Almost no carbonation...

[Erythro73]

Hi everyone,
I've brewed 2 batches so far and my third batch is in primary. Each batch has been of 2.5 gallons. The problem is, with the two first ones, every bottles only had a very weak carbonation. The first one was in primary for 3 weeks and in secondary for two weeks before bottling, and the second one was in primary for 4-5 weeks before bottling. Each time, I waited 3 weeks before opening the first one. And, now, even 3-4 months after bottling, they are still with a very weak carbonation.

Important consideration: I only brew half batches (2.5 gallons).

Now, I'm trying to find what is going wrong with what I'm doing.

Here's my priming process:
1) Boil 1 cup of water in a very small pot.
2) When the boil is reach, I put in 2 oz of corn sugar
3) I wait around 10 minutes with the priming sugar solution boiling.
4) I stop the boiling, let it cool.
5) Pour it in my bottling bucket
6) Syphon the beer to my bottling bucket in the priming solution. I put the tube so the beer does a swirling motion which mixes the beer along with the priming solution. I do not stir myself.
7) Start the auto-siphon
8) Bottle and leave about a 1 inch from the bottle neck (I'm using a bottle filler)
9) Cap right after
10) Wait


What do I do wrong? Any idea? Everytime I cap, I check the bottles to be sure the cap is tight. And I put some upside down, delicately, just to check if beer can come out (did not happen) from the cap (which would mean the cap is incorrectly put on). I used different type of bottles, etc.

Now, next time I bottle, which is in a week or two, I'll probably stir the beer with a sanitized spoon -- just to be sure the sugar is evenly mix. I think there's huge chances that it might be it, but I wanna know if something else is suspicious with what I'm doing.

Thanks!



P.S. What do I mean by weak carbonation?
This:

and this:

Now

 

[Revvy]

The conditions of fermentation (time in primary or secondary) become pretty irrevelant in terms of bottling, so we need to look elsewhere for the issue.

Overall I see nothing wrong with your bottling process, except maybe not using enough priming sugar. Since typical kit brews call for between 4.5 and 5 ounces of sugar, you are using LESS than you should for the 2.5 gallon half batch. I always just use 2.5 ounces of sugar, unless I am carbig to style.

I really think too many new brewers put too much emphasis on the idea that you need to stir the sugar solution up with the beer. If you put it in the bottom, and rack on top the natural motion of the beer filling from the bottom to the top of the bucket is going to naturally mix the two just fine. Though I do recommend that brewers put half the solution in the bottom, then when they have racked half the beer, then add the rest. But honestly i don't think that makes a difference. Wehn racking you get enough agitation and even swirling to evenly mix your priming solution with the beer.

The only thing you don't tell us is at what temp are you leaving the bottles to sit for the 3 weeks minimum we recommend. Temp and gravity are the two most important factors to affect carbonation. 70 or above seems to be the magic temp line for getting a beer to carb up in a decent amount of time. Even a few degrees below will slow the process a bit (more than a couple degrees temp diff would affect us.)

And bigger beers do take longer. I've had high grave beers not begin to pop till 4-8 weeks or even 6 months for a high grav beer. So that will account for some of the beers not carbing. Stouts and porters have taken me between 6 and 8 weeks to carb up..I have a 1.090 Belgian strong that took three months to carb up.

Temp and gravity are the two factors that contribute to the time it takes to carb beer. But if a beer's not ready yet, or seems low carbed, and you added the right amount of sugar to it, then it's not stalled, it's just not time yet.

Everything you need to know about carbing and conditioning, can be found here Of Patience and Bottle Conditioning. With emphasis on the word, "patience."

If a beer isn't carbed by "x number of weeks" you just have to give them ore time. If you added your sugar, then the beer will carb up eventually, it's really a foolroof process. All beers will carb up eventually. A lot of new brewers think they have to "troubleshoot" a bottling issue, when there really is none, the beer knows how to carb itself. In fact if you run beersmiths carbing calculator, some lower grav beers don't even require additional sugar to reach their minimum level of carbonation. Just time.

I would make sure your beers are above 70 degrees, if not move them to someplace that is above that and check back in a bit.

Hope this helps.

 

[kevmoron]

The conditions of fermentation (time in primary or secondary) become pretty irrevelant in terms of bottling, so we need to look elsewhere for the issue.

This is highly debatable, especially with high gravity beers. Yeast do settle out over time and become weak especially in high alcohol conditions. It is not uncommon for there not to be enough healthy yeast left for bottling after sitting in a fermenter for an extended period of time.

Overall I see nothing wrong with your bottling process, except maybe not using enough priming sugar. Since typical kit brews call for between 4.5 and 5 ounces of sugar, you are using LESS than you should for the 2.5 gallon half batch. I always just use 2.5 ounces of sugar, unless I am carbig to style.

I really think too many new brewers put too much emphasis on the idea that you need to stir the sugar solution up with the beer. If you put it in the bottom, and rack on top the natural motion of the beer filling from the bottom to the top of the bucket is going to naturally mix the two just fine. Though I do recommend that brewers put half the solution in the bottom, then when they have racked half the beer, then add the rest. But honestly i don't think that makes a difference. Wehn racking you get enough agitation and even swirling to evenly mix your priming solution with the beer.

From personal experience, this is also not true. It is possible for the relatively dense dextrose solution to stratify. I've had a couple of batches for which there were some bottle bombs, some overcarbed, some carbed just right, and some undercarbed because of this. I don't think this is the problem here, however, as some would still be carbonated just fine.

The only thing you don't tell us is at what temp are you leaving the bottles to sit for the 3 weeks minimum we recommend. Temp and gravity are the two most important factors to affect carbonation. 70 or above seems to be the magic temp line for getting a beer to carb up in a decent amount of time. Even a few degrees below will slow the process a bit (more than a couple degrees temp diff would affect us.)

And bigger beers do take longer. I've had high grave beers not begin to pop till 4-8 weeks or even 6 months for a high grav beer. So that will account for some of the beers not carbing. Stouts and porters have taken me between 6 and 8 weeks to carb up..I have a 1.090 Belgian strong that took three months to carb up.

Temp and gravity are the two factors that contribute to the time it takes to carb beer. But if a beer's not ready yet, or seems low carbed, and you added the right amount of sugar to it, then it's not stalled, it's just not time yet.

Everything you need to know about carbing and conditioning, can be found here Of Patience and Bottle Conditioning. With emphasis on the word, "patience."

If a beer isn't carbed by "x number of weeks" you just have to give them ore time. If you added your sugar, then the beer will carb up eventually, it's really a foolroof process. All beers will carb up eventually. A lot of new brewers think they have to "troubleshoot" a bottling issue, when there really is none, the beer knows how to carb itself. In fact if you run beersmiths carbing calculator, some lower grav beers don't even require additional sugar to reach their minimum level of carbonation. Just time.

I would make sure your beers are above 70 degrees, if not move them to someplace that is above that and check back in a bit.

Hope this helps.

If it isn't carbed in three months, it isn't going to carbonate. Your yeast are dead. Add a milliliter of healthy, alcohol-tolerant yeast slurry into each bottle and it will work.

 

[Revvy]

Clearly my experiences have been different than yours mr moron...and of most of the folks who I have given the same answers to have come back and had successes, so your experiences may be different, but I wouldn't keep given the same answers if the feed back wasn't enough to warrant it....

I stand by my answers.......besides, what does your answers actually do to help the OP? At least he has something to go from with mine. What does yours contribute to the discussion at hand?

*shrug*

 

[Erythro73]

The conditions of fermentation (time in primary or secondary) become pretty irrevelant in terms of bottling, so we need to look elsewhere for the issue.

Overall I see nothing wrong with your bottling process, except maybe not using enough priming sugar. Since typical kit brews call for between 4.5 and 5 ounces of sugar, you are using LESS than you should for the 2.5 gallon half batch. I always just use 2.5 ounces of sugar, unless I am carbig to style.

I really think too many new brewers put too much emphasis on the idea that you need to stir the sugar solution up with the beer. If you put it in the bottom, and rack on top the natural motion of the beer filling from the bottom to the top of the bucket is going to naturally mix the two just fine. Though I do recommend that brewers put half the solution in the bottom, then when they have racked half the beer, then add the rest. But honestly i don't think that makes a difference. Wehn racking you get enough agitation and even swirling to evenly mix your priming solution with the beer.

The only thing you don't tell us is at what temp are you leaving the bottles to sit for the 3 weeks minimum we recommend. Temp and gravity are the two most important factors to affect carbonation. 70 or above seems to be the magic temp line for getting a beer to carb up in a decent amount of time. Even a few degrees below will slow the process a bit (more than a couple degrees temp diff would affect us.)

And bigger beers do take longer. I've had high grave beers not begin to pop till 4-8 weeks or even 6 months for a high grav beer. So that will account for some of the beers not carbing. Stouts and porters have taken me between 6 and 8 weeks to carb up..I have a 1.090 Belgian strong that took three months to carb up.

Temp and gravity are the two factors that contribute to the time it takes to carb beer. But if a beer's not ready yet, or seems low carbed, and you added the right amount of sugar to it, then it's not stalled, it's just not time yet.

Everything you need to know about carbing and conditioning, can be found here Of Patience and Bottle Conditioning. With emphasis on the word, "patience."

If a beer isn't carbed by "x number of weeks" you just have to give them ore time. If you added your sugar, then the beer will carb up eventually, it's really a foolroof process. All beers will carb up eventually. A lot of new brewers think they have to "troubleshoot" a bottling issue, when there really is none, the beer knows how to carb itself. In fact if you run beersmiths carbing calculator, some lower grav beers don't even require additional sugar to reach their minimum level of carbonation. Just time.

I would make sure your beers are above 70 degrees, if not move them to someplace that is above that and check back in a bit.

Hope this helps.

Hi, Revvy. Thanks for your answers.

However, my beers weren't big ones. They were a vanilla stout with an OG of 1.054 and a belgian wit with an 1.058 OG. Normal beer, as far as I'm concerned. I knew stout can take longer to carbonate (read on your blog), but after 6 months, I lost hope on them. As stated, it was a fairly week stout, not very complex. Same goes for the witbier.

After bottling, I let them at room temp. I do not control (I only control during fermentation). However, my apartment is pretty hot, and at least higher than 70 all year long (there's a lot of old folks in my building who want the building to be very warm). During the summer, the beer have sit at a temperature of 90F... I checker the closer temperature a few time during spring and winter, and it was around 72F.


And I used this calculator to calculate the proper amount of priming sugar: http://www.tastybrew.com/calculators/priming.html

along with Palmer's book.

And I always calculate for 2.5 gallons who get into the bottle. But it's much less than that, as I have 2.5 gallons into the fermenters, but due to various loss, I only bottle around 2 gallons...

 

[Revvy]

I still can't see anything obviously wrong with any of your process though. Are you using standard crown caps? Or are you using perhaps twistoffs with a bench capper or grolsh bottles? If using crowns, how tight are you capping them?

It appears you've done everything you are supposed to.

All I can suggest is try the stirring thing and see. I doubt it will make that much of a difference, but if it helps than great. I set my hose under my bucket dip tube so it follows the curve of the bucket, so when I am racking I can see the swirling motion as it rises, and in some lighter colored beers I can almost see the priming solution integrating with the beer as it flows.

Another stab in the dark, are you positive you are grabbing the corn sugar and not the lactose by mistake? I did that once. They look alike, but obviously the lactose won't carb the beer.

 

[Erythro73]

I still can't see anything obviously wrong with any of your process though. Are you using standard crown caps? Or are you using perhaps twistoffs with a bench capper or grolsh bottles? If using crowns, how tight are you capping them?

It appears you've done everything you are supposed to.

All I can suggest is try the stirring thing and see. I doubt it will make that much of a difference, but if it helps than great. I set my hose under my bucket dip tube so it follows the curve of the bucket, so when I am racking I can see the swirling motion as it rises, and in some lighter colored beers I can almost see the priming solution integrating with the beer as it flows.

Another stab in the dark, are you positive you are grabbing the corn sugar and not the lactose by mistake? I did that once. They look alike, but obviously the lactose won't carb the beer.

Nope, I don't have any lactose at home. I checked with the LHBS guy, and he insured me that he sells corn sugar, and not something else.

I remember one time, when a friend was at home, one of the bottle had a really good carbonation. It happened one time. The other ones all had only small carbonation. Maybe the swirling motion I'm trying to give when transferring to the bottling bucket isn't big enough to mix thoroughly. It's true that the flow is rather small. Next time, I really should but a number on them to identify the level of carbonation with respect to their position during bottling.

I'm using crown cap and I'm using an Emily Capper. My girlfriend is the one operating it, as she is way better than I am with it. I always check after to be certain that every bottle is tightly capped (with the sides correctly on the bottle). And we test some bottles to be sure no beer can flow if we put the bottle inside-down.

Another thing to check would be to insure the sugar is well-enough dissolve in the water. If not, then maybe it just sticks to the side of the pot.... But this would surprise me as boiling water should dissolve sugar fairly easily!

 

[ThatGuyRyan]

Your sugar is a little low as Revv already stated but everything else looks fine. My first few times bottling I didn’t even swirl the beer/sugar mix I just dumped in the cooled sugar added the beer and filled the bottles with no issues.

The only other thing I can think of and wasn’t mentioned is what you use to sanitize your bottles and how. Also what do you clean your serving glasses with. Glasses that have been washed in a dishwasher can kill the head of a beer from the detergent residue.

 

[Revvy]

The only other thing I can think of and wasn’t mentioned is what you use to sanitize your bottles and how. Also what do you clean your serving glasses with. Glasses that have been washed in a dishwasher can kill the head of a beer from the detergent residue.

Good point here too. Also how are you cleaning the bottles?

 

[Erythro73]

Your sugar is a little low as Revv already stated but everything else looks fine. My first few times bottling I didn’t even swirl the beer/sugar mix I just dumped in the cooled sugar added the beer and filled the bottles with no issues.

The only other thing I can think of and wasn’t mentioned is what you use to sanitize your bottles and how. Also what do you clean your serving glasses with. Glasses that have been washed in a dishwasher can kill the head of a beer from the detergent residue.

I clean my bottles with oxyclean (not free ... not available here, but the oxyclean doesn't leave any noticeable perfume). I wash them two times (one after drinking from them, and one another time before bottling). I rinse the hell out of them: I fill them 3-4 times with hot water, fill partially and shake the bottle hard, and fill them another time with water.

I sanitize them with Starsan with the Vinator. I push my bottle a few time on it, remove some foam (but don't sweat on it), and put a sanitized cap on my bottle (so no dust can enter the bottle while I'm preparing the other bottles).

I clean my glasses in the sink. I rinse them carefully with clean water as to remove soap residue and such. With commercial brews, I have no problem with carbonation and head in these glasses.

The beer tastes good. No taste coming from cleaning/sanitizing product as far as I can tell.

 

[passedpawn]

Try more sugar next time. 2.5 oz, for example. For a 5g batch, I don't weigh, I just use 3/4 cup. So, you should be using about half of that (I know I should weigh, but meh; BTW, I did weigh 3/4 cup one time and it was 4.4 oz).

I like to offer the suggestion that the problem is not carbonation but head retention. Some things you can do to a beer can seriously reduce the head retention. Conversely, there are things you can do to increase head retention. Here's some ideas (I don't know how you brew, so some/all of these might not apply to you):


Bad for head

• Unclean Glass (the term beer-clean exists for a reason)
• High Alcohol beers
• Drinking with food (oil on lips kills head quickly)
• Some adjuncts like chamomile, coconut, etc.
• Fatty lipids in beer (from trub at bottom of fermenter)
• finings, i.e., whirlfloc, irish moss (these encourage the precipitation of proteins in the cold break and later during fermentation)

Good for head

• Carapils! Wheat.
• Pouring method
• unmalted grains (huge protiens!)
• hops

I'm sure there are lots of other ideas. Maybe this is a red herring, tho. G'luck!

 

[msa8967]

Regarding Revy's initial advice, I followed the same advice he gave you several months for a cream ale that was around 1.051 OG and 1.011 FG. My beer showed no carbination at all after 6 weeks of being bottled so I placed the cases in a warmer area (around 72 F) and gently rolled each bottle a few times to get any yeast sediment off of the bottom. Three weeks later everything was great. This may not work for every problem but it is a very simple solution to try. Perhaps put 1/2 of your bottles this way if you are unsure and want tp try anpther solution for comparison.

just my 2 cents

 

[passedpawn]

I've made an embarrassing amount of well-carbonated beer in my life, and I've never "gently rolled" a bottle.

But I do second the temperature requirements. I have always kept them at at least 75°F (not hard to do in FL, but perhaps not so simple in the frozen north).

 

[Oldyote]

I'm still pretty new at this but to me it seems that most of the time the only thing we try to control is priming sugar and temperature.

The big unknown is the amount of active yeast still remaining. If there are a lot of happy little buggers still floating around and we use the right amount of sugar etc. then we have nice carbonation in two or three weeks. If there is not enough yeast well than it just takes a lot longer which is why we become good at honing our virtue of patience. While home brewing has made me a much more patient person, I've decided I don't have enough patience to hope I still have happy yeast when bottling.

For my last three brews I've pitched 2 grams of Safale US-05 with my priming sugar. In all three cases I had a nicely carbed beer in three weeks and they were all high gravity brews. I have no way of knowing if I would have had the same result if I had not pitched the Safale, but for less than a $1.00 I'll take the chance

 

[Diver165]

From someone who resurrected some apple cider made with Nottingham yeast. Tempurature during carb stage is everything. While making a batch of cider I cold crashed it for 2 weeks then bottled it. It was as clear as a bell. I put it in my basement (66-72F) to carb up. About 3-4 weeks everything carbed up nicely. I figured everything was stable. So I moved it to an area inside the house for storage and BOOM! Inside my house is 72-75. That difference in temp caused the cider to take off again and started popping bottles. While I realize beer is different than cider it does show how a slight increase in temp can directly affect yeast activity and carbonation levels.

I second what others have said too. The temperature at which you bottle condition and the cleanliness of your bottles has a lot to do with the end product's carbonation. Something is killing your yeast or putting them into a dormant state.

 

[msa8967]

My beer showed no carbonation at all after 6 weeks of being bottled so I placed the cases in a warmer area (around 72 F) and gently rolled each bottle a few times to get any yeast sediment off of the bottom.

I should have said rotate or flip each bottle over a few times. This worked for my beer to try to get the yeast active again. I had been storing it in the basement at 65-66 F in order to condition a bit and was told that the yeast may have been dormant.

 

[cklages]

Just a thought, but is it possible that the combination of a very cold serving temperature and being used to fairly highly carbonated beers that are common in the domestic market have changed your expectations of what fully carbed is? I remember thinking that imported beers from europe and the UK seemed somewhat undercarbed to me, until I figured out what a good beer tasted like