditioning for my more complex beers.
the beer i do the most (and get the most compliments from, my wife even suggested we go back to it for my next beer) is a hoppy wheat. i've adjusted it each time to try to make it exactly what is in my mind, but it's been consistently good. it's a hop forward wheat basically. i do 2 weeks primary and 3 weeks bottling for that.
so i guess the best advice i can give you is to just experiment! haha. not something everyone wants to hear, i know. but it's the best method i can come up with for you to develop your best beer.
take your home run beer. change up a specialty malt. if that's not the trick, add more late hops. if that's not the trick try temp changes.

 

[joshesmusica]

btw, almost every micro brewery out there has to have their one-note home run beer. it's what sells to the masses and pays the bills. so don't feel bad that you've found that. people love one note stuff.
but don't be afraid to take that beer and experiment with it a little (even try small batches so you don't dedicate a bunch of money to experiments).

 

[Onkel_Udo]

What I meant by one note... they taste good. my friends and family enjoy them. But their isnt a lot of complexity to the flavors. Im starting to wonder if i should just do a single stage fermentation for 2-3 weeks then bottle or keg.

Brew what you enjoy! I like low alcohol, very flavorful beers with balance hops...malty is my friend. I have a house beer or two that consume 80-90% of my brewing. A probably only go out of my comfort zone twice a year...because I like the beer I already make.

So...enjoy the beer you make and just work on improving your craft.

 

[joshesmusica]

another distraction from the OP:
i decided i needed to try my home run, even though i just bottled it like 5 days ago (because i love to see how flavors develop). it's amazing. this time i went to partial mash. still got a nice ratio of malt flavors, and citra/nelson sauvin make a great combo for hop forward beers.

 

[stillbillmd]

I was a little off on my basement temperature. It's more like 66 degrees. There are two heating vents in the duct line down there. I closed one of them to see if that makes a difference. I probably should just close the other, too. The air-handler for the furnace is smack in the middle of the unfinished basement and I'm guessing that generates a little heat, probably helping the room temp up to 66.

Anyway, even if it stays 66, that's still better for fermenting than at 72 upstairs. But is it still too high? I guess that would make my in-fermenter temp somewhere between 70-76?

 

[joshesmusica]

yeah i would personally try to get it lower. like closer to 60. but remember that the heat generated by the fermenting action is only in the first few days. after that point your temp inside your fermenter will start getting closer to the ambient temp.

 

[stillbillmd]

yeah i would personally try to get it lower. like closer to 60. but remember that the heat generated by the fermenting action is only in the first few days. after that point your temp inside your fermenter will start getting closer to the ambient temp.

Thanks, josh. Any tips for keeping a plastic fermenting bucket at lower than ambient temps? I don't have a "cold closet" (my house is pretty new and consistent on temps - one thermostat heats/cools the entire house so I can't isolate), a closet I could dedicate to fermenting, or any cooling equipment at present.

 

[joshesmusica]

a lot of people do the swamp cooler method. search for that. the nice thing about those, is that the temperature of the water is going to be closer to the temp inside the fermenter than ambient air. it's basically going back to the science behind heat transfer. you're wanting to transfer the heat out from your carboy. conduction transfer (swamp cooler) transfers heat at a higher rate than convection transfer (ambient air).

 

[Jim311]

Maybe it has been mentioned and I missed it, but what yeast did you use? I know US-05 is pretty tolerant of higher temps. My first batch was fermented at an ambient temp of 65ish degrees and pushed over 70 during fermentation, and it turned out alright. I will control the temp better in the future but it's pretty good.

 

[stillbillmd]

Maybe it has been mentioned and I missed it, but what yeast did you use? I know US-05 is pretty tolerant of higher temps. My first batch was fermented at an ambient temp of 65ish degrees and pushed over 70 during fermentation, and it turned out alright. I will control the temp better in the future but it's pretty good.

I don't recall what the yeasts were in each kit. They are all BB kits.