All Grain: What is the advantage?

[Cheesefood]

Yeah, but it's real nice to walk out of the HBS with all your ingredients and change from a $20, versus $40 - $50 for decent-sized, DME-based batches. It may take a year or two, but I'll get my money back.

Bird, you like spending money as much as I do. How are you going to recoup?

Bird and I were talking about kegging the other night and we figured it come out in the $1,000 neighborhood for a kegging set up. How long to recoup that?

 

[the_bird]

You can't count kegging towards the cost of AG; that decision is independant of the extract/AG debate. What, you can't keg extract beers?

But yeah... well, I don't really like spending money, but I like *buying stuff*...

 

[zoebisch01]

I guess I should add to my theory is that you have to take into account how much you consume lol. I do have a good stock now so I guess the time frame will extend into the future. As long as nothing major breaks and I don't upgrade anything, I guess that is the key to the cost game. :fro:

 

[Todd]

You really can't go into it as a cost-saving measure unless you get all your equipment for free.

I agree. Cost really didn't play a role for me. I didn't like extract beer and I love my AG.

Now I did manage to convert over to AG for really cheap. I had copper already, I had a cooler, built a braid for $15, got an old keg cut for free, borrowed my fathers turkey fryer burner. So really it cost me $15 to convert, I get my grains precrushed from Austin and I normally reuse yeast.

My beer now tastes like good beer, not something you would assume came from a kit. Sort of like craft mac and cheese vs homemade.

 

[BarryNL]

What's a complete bill of materials to convert to all-grain? I already have everything to do extract with speciality grains, so I guess I'd need:

- Grain Mill
- ~30 litre pot for boiling
- burner + gas (or is a kitchen stove sufficient?)
- Mash tun
- Wort cooler

Probably a carboy too, I don't bother racking to secondary now, but with the extra trub from AG I guess I'd need to.

 

[BierMuncher]

What's a complete bill of materials to convert to all-grain? I already have everything to do extract with speciality grains, so I guess I'd need:

- Grain Mill
- ~30 litre pot for boiling
- burner + gas (or is a kitchen stove sufficient?)
- Mash tun
- Wort cooler

Probably a carboy too, I don't bother racking to secondary now, but with the extra trub from AG I guess I'd need to.

Grain Mill - No need. You can have the place you buy it from crush it for you...no charge.

~30 litre pot for boiling - Yes. I've seen SS versions for $65 on line

burner + gas (or is a kitchen stove sufficient?) - Definitley want an outdoor burner. I use my turkey fryer set up...including a tank, prolly around $90-$120

Mash tun - Yes, 5 gallon Rubbermaid at Sams for $18 plus about $15 worth of plumbing supplies.

Wort cooler - Yes, a 25 foot section of flexible copper tubing at Lowes ran me about $34 plus some vynil tubing and a couple hose connectors and clamps. Total, less than $45.

Load up on the carboys. I love to brew and carboy capacity is the only thing that backs me up (besides cheese). I bought 6 corny kegs to use as secondaries.

Take a look at my link below in my sig and you'll see most all the equipment that I used on my first AG...and still use...

 

[zoebisch01]

burner + gas (or is a kitchen stove sufficient?) - Definitley want an outdoor burner. I use my turkey fryer set up...including a tank, prolly around $90-$120

The only thing I'll interject here is that if your kitchen stove is propane or natural gas and has a sufficiently high enough btu burner you might be fine. I brew indoors, full 7 gallon boils and my boil off is about a gallon per hour. Then again, I did purchase the model range top for that reason (the high btu burner). Plus I never have to deal with bad weather screwing me up. On the down side it'll produce some heat in the summer months, but during the cold season when the warmth is welcome it is a plus.

 

[Cheesefood]

Bier's list will eventually piss you off.

Get a pot 10 gallons or more.
Get a cooler 10+ gallons $20-$40
Manifold or SS braid - $5.00 - $20.00
Weldless spouts: $15-$30 each
Paddle or Spoon: $5-$25
Burner: (Variable)
Chiller: $45-60

For a pot, you can see if the 44qt turkey fryer combo is still available, or you can go the keggle route at a cost of anywhere from free to $350 (depending on what kind you get and your view on keg return policies).

 

[Desert_Sky]

Grain Mill - No need. You can have the place you buy it from crush it for you...no charge.

well it is a hell of alot cheaper to just pick up a 55lb bag of grain instead of buying each lb individually from you LBHS

 

[Bobby_M]

I figured out that it will take 23 five gallon batches using bulk purchased 2-row, to break even on my mill (only taking into account the pure per-pound cost.

You end up saving a lot more in gas saved not having to drive to the LHBS on a per-batch basis. If you mailorder, the same can be said for shipping savings I suppose.

Basically I have enough grain to do up to 8 batches and the cost is fixed.

 

[EdWort]

I figured out that it will take 23 five gallon batches using bulk purchased 2-row, to break even on my mill (only taking into account the pure per-pound cost.

You end up saving a lot more in gas saved not having to drive to the LHBS on a per-batch basis. If you mailorder, the same can be said for shipping savings I suppose.

Basically I have enough grain to do up to 8 batches and the cost is fixed.

You bring up some good points. I did the calculations on the beers I make most.

My Haus Pale Ale (10.5# Grain, 2 oz. Cascade, Nottingham) costs $7.85 per batch and that's paying retail for the yeast and 1/2# of Crystal 10L. The same ingredients for a single batch purchased at the HBS would cost $17.17 (Saving of $9.32 per batch)

My Bavarian Hefeweizen (11# grain, 1 oz. Hallertau, Wyeast 3068) costs $7.01 per batch and that considers getting 4 batches from 1 Wyeast smack Pack. The same ingredients for a single batch purchased at the HBS would cost $26.17 (figuring 1 smack pack per batch). (Saving of $19.16 per batch)

I also calculated the cost to make one trip to the local HBS. $8.86 in gas, not to mention about 2 hours of my time (I can't just walk in, get what I want, and get out. Nah, just can't do it). So when you factor that, if I were to drive to the HBS for one batch, my Haus Pale would end up costing $26.03 and my Bavarian Hefe would cost $35.05. If it were DME based, it would be even more.

Factor those costs and going all grain and buying bulks starts to provide ROI pretty quick. Plus it's just plain cool to go out to the garage and decide I'm gonna brew tonight.

 

[Rhoobarb]

...Grain Mill - No need. You can have the place you buy it from crush it for you...no charge...

You're lucky. Most places near me charge to grind your malts - usually $0.25/lb.

Why go AG? I really can't add more than what's already been said. I did extract w/ steeped grain brews for about seven years before going all grain. I lived in a condo back when I started brewing and going AG was tough. But I moved to a bigger place with an actual garage and big backyard in 2000 and could have gone AG right then. But I kept doing extract brews until 2005! After I went AG, I wished I had done it sooner!!!

IMHO, it really has improved the quality of my beers and the flavor variety. I found that when I went AG, I ended up brewing a lot more often, too. I've not been out of homebrew since that fateful day in July, 2005!

And it doesn't have to be expensive to jump into AG. My first set up cost me under $200. The Barley Crusher grain mill was the biggest expense and ~half of that figure. I was able to use (and still do) most of my equipment from my extract days.

 

[boo boo]

Nothing will put a smug look on your face faster than saying to somebody " I brewed this from scratch".
My brews inproved a fair bit although I made some decent extract brews. The price per batch was recouped very fast in my case as I got a mill as a christmas gift, already had a turkey frier setup, so the only things I really had to buy was a cooler for a mash tun and some SS braid from a toilet supply hose.

 

[jdoiv]

My Haus Pale Ale (10.5# Grain, 2 oz. Cascade, Nottingham) costs $7.85 per batch and that's paying retail for the yeast and 1/2# of Crystal 10L. The same ingredients for a single batch purchased at the HBS would cost $17.17 (Saving of $9.32 per batch)

My Bavarian Hefeweizen (11# grain, 1 oz. Hallertau, Wyeast 3068) costs $7.01 per batch and that considers getting 4 batches from 1 Wyeast smack Pack. The same ingredients for a single batch purchased at the HBS would cost $26.17 (figuring 1 smack pack per batch). (Saving of $19.16 per batch)

I also calculated the cost to make one trip to the local HBS. $8.86 in gas, not to mention about 2 hours of my time (I can't just walk in, get what I want, and get out. Nah, just can't do it). So when you factor that, if I were to drive to the HBS for one batch, my Haus Pale would end up costing $26.03 and my Bavarian Hefe would cost $35.05. If it were DME based, it would be even more.

Factor those costs and going all grain and buying bulks starts to provide ROI pretty quick. Plus it's just plain cool to go out to the garage and decide I'm gonna brew tonight.

Curious Ed, where do you buy your grain from? Those are some good prices. I just bought 50# of pale malt and priced out one of my recipes and came up with about $15 per 5 gallon batch (I acutally do 10 gallons, so double that). I'm going to start buying the grains and hops I use the most in bulk and harvesting my yeast to save costs.

 

[debtman7]

You guys get better deals than I do... I figured I'd save some money going all grain but I can't say I've saved a ton... Compared to buying canned extract at the LHBS it's far far cheaper.

My standard pale ale:

10 lb 2 row = $12 ($1.20 per pound)
1 lb victory = $1.20
1 lb crystal 60 = $1.20
2 oz black malt = $0.10 (eh, I buy a big bag it lasts forever)

1 oz simcoe = $1.30
2 oz amarillo = $2.60
2 oz cascade = $2.60

1 packet us-56 = $1.75

Total: $22.75

Extract version, well, victory needs to be mashed... But I can get extract bulk for $2.15 a pound, it would take rougly 7.5 lbs of LME which would cost $16.13. Net savings, roughly $4.

I'd love to know where you can get 10.5 lbs of yeast, a packet of dry yeast and 2 oz of hops for less than $8... The prices I used above are from listermann's, which is somewhat cheaper than my LHBS and I get free shipping which usually arrives the next day. I've seen lower prices online but usually by the time you factor in shipping it ends up being more.

 

[zoebisch01]

You should be able to get your LHBS to get you a 50 - 55 lb bag of base malt less than $50. If for nothing else, base malt comprises the bulk of your grain bill anyhow. Buy what you use the most. Plus you'll have plenty of grain for several brew sessions.

 

[debtman7]

You should be able to get your LHBS to get you a 50 - 55 lb bag of base malt less than $50. If for nothing else, base malt comprises the bulk of your grain bill anyhow. Buy what you use the most. Plus you'll have plenty of grain for several brew sessions.

Cheapest I've found a 50lb bag of grain for is $40. Then I'd need to buy a mill. That'd work out to $8 for base grain, saving another $4. I'm still at over $18 Granted I could brew cheaper, but I like my beers around 1.050 and pretty hoppy. My pale ale uses simcoe for bittering, amarillo for flavor/aroma and then is dry hopped with cascade. The hops add up, but holy crap does it make a tasty beer.

I'm planting a few jumbo cascade rhizomes soon so that should make that cheaper. I could bulk order hops to save some money, but I tend to brew a variety of beers so I never know what I'll need. The only thing I really make repeatedly so far is my standard pale ale.

 

[BierMuncher]

... But I can get extract bulk for $2.15 a pound, it would take rougly 7.5 lbs of LME which would cost $16.13.

That is cheap for LME.

My LHBS sells 3.3lb cans for $12-$13 each.

That's one of the reasons I do AG...that plus I like brewing my beer "from scratch".

Course, I'm not much for canned tomato soup either....

 

[debtman7]

That is cheap for LME.

My LHBS sells 3.3lb cans for $12-$13 each.

That's one of the reasons I do AG...that plus I like brewing my beer "from scratch".

Course, I'm not much for canned tomato soup either....

Yep, same with my LHBS. But you can order it bulk much cheaper, and I generally bought enough at a time to get free shipping. AG is much cheaper than canned extract at the LHBS but not nearly as much cheaper when you can get bulk extract.

 

[abracadabra]

I. Hey, a lot of people like it, but try serving one to someone down in Savanna Georgia and you'd probably get punched in the face ;-)

Nah, we'd just spit it out and ask for water, a beer or a co-cola that's
coca cola for those of you not fortunate enough to have been born in the south

American by birth Southern by the grace of god

 

[EdWort]

Curious Ed, where do you buy your grain from? Those are some good prices. I just bought 50# of pale malt and priced out one of my recipes and came up with about $15 per 5 gallon batch (I acutally do 10 gallons, so double that). I'm going to start buying the grains and hops I use the most in bulk and harvesting my yeast to save costs.

I got mine at North Country Malt Supply. I worked up a pallet order with a bunch of other local homebrewers. We each stepped up and ordered a couple hundred pounds, so we ended up with a whole pallet of 42 bags, each 55#.

Ordering a whole pallet allows you to spread the freight costs across 42 bags, which brings down the price considerably. NCM, then lets you buy hops & chemicals with no freight charge. It's just a flat fee for the pallet plus a fuel surcharge.

They are great to deal with and even will split up the charges so multiple folks can use their creditcards to buy the load.

I'll do it again in 6 or so months depending on my brew rate.

 

[BierMuncher]

Bier's list will eventually piss you off.

Get a pot 10 gallons or more.
Get a cooler 10+ gallons $20-$40
Manifold or SS braid - $5.00 - $20.00
Weldless spouts: $15-$30 each
Paddle or Spoon: $5-$25
Burner: (Variable)
Chiller: $45-60

For a pot, you can see if the 44qt turkey fryer combo is still available, or you can go the keggle route at a cost of anywhere from free to $350 (depending on what kind you get and your view on keg return policies).

Just tryin to answer his questions cheese.

I'm on my 11th AG since Christmas with my "list" and I'm not pissed off yet...

 

[Orfy]

Hang on guys......

All you lot doing the Dollar on Dollar equations......

Lets say you have a hobby... Golf maybe.

Now how much would such an hobby cost you say once a week at 6 hours a time?

Now because you brew for an hobby you are saving all those costs.

You should be looking at that in the equation.

It is not just about the cost,

 

[ranger13]

Here it is. AG is cheaper once you get the equipment and control. ex baking a cake from a box or from scrach. Don't get me wrong boxed cake is not bad but moms home made one is better. hehehehe

 

[EdWort]

It is not just about the cost,

Believe me, I know. I've invested quite a bit to get back in the game and am happy to have done it too. I'm just at a later stage in my life and as a home brewer which allows me to be able to better afford the gadgets and things that go with brewing. It's a very cool obsession that can be done very inexpensively or for those with the mega bucks, can get one of those B3 awsome sculptures.

Me, I'll settle for the Brauhaus first......

Man, I love the rain and we need it, but I need some dry time to get my pad poured!

 

[Bobby_M]

Hang on guys......

All you lot doing the Dollar on Dollar equations......

Lets say you have a hobby... Golf maybe.

Now how much would such an hobby cost you say once a week at 6 hours a time?

Now because you brew for an hobby you are saving all those costs.

You should be looking at that in the equation.

It is not just about the cost,

Any of my other hobbies would kill the cost of brewing. Scuba? Ha, after two thousand in gear, it's only about $100 per day. Snow skiing about half the cost, but still more than brewing.

 

[Brewiz]

Try owning a Harley for your other hobby. I've got to do a service and change out a rear tire, that will come in around $200 and that's me doing all the work. But Man is it nice down here right now 70-80 during the day and 50's at night.....

 

[EdWort]

Man is it nice down here right now 70-80 during the day and 50's at night.....

I hear ya! Enjoy it while it lasts. A/C 24/7 is still a ways off here in Texas.

 

[McCall St. Brewer]

once you go all grain you'll soon want to start growing your owne barley and hops...

Say what? Hops, maybe, but barley? I don't think SWMBO would be too thrilled if I plowed up our back yard and planted barley back there!

Still, if I had a small farm....

 

[boo boo]

Hang on guys......

All you lot doing the Dollar on Dollar equations......

Lets say you have a hobby... Golf maybe.

Now how much would such an hobby cost you say once a week at 6 hours a time?

Now because you brew for an hobby you are saving all those costs.

You should be looking at that in the equation.

It is not just about the cost,

I agree wholeheartly. I still golf however. But in my case I figure I'm saving enough money not buying commercial beer and also having given up smoking affords me the luxury of brewing the great beers I've been producing.

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Try owning a Harley for your other hobby. I've got to do a service and change out a rear tire, that will come in around $200 and that's me doing all the work. But Man is it nice down here right now 70-80 during the day and 50's at night.....
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Yeah, I had to sell mine. I couldn't afford to run both a bike and a car, and well I do need a car. I still jump to the window evertime I hear the Bruuup,
Bruuup, spit, backfire, going up the road. Sigh. Gotta love the shovels, even though I had a evo.