All-grain Curious

[doug293cz]

Dear Mister Predicted Scoffer, some people think eating snails are great, but not for everyone. I totally stand by my CORRECT and PROVEN statements.

Your statements are neither "correct" nor "proven." They are nothing more than your opinions. You are entitled to your opinions, and others are entitled to theirs. In brewing there are usually many ways to accomplish the same task. Each brewer can make up their own mind about which methods they prefer.

Brew on

 

[deuc224]

Brewtools is considered BIAB, no regrets from my end and sparging consists of nothing that wasnt included.

 

[Golddiggie]

IME, BIAB is a fairly low cost way to get into all grain brewing. It's not the same as using an actual mash tun (whatever the mash tun is made from). Also, IME, I'm happier with the three vessel setup I have than I was with BIAB. I hit the limitations of kettle size with BIAB pretty quickly when I was doing it. Which is why I shifted to using an actual mash tun.

Everyone who starts brewing needs to figure out what works best for THEM on their own. People can advise from their own experience until the universe goes cold. Doesn't mean people will listen at that point. I would be interested in knowing how many realize, later, that those people actually knew what they were talking about.

 

[lurker18]

I went with the all in one electric system last year, Brewzilla, and wish I would have gone to it much sooner. I don't bother with presetting anything, just sit by and watch a movie or tv and wait for the timer to go off and get up and change the temps or whatever. Super simple, gets a good boil so not sure what everyone's complaint is there, and cleaning is easy. Takes up very little room, I brew in my basement, and if I want I just pick it up and move. 110 v, so plug and go. Hardest thing is setting up the cooler coil, have to unhook a water line and hook up the cooler, takes me about 2 minutes.

 

[IslandLizard]

How are you planning to heat your kettle? Brewing inside or outside? Propane or electric?

Brewing 5-5.5 gallon batches requires heating around 9 gallons of water in total, and boiling around 7 gallons down to 5.5-6 gallons.

With your current setup, using your 5 gallon kettle you can easily brew 2.5-3 gallon all-grain batches, even BIAB with some finagling, if you want to get in the swing of it, right now.
That's also around the maximum volume (4-5 gallons) that can be boiled comfortably on many stoves in the kitchen, although some will allow you to boil 7-8 gallons with the lid left on part ways, which is A-OK. Or boil concurrently in a 2nd kettle.
That way you can test which way you want to go.

You can also brew back to back to make larger 5-6 gallon batches, or maybe better, 2 different ones.

 

[IslandLizard]

Most importantly, if you like brewing, all grain is very rewarding, and worth the journey! Don't let your environment limit you, be inventive, resourceful, you'll get there.

Requirements:
(Mill) especially for BIAB
Large kettle or 2 smaller ones
Adequate heat source(s)
Chiller
The right space

 

[Reneauj62]

Your statements are neither "correct" nor "proven." They are nothing more than your opinions. You are entitled to your opinions, and others are entitled to theirs. In brewing there are usually many ways to accomplish the same task. Each brewer can make up their own mind about which methods they prefer.

Brew on

That is true, its my opinion. Which is what the initial conversation was asking for...opinions. My experience is that the BIAB beer is subpar compared to real brewing methods.

 

[bleme]

more expensive because you have to buy more grain (less efficient),

I've gotten over 90% efficiency by draining, squeezing, sparging and squeezing again. BIAB is as efficient as you want it to be.

I've seen bags tear open and then there is that mess.

I've never had a bag tear, even with massive squeezing. Wilser bags are made to last.

Then you have to have a pulley system of some sort

Or some of us have things called muscles.

and the beer is still then only so-so.

I'm part of a very active brew club, most of them don't do BIAB yet nobody has ever considered my beer subpar. When I donate to beerfest, my club always has at least 8 beers and I am always one of the first to empty my keg.

You cannot sparge.

See #1. The fact that you put this out there as a fact is laughable.

 

[fendersrule]

That is true, its my opinion. Which is what the initial conversation was asking for...opinions. My experience is that the BIAB beer is subpar compared to real brewing methods.

It isn't true. Please show me double blind taste tests. Do have any empirical sources? Please explain how it's a "pain in the ass" (when actually it's the complete opposite). "Hokey" is not even a debatable topic.

You don't need to sparge because you are FINE CRUSHING your grains. That is what you CANNOT do with 3V brewing. Do you ever wonder about why you don't need to sparge with BIAB?

You know what's a pain in the ass? A stuck sparge, and carrying out, storing, and cleaning 3 separate vessels on a brew day. Oh yeah, and performing 2 separate water chemistry calculations.

You know what you are dead wrong about? "Cannot sparge" with BIAB. Even though it is not needed for great efficiency, you do realize that dunk sparging is a common BIAB sparging method, right?

 

[Snuffy]

BIAB beer is subpar compared to real brewing methods.

That's harsh, man. BIAB executed by someone who has their process dialed-in could be indistinguishable from beer produced by anybody, any way. Extract brew can be excellent. Not sure what your point even is here. The art of brewing is skill- not kit. Monks have brewed beer we can only imagine in wooden vats with open fermentation.

I do like the Unibrau setup. It looks like a system that has powered on beyond the design limitations of most electric brewing units. But it's expensive. And I guarantee it could brew mediocre beer without some trial and error.

 

[Reneauj62]

That's harsh, man. BIAB executed by someone who has their process dialed-in could be indistinguishable from beer produced by anybody, any way. Extract brew can be excellent. Not sure what your point even is here. The art of brewing is skill- not kit. Monks have brewed beer we can only imagine in wooden vats with open fermentation.

I do like the Unibrau setup. It looks like a system that has powered on beyond the design limitations of most electric brewing units. But it's expensive. And I guarantee it could brew mediocre beer without some trial and error.

I have been brewing since 1985, probably long than most of these IPA and BIAB snobs have been alive... You stick to what works for you and I will do what works for me. The blogger asked for opinions, however some people cannot accept different views, reminds me of politics...Funny, how ONLY ON THIS FORUM (And no others I have experienced) when someone disagrees with your experiences you get vile, viscous, and unwarranted responses... Seems to be a lot of arrogant pricks on here.

 

[bleme]

I have been brewing since 1985, probably long than most of these IPA and BIAB snobs have been alive... You stick to what works for you and I will do what works for me. The blogger asked for opinions, however some people cannot accept different views, reminds me of politics...Funny, how ONLY ON THIS FORUM (And no others I have experienced) when someone disagrees with your experiences you get vile, viscous, and unwarranted responses... Seems to be a lot of arrogant pricks on here.

Look in the mirror dude. Your first post spent half a sentence putting forward your idea of a good system and you spent the rest of the post tearing down other peoples method - a method that may not work for you but has been proven over and over again to be effective. Still, nobody called you a single name but look at the foul stuff you are spewing.

Edit: I just went back and re-read every response to your post and I fail to see anything that could remotely be called "vile, viscious and unwarranted". Get some help.

 

[tracer bullet]

I totally stand by my CORRECT and PROVEN statements.

That is true, its my opinion.

Seems to be a lot of arrogant pricks on here.

You're kind of all over the map, and quite possibly the example you are referring to in that last post. Maybe just quit the thread?

 

[Snuffy]

I have been brewing since 1985, probably long than most of these IPA and BIAB snobs have been alive... You stick to what works for you and I will do what works for me. The blogger asked for opinions, however some people cannot accept different views, reminds me of politics...Funny, how ONLY ON THIS FORUM (And no others I have experienced) when someone disagrees with your experiences you get vile, viscous, and unwarranted responses... Seems to be a lot of arrogant pricks on here.

In my experience, there are very few disagreeable folks on here. I expect this thread will be missing some posts soon, but before they go, you did kind of dish it out and then couldn't take it when it came back. You made folks defensive and you sounded pretty arrogant. Go back and read the thread again. You may not have meant it to come across as harsh as it did. But it did. It's happened to me before too. I've been brewing since 1980. Not continuously, but off and on. I'm sure about 70% of the folks on here could out brew me, but it's not a competition. It's a friendly thing to brew. Nobody is here to prove anything. Just share experience and help people. It's all good.

 

[Jag75]

I love my Grainfather , which is considered BIAB . I took 2nd and 3rd overall in a homebrew comp........guess if I didn't use a glorified coffee urn I may have taken 1st.

The owner of my LHBS does BIAB and he brews great beer. So op my advice to you is research and figure out which one works for you .

 

[IslandLizard]

I know this thread isn't about you, your unfounded criticism and cynicism about BIAB, and unneeded name calling of people who have been homebrewing for many years, some well over a decade, and 100s of successful, excellent tasting batches under their belts on all kinds of systems, including BIAB.

ordering a 10 Gallon Unibrau system with 240v and 5500w element.

Forget BIAB period.

BIAB is hokey, a pain in the ass, more expensive because you have to buy more grain (less efficient)

Guess what...?

Looking a little closer, that Unibrau you're so keen about and ordering is.... a BIAB system!
Systematically no different than a Grainfather or any other modified "coffee urn" BIAB system. They're all glorified, semi-automated versions based on, and not all that different from the kettle and mesh bag 100,000s of homebrewers have been using and still use in their "homebuilt" BIAB systems.

You cannot sparge.

That Unibrau doesn't feature a sparge either, unless you pour over by hand.

Going by the rather sparse description and specs of the Unibrau, getting most insight from their 2 videos (linked below), users may encounter some real limitations, such as maximum brewing volume and gravity, without becoming innovative and resorting to work-arounds.




Some observations:
In those 2 video demos there a lot of high speed pumping and splashing going on. May look great on video, yeahh, we're brewing!!!
But none of that is to the advantage of brewing good beer. Brewing is typically not that eventful or spectacular to watch. I'm cringing, while LoDO aficionados would have a field day with that, like no other.

So modifications #1 and #2 are desperately waiting to be implemented, by the user, to prevent that.
The first (high speed mash recirculation) doesn't occur with straight up (uncirculated) BIAB mashing.
And when chilling, stick that return hose well under the wort surface! Why isn't there a whirlpool/return port?

My experience is that the BIAB beer is subpar compared to real brewing methods.

When you're so convinced BIAB isn't a real brewing method, how's the $1500 Unibrau 10G/240V gonna help you brew good beer? How would that be different?

Since you mentioned it, what exactly makes a "real brewing method?"
Please elaborate.

 

[bracconiere]

hey wait. i just remembered i have a pic of the same equipment i've been using since 2002 or 2003 forget which, but i started brewing with a 7.5 gallon turkey pot on the stove and a paint bag in a bucket with a drain hole. back in 1996.

fits nicley away in the closet. i use a 15 gallon HDPE bucket both for my sparge water and fermenter.

as you can see my IC and all other tubing fit nicely inside for storage. brew 10 gallon batches with it. it works, it works good!

for the OP that's about the easiest, simplest all-grain rig you can have....

 

[fendersrule]

IslandLizard, I don't think this gentleman can reason!

Some other tidbits of information, since I've used BIAB 50 times.

I do 60-90 minute mashes....I don't hard stop at 60, but I don't necessarily run the full gamut to 90. I basically relax and prepare other things during the mash.
I do very fine crushes. .027" to be exact.
I don't recirculate anything.
Single infusion mash.
I don't sparge, but I do a 1 minute squeeze at the very end.
Water treated tap water

Here's my efficiency numbers depending on the grist:

My IPA/Pale/Sour Grist: 73%
My Black IPA Grist: 75%
My Miller Lite Ale Grist: 86%
My Mac and Jacks Clone:: 77%
My Stone RIS Clone: 70%

Those numbers far from "suck". Those numbers are consistent every single time I brew (I've brewed each recipe at least twice)--I hit my so OG so accurately that it's scary.

I've gotten rave reviews on several of these beers from my club which has 5 certified judges. I've been asked to share recipes many times and typically get people flocking immediately at my serving table every month because I brew unique things.

My neighbor does group brews with me. He uses a 3V system, but after trying my beers and brewing with me during the BIAB process, he is now actively selling his system.

BIAB is only going to get more popular. Yep, those electric all in ones are BIAB systems!

My BIAB system is capable to brew up to 15 Gallons of 1.080 beer. That's probably more capacity than most home brewers.

I personally prefer to brew 5 gallons and brew more often to continue to experiment and refine.

Having to drink a double batch of your own stuff, even if it won medals, gets annoying after a month.

 

[bracconiere]

I don't think this gentleman can reason!

wait this HBT, "gentleman? i thought we used ************ here? lol and to all involved i say that with humor so

 

[Alex4mula]

You should look into an electric all in one system. They work like a BIAB system but you don't need a burner, you can brew indoors, and they just make life easier all around IMO. I have the Brewer's edge mash and boil and love it for it's simplicity, but the Anil foundry system seems to be more popular these days and has more bells and whistles for a similar price tag. Personally I didn't want all the extra complexity, which is why I got the M&B, but any of the all in one systems are worth every penny.

Another vote for these electric units. Usually the Mash & Boil gets a big discount on black Friday so you have great timing now. I got the basic one and added a cheap Amazon pump upgrade. Have done 63 brews. Normally get 90s mash efficiency. Easy to clean and simple to use. Especially indoors in my basement. And total BS to the guy that says it doesn't boil strong enough Ja!

 

[porterguy]

You get what you pay for... I have learned the buy once, cry once theory...Get what you need and not what you can get by with only finding you have to upgrade in 6 months to a year...Forget BIAB period. A lot of BIAB users will scoff about what I am going to say, but, remember miserly loves company. BIAB is hokey, a pain in the ass, more expensive because you have to buy more grain (less efficient), I've seen bags tear open and then there is that mess. Then you have to have a pulley system of some sort and the beer is still then only so-so. You cannot sparge. I also tried two different Grainfathers and those won't boil wort worth a crap and they are nothing more than a modified coffee maker with no prospects of upgrades. I am selling my two Grainfathers and ordering a 10 Gallon Unibrau system with 240v and 5500w element. Life is good when things are fun, easy, and works like it should with no worries.

Wow, a member of the forum for five whole months and ready to tell hundreds or thousands of BIAB'ers that they make "so-so" beer. I'm sure you have tried every BIAB'ers beers around the world to have formed such an opinion. Perhaps you should find out how many of those "so-so" beer makers won awards for their beers before blasting them. Poor you, having to drink the beer someone spent time making and offered to you. How kind of you to let them know your almighty opinion about their hobby. AND you're obviously a master judge of technology, too. After selecting not one, but two different Grainfathers, you now have now determined that the Unibrau is the ultimate. "Buy once, cry once"? So far you're up to "buy three times, cry twice". How long before you rush out to buy the next shiny new thing?

This is a HOBBY! Get off your high horse. And yes, I'm one of "those" BIAB'ers. I like my beer, my spouse likes my beer, and others who I share it with like it. Don't panic, I promise I will NEVER offer you one. I wouldn't want you to stoop so low. I don't really give a crap about someone who makes such gross over-generalizations.

 

[doug293cz]

Thread went off the rails after some personal attacks. Posts have been deleted.

Reminder: Talk about the topic, not the other posters. No more discussion about why things went off the rails will be allowed here.

doug293cz
HBT Moderator

 

[deuc224]

I have a question for us BIAB people, do you guys really care about efficiency? I just care about hitting my numbers so it comes out as close to what i planned as possible, but even at that stage the yeast has a mind of its own and have taken a lot of wort past its planned SG.

 

[fendersrule]

I have a question for us BIAB people, do you guys really care about efficiency? I just care about hitting my numbers so it comes out as close to what i planned as possible, but even at that stage the yeast has a mind of its own and have taken a lot of wort past its planned SG.

You must mean FG. Yeast doesn't have anything to do with SG/OG.

The rule of thumb is if you're over 70%, you're golden to stop caring. Yep, consistency is more important!

The difference between 70% and 80% is ~1.5 lbs of grain, or about $2.50.

 

[VikeMan]

You must mean FG. Yeast doesn't have anything to do with SG/OG.

FWIW...

OG: Original Gravity
FG: Final Gravity
SG: Specific Gravity, which can mean OG, FG, or any gravity reading.

 

[doug293cz]

I have a question for us BIAB people, do you guys really care about efficiency? I just care about hitting my numbers so it comes out as close to what i planned as possible, but even at that stage the yeast has a mind of its own and have taken a lot of wort past its planned SG.

Efficiency really only needs to be worried about if it is very low, or varies too much batch to batch. If you are having efficiency issues, then it is helpful to know the difference between conversion, lauter, and transfer efficiency, and what process parameters affect each of those contributors to overall efficiency. Mash efficiency = conversion efficiency * lauter efficiency, and brewhouse efficiency = mash efficiency * transfer efficiency = conversion efficiency * lauter efficiency * transfer efficiency.

Brew on

 

[fendersrule]

Yep--and be mindful that it's normal for efficiency to vary between recipe to recipe.....but getting different efficiency from the same recipe is a red flag!

No batch should be below 70% efficiency.

It's normal for any change in your equipment and process that you'll need to recalibrate/measure your setup.

 

[fendersrule]

Sparging is not necessary with any system. It just captures the extra sugars that would otherwise be discarded. The main difference is that BIAB, with the grain milled more finely than a conventional mash tun can deal with, has such a high mash efficiency that one can capture a larger amount of the sugars. If you like the simplicity of that, don't sparge, but be aware that there is a lot of sugars still in the grain bed even if you squeeze the bag hard. A pour over sparge is pretty easy with the bag hanging over the pot to drain and costs nearly nothing. Cool water works very well for this and cools the grain some too, making disposal easier.

I think you're saying what I'm saying (at least for the first bit). Because the grain is milled so fine, you are getting more sugars period vs a conventional grind. That's why I say sparging is less necessary with BIAB. So much that you're betters served focusing on other things. I don't sparge and my efficiency is 73% for the majority of my grist bills (2 row + wheat with some carapils). I don't think you can get 73% from a 3V system without sparging.

Are there more sugars there? Absolutely. But sparging (assuming a cold water pour-over sparge) does increase the complexity of the brew day. Two words! Water calculations. You are also decreasing the volume during the mash. This may take away some efficiency (but to be compensated by a sparge). You're likely to add length to your brew day as well. All for what, 5% more efficiency?

Honestly, I do not like the idea of having to treat water twice. Go back to your previous post...it's just adding more complexity.

I would not be telling a new BIABer to sparge. Let that be an experiment to do if they are bored later on. The point of BIAB is simplicity. I'll say that 100 times. You heat the water, put in a bag, mix in grain, mash, then lift it out and boil! And you should get well over 70% just by doing that!

I made a maize beer once and got 86% with my setup. No sparge.

 

[passedpawn]

Wait... how did this turn into a BIAB thread? I was going to respond to OP, but I’m afraid at this point my comments would be off topic (I don’t biab).

 

[doug293cz]

Wait... how did this turn into a BIAB thread? I was going to respond to OP, but I’m afraid at this point my comments would be off topic (I don’t biab).

Easy, OP asked about what was needed to try all-grain, given that he was already set up for extract. Many answered that the easiest (least new equipment required) way to try all-grain is BIAB.

Brew on