All Grain RIMS/HERMS Setup *New In Box*?

[BillyVegas]

So, I'm making the move to Kegging and All Grain... go me.

Kegging I have underway as Im slowly acquiring the parts and equipment necessary for myself....

The AG Setup however, I'm a bit mixed on.

I live in a small place where I can barely get away with some Full Boil Extract brewing and a few primarys and secondaries laying around in the way... So the move to AG clearly is pushing the limits of my space.
I'm considering utilizing some of my friend extra garage space or basement space or anything I can find to get my AG underway...

After researching RIMS and HERMS systems, I'd love to build one and make it happen- but I think I'd like to do that more customized to my tailored needs in my own personal space when the time comes... so in the meantime, I'm looking for a comprimise.

Are there any RIMS or HERMS Systems that, essentially, come all complete out of the box ready to go? I've seen the BrewMagic and the similar $3-6k systems, and while thats great and I'd love it, I dont think I'm ready to drop that much on my first AG system... but I don't mind shelling out some cash on something nice that will work well with minimal fuss. And, it seems finding a system used is like finding a needle in a haystack... understandably so, if I made mine I couldn't part with it...

Sorry, Im sure this was discussed in depth elsewhere, but I couldn't find it after a few searches... and I always like feedback and criticisms...

 

[slimer]

With these systems, they are mostly custom unless you put down the serious coin.

I'm in process of my RIMS and am adapting it to fit on/in a tool cart. It would be considered a two-tier system.

 

[BillyVegas]

Yea, exactly.

I was hoping there was something out there I haven;t found that was... somewhere in between.

 

[Bobby_M]

I won't suggest that you limp into a system but you don't necessarily need a formal structure at the same time that you develop your vessels, liquid and heat management system. The issue with an off the shelf system, especially when you're new to AG, is that you don't really know what you want yet.

Are you positive you need RIMS/HERMS? The majority of all grain brewers are probably not convinced. A large pot on a burner coupled with a cooler based mashtun is really all you need. If you want to get fancier and shave some time, you can add a second pot and burner for a dedicated hot liquor tank.

After brewing on that for a year, you'll get to learn what your real needs are.

 

[BillyVegas]

Thanks Bobby... but my immiedate goal is to have a system where I can essentially get consistent results and start developing and testing recipes of my own...

Granted, I need some experience on a basic system, but my thought is if I get all that equipment, it will be about 2-3- batches until I want to get a RIMS system... so essentially I'm skipping that step.

Silly? Perhaps... but I think if I'm gonna do it, I might as well do it.

 

[BrothersBrewing]

Morebeer.com makes brew stands, and you can buy a complete setups soup to nuts...around 1800+shipping...

 

[Sawdustguy]

This may be of interest to you:

15.5 Gallon All Grain Brewing System from Synergy Metalworking $1,695

 

[Bobby_M]

I understand the desire for consistency, but you don't need a turnkey for that. You can get consistent mash temps in a cooler with out a recirculating system. If you've got a couple thousand to spend, by all means look at morebeer's stuff.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

It makes sense to me. I think brewing on an unstructured rig is frustrating and believe me I have been frustrated for a while....

I just brewed for the first time with my "getting-close-to-almost-done" rig and it was BY FAR my most enjoyable brew day. I mean, light and day more relaxing and fun.

I just put this parts list together for a friend who is in a similar situation. It does not include a stand of any kind and is not a RIMS or HERMS, but it could with an extra $300 ish.

Equipment
001 3 kegs $30.00 $90.00 Discount liquor
002 2 1/2" tube -1/2" FPT Compression fitting (90 deg elbow) SS-810-8-8 $20.00 $40.00 McMaster-Carr 5943K216 McMaster-Carr
003 1 1/2" tube -1/2" FPT Compression fitting (straight) $20.00 $20.00 McMaster-Carr 5182K135 McMaster-Carr
004 3 1/2" close nipple $1.72 $5.16 Buy Fittings Online 27-4P1-1/8 1/2" Threaded NPT Nipples 1/2" x 1-1/8" (close) 304 SS
005 3 1/2" ball valve $8.20 $24.60 KLG Stainless INC - Ebay.com
006 3 1/2" barb - 1/2" MPT $1.78 $5.34 KLG Stainless INC - Ebay.com
007 3 1/2" Stainless Steel Washer $2.50 $7.50 Bargain Fittings - Bargain Fittings
008 3 1/2" Stainless Steel Locknut $4.50 $13.50 Bargain Fittings - Bargain Fittings
009 3 1/2" Silicon O-ring size 211 $0.25 $0.75 Bargain Fittings - Bargain Fittings
010 20 1/2" ID 3/4" OD Thermoplastic Tubing $1.40 $28.00 Northern Brewer 7128 NORTHERN BREWER: Siphoning Equipment
011 3 banjo burners $77.99 $233.97 Northern Brewer #40202 NORTHERN BREWER: Burners
012 3 Brewmometer $39.99 $119.97 Northern Brewer #7417 NORTHERN BREWER: Thermometers
013 1 copper tubing 50' x 1/2" $36.00 $36.00 coppertubingsales.com
014 1 copper fittings for chiller $20.00 $20.00 big box store
015 1 false bottom $50.99 $50.99 Northern Brewer #7588 NORTHERN BREWER: All-Grain Equipment
$695.78

This is a super basic brewery with no bells and whistles, but will do a good job.

 

[Bobby_M]

Right, well that's nowhere near a turnkey system either. It's basically 3 equipped vessels with burners. I'm not arguing either way but I think it's easy to get mesmerized by shiny vessels and control panels without really understanding why.

Some more things to consider:
1. Do you really have any need to step mash?
2. Do you have storage space for a large rig?
3. Do you need portability?
4. Do you have an electrical service that would support a RIMS system and/or full electric system?

 

[BillyVegas]

Boerderij_Kabouter !!! YES!!

This is a great start for my needs!

Never visited Northern Brewers site, they look to have some great stuff for what I've been thinking about... electrical in-pot heaters, inline therms, this, that, lots of burners... great stuff.

I'm sure I'll be pestering you in the future for some thoughts on my setup if you dont mind...

 

[BillyVegas]

Bobby- I appreciate the voice of reason in this, as I often feel I'm getting overwhelmed with what I'm thinking I want to accomplish. While I like shiny, new equipment... that's not the only reason...

If I get the location Im thinking of, space, storage, and electrical will be taken care of.

Do I have a need to step mash? Probably not... would I like to or at least have the ability... of course.
Storage and Electrical I can get if I use the location Im thinking of, and Portability isn't that important.

Ideally, I'd like a rig that requires minimal effort from myself to get up and running right now, and would allow me to experiment with as many processes and attain as much consistency as possible.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Billy, take a look at my build thread (link in my sig). That is the system I am building toward and it allows you to build slowly while maintaining a functioning system.

 

[Sawdustguy]

Billy,

Keep in mind that you will have to drill the Keggles and install weldless fittings or have them TIG welded on the Keggle. You will also have to cut the tops off the keggles with a grinder or plasma torch. The system Boerderij mentions is a total DIY brewery. Is that what you want? It doesn't sound that way from your original post.

 

[Bobby_M]

Everyone has opinions and there exceptions to general rules of thumb but the desire to step mash is a big factor. The easiest step mash system would be direct fired MLT based RIMS and that requires a metal tun (the often copied Brutus10 fits here). It can't be insulated so that sucks. After that, electric heated tube RIMS is probably next best. The MLT can be a cooler or at least a very well insulated metal vessel. I'd argue that running an element on a controller is much more user friendly and energy efficient than a gas solenoid. HERMS isn't much different if I had to pick a downside, it's the fact that the HLT has to be full of water at temp for the whole mash. There are two trains of thought on control here. One is to constantly recirculate the mash and control the HLT's temp via the HEX output temp. The other is to cycle the pump on/off based on a probe directly in the mash while a second controller holds the HLT at temp. I'd build the former. I'd seriously look at "the_Pol"'s electric HERMS system. It leans towards the more practical, less pretty side of things. Coolers don't exude the bling factor, but if temp consistency is what you want, that's where it's at on a budget. Taking the big burners and gas valves out of the equation is nice.

That's a lot of decision making before you even get into the "sculpture" part of the system. That's where Boerderij_Kabouter's basic startup plan is sound. Even if you look at my system, it's basically 3 burners with kegs on top and a pump to move liquid. Quite manual at this point, automation can come later.

While I'm waffling on the whole thing, I think deciding between natural gas, propane and electric is a good first step because the rest of the engineering will be based on that.

 

[BillyVegas]

Yes... I'm seeing that that build requires a large amount of welding and work... which, your right, is against my original intent.

However, his idea with some of the Keggles I've seen that have all the welding and connections done already... *could* lead to something more like what I want... with minimal work involved.

But, you're correct, this is far from turnkey. But, I love the layout and concept... I'm reading his build thread as I type... well... you know what I mean.

 

[BillyVegas]

These look great for the "less work" angle I'm looking at... but pricey.

BREW-MAGIC BOIL / SPARGE KETTLE

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I agree with Bobby in that it is difficult to know what you want before you have brewed for a while.

A HERMS is great for maintaining temps but is impractical (for all but one person who somehow has a working system) for step mashing. RIMS works for step mashing, but as Bobby pointed out you need either an uninsulated metal tun or a separately controlled element.

Propane/NG/electric... etc. etc. etc. There are soo many options to think about.

You could try bringing some ideas to a local fab shop and asking how much they would charge to build it for you. It may be very expensive, or maybe not. Depends on the shop. You could talk to your local community college and ask if your project could be used as a project.

FWIW, my system is all weld-less fittings. I find they are very easy to install, solid, leak-free, and easy to change/replace/clean once a year with zero risk of rusting or costing an arm and a leg.

 

[Bobby_M]

The full brewmagic system is $5600 and is truly turnkey. Electric RIMS for mash control, gas for everything else.

The B3 1550 with full digital package is $3800 and basically just as good.

 

[samc]

I am a jump in and get it going guy. I am almost done building a system that I have no clue about whether or not it is the right system for me. Being somewhat adaptable I figure I will learn to love it or I will sell it and build it bigger/smaller and better if need be. I decided that the best way to learn was by doing.

I have a stand, 3 keggles, control panel with BCS controller, two March pumps and a Sawdustguy inspired atomic bomb looking stainless recirc mash heater. Also a 50' copper IC and a Catt inspired pipe bomb counterflow chiller. I am 95% complete and almost ready to try it out. I have used everything but the Panel & mash heater so far and I think it will make brewing easier and clean up faster.

Although not for me, I would go with something like the brew with heater elements in 10 gallon cooler ala The Pol design. That set up looks light weight and easy to transport to your other location and back if need be.

Best of luck with whatever way you go!

 

[BillyVegas]

Thanks for the line Sam... but I don't need portability. Id be keeping the system in this second location and doing all brewing there...

I'd LOVE a Brew Magic system...as Im sure most would... but $6k is steep... and while the B3 1550 is nice... $4k is still out of budget.

This puts me right back where I thought... piecing together something myself.

 

[HomebrewJeff]

Honestly, I think you best bet is to start with the basic components and add as needed. Depending on much work you can/want to do, you can save significant amounts of money while still getting all of the bells/whistles of a commercial system.

1- HLT
2- Mashtun (Cooler)
3- Kettle
4- Propane burner

If you have a bench that is higher than your kettle, you can use gravity to do some of the transfers.

Brew for a while, and add on if you really need it.

 

[Sawdustguy]

Thanks for the line Sam... but I don't need portability. Id be keeping the system in this second location and doing all brewing there...

I'd LOVE a Brew Magic system...as Im sure most would... but $6k is steep... and while the B3 1550 is nice... $4k is still out of budget.

This puts me right back where I thought... piecing together something myself.

Good point Billy. What exactly is your budget? A number of posts ago I posted about a system that may be in you budget.

This may be of interest to you:

15.5 Gallon All Grain Brewing System from Synergy Metalworking $1,695

Below are some pictures of the brewery. It is made of 1.5" steel tubing. It comes with three keggles with Tig welds and stainless fittings. The Mash Tun comes with a False Bottom and sparge system and the system has two 200,000 BTU propane burners. You also get two Blichman thermometers for the Keggles. You can have it as a Two Tier Stand or Single Tier Stand. If you consider that the 3 keggles you are looking at from Sabco will cost $1595, this is a bargin. All you need to start brewing is some silicone tubing, some quick disconnect tubing fitings and a March pump. If you want to add HERMS or RIMS capability at any time everything is reusable. Just add your HERMS coil or RIMS heater and you are in business.

 

[Bobby_M]

I guess this is an example of where wants and budget are two different things. New in box is pretty expensive when you want RIMS/HERMS because it also implies pump(s) and probably automatic temp control including two controllers and SSR or solenoid valves.

If you're just looking for a 3-vessel system on some kind of stand, that's much cheaper as Guy pointed out. Sabco's vessels are pretty steep because they start with legally obtained decommissioned kegs. YCMV (your conscience may vary).

Guy, does that HLT have a bottom drain on it? Pretty slick. Also, do you have any trouble with melting your reflectix insulation from the adjacent burner?

 

[Sawdustguy]

Bobby,

I built my system based on a Sabco stand but my brewing buddy bought the Synergy Metalworks system. I almost bought the single tier stand from Synergy but I went with Sabco because my vision was cloning the Brew-Magic system minus the automation. I weld (I am a real amatuer) but was really feeling lazy at the time and bought the Brew Magic stand only. His HLT does not have a bottom drain. He has the two tier system. His HLT gravity drains into the Mash Tun. It's actually a really nice little system for not too much scratch. He has a single March Pump and does his connections with QD's and silicone tubing.

 

[BillyVegas]

Im looking $2k or less... Ideally...

I like the Synergy system... I'd like to hear from some people who've had and use it... but you're right. With this and some fittings/tubing... I'm on my way to not only a hearty AG system, but customization is endless...

I like.

 

[HomebrewJeff]

Im looking $2k or less... Ideally...

I like the Synergy system... I'd like to hear from some people who've had and use it... but you're right. With this and some fittings/tubing... I'm on my way to not only a hearty AG system, but customization is endless...

I like.

Wow, I guess it really depends on what you really want. Personally, looking at the system, I see a very basic/barebones system. The bulk of the cost is coming from the labor on the welds and stainless stand. (i.e. You can make the same beer on a stainless, aluminum, steel, wood stand etc.)

The Synergy system is shiny, a lot of stainless, but that's about it. $1700+ for a system where you are lifting buckets of wort into the kettle... yikes, and there is no wort chiller. You could easily add on other 400-500$ parts, and that's just to get a basic system, so no automation or anything like that.

Stainless looks really nice, but doesn't make your beer taste any better.

 

[Darwin18]

You can make the same quality of beer with a large pot, a turkey fryer and a modified cooler for a fraction of the cost. My suggestion would be to go this route first to see if AG batches are really what you're into before you sink a couple grand into a shiny system.

I mean no disrespect but having a shiny expensive system isn't going to make your beer taste that much better.

 

[Sawdustguy]

The Synergy system is shiny, a lot of stainless, but that's about it. $1700+ for a system where you are lifting buckets of wort into the kettle... yikes, and there is no wort chiller. You could easily add on other 400-500$ parts, and that's just to get a basic system, so no automation or anything like that.

Stainless looks really nice, but doesn't make your beer taste any better.

I disagree Jeff. For $200 more (March pump, Immersion Chiller, QD's and silicone tubing) he is all set and he doesn't have to lift any wort. The original poster stated that he didn't want to build anything. For under $2000 he is in business and doesn't have to lift a finger to do build anything. For another $200 he can add the RIM heater and PID without doing too much work or HERMS for probably less than that, when he is comfortable with the system. It sounds as if the OP would be happy with this system. My brewing Buddy has one and loves it. Probably because he is the most unhandy person I know (Sorry Phil) and would never think of DIY'ing anything.

I am not affiliated with Synergy Metalworking.

 

[HomebrewJeff]

I disagree Jeff. For $200 more (March pump, Immersion Chiller, QD's and silicone tubing) he is all set and he doesn't have to lift any wort. The original poster stated that he didn't want to build anything. For under $2000 he is in business and doesn't have to lift a finger to do build anything. For another $200 he can add the RIM heater and PID without doing too much work or HERMS for probably less than that, when he is comfortable with the system. It sounds as if the OP would be happy with this system. My brewing Buddy has one and loves it. Probably because he is the most unhandy person I know (Sorry Phil) and would never think of DIY'ing anything.

I am not affiliated with Synergy Metalworking.

I guess my point was you could "easily" spend 400-500 more, not necessarily that you had to. However, if you are spending that much on the stainless, it would be silly (IMO) to add a bunch of brass to it, and stainless QD are pretty expensive.

Again, I'm not saying it's a bad system or anything like that, just the cost/value ratio. Even if you say 2 grand, that's still a lot of money for what you are getting. And the list of cool things to buy never ends ... Grain mill, refractometer, fermenters, temp control for fermenter, kegging setup, etc, etc. To each their own I suppose.

I am not affiliated with a competitor of Synergy Metalworking.