all grain brews keep coming out with the same bitter taste...

[hotspurdotus]

Lovin the conversation.
To the OP, how did that ph meter work out? I have some test strips that I used for a small sample mash and they read about 5 so I added a sprinkle of baking soda and it rose to about 5.5. Sounds like most people never have to increase their ph, so ??? I probably need a meter and to send a water sample in. I got a report from the state but they have samples from 5 different water treatment plants in town and not sure yet which one is mine.

Do people experience differences in their water at different times of the year?

Mineral levels in city water can vary quite a bit throughout the year. Many municipalities will pull from multiple sources with different profiles , such as a river and a reservoir.

This could be part of my problem. I never have treated for chlorine and my latest city report has Chlorine levels ranging from .58-1.98 ppm. However in my first 3 AG batches I did not have this taste.

Still scratching my head but I feel like I have a direction to go in.

There are lots of reasons why may not have noticed chlorine in your earlier batches. The Chlorine level might have been much lower (that was a big range you quoted), or the beer style could have masked the taste.

I tackled my water issues with an RO system, but I know that's not possible for every brewer. The important thing is that now you're thinking about your water and how it affects your beer. I'm sure you're be brewing better batches very soon!



Sent from my EVO using Home Brew mobile app

 

[G2G]

Final Update for this Post... Everyone was right, it's my water and my mash PH was too high. By using the citric acid to lower the mash PH the beer came out great. I did a cream ale, mostly because it's a recipe I tried before that came out with the terrible bitter taste so I wanted to test it. Very happy to report no bitter taste in this one. It was definitely my water, which was the consensus of the responses to my OP. It makes perfect sense after the fact of course. I think I've said it a couple times but I wish I had posted way sooner. Pre-post - frustration and bitter beer. Post-post - It looks like a meth lab with all the chemicals and meters and finally!... much better beer.

I also got my Wards lab report back (Info posted below) and after reading Yooper's "A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer" post that is linked in this post I ordered some Calcium Chloride and Gypsum and am going to use RO water on my next batch to see how it comes out. I'm trying to familiarize myself with the Bru'n Water spreadsheet as well.

A sincere Thank you to everyone who replied to this post and messaged and helped me out. New year, new knowledge, new (non-bitter) beers! Cheers!

*Sidenote - Not that there's not a ton of veteran brewers way more experienced than me on here that are very willing to help out and answer questions, as proven by this post, but if anybody newer comes across this and has any questions I'd be happy to answer anything I can based on my experience. For example, when I started I had no idea even what the abbreviations meant (LHBS, SG, LME, etc.) and I was probably too embarrassed to ask anybody. Just sayin'.

Here is what Ward lab had to say about my city's water if anybody cares (or you live in St. Pete and want to save $30).

St. Petersburg, FL 33713:
pH 8.3
Total Dissolved Solids 262
Electrical Conductivity 0.44
Cations/Anions 4.3/4.5

in ppm:
Sodium 24
Potassium <1
Calcium 55
Magnesium 5
Total Hardness (CaCO3) 158
Nitrate (NO3-N) 0.2
Sulfate (SO4-S) 16
Chloride 31
Carbonate 6
Bicarbonate 143
Total Alkalinity 127
Total Phosphorus 0.02
Total Iron <0.01


Thanks!

 

[stewart194]

Glad you figured this out. One thing to consider also, is that an RO water system can't filter out Chloromines. It can take care of the Chlorine, but not Chloromines. Chloromines are a combination of Ammonia and Chlorine. Our entire state has started using Chloromines because our water is so polluted that Chlorine alone can't kill everything anymore.

I had similar issues when I first started brewing and finally figured this out. Every beer had an off flavor to it, no matter what I tried. I was using RO water and still do, but I learned that it takes Campden tablets to get rid of that nasty stuff.

 

[hotspurdotus]

Glad you figured this out. One thing to consider also, is that an RO water system can't filter out Chloromines. It can take care of the Chlorine, but not Chloromines. Chloromines are a combination of Ammonia and Chlorine. Our entire state has started using Chloromines because our water is so polluted that Chlorine alone can't kill everything anymore.

I had similar issues when I first started brewing and finally figured this out. Every beer had an off flavor to it, no matter what I tried. I was using RO water and still do, but I learned that it takes Campden tablets to get rid of that nasty stuff.

The RO process itself won't remove chloramines. However, many RO systems include an activated carbon pre-filter that will remove chloramines. If you buy an RO system, look for one of the 4 stage systems that includes a carbon filter.

 

[stewart194]

The RO process itself won't remove chloramines. However, many RO systems include an activated carbon pre-filter that will remove chloramines. If you buy an RO system, look for one of the 4 stage systems that includes a carbon filter.

My RO system came with the house when we bought it. According to the guy who services it, it is one of the nicer / more expensive units. But it doesn't have the filter that removes chloramines. If I ever have to replace it, I will make sure I get one that does! Thanks for the info.

Also, a friend of mine brews with Culligan water that he "borrows" from work. This water doesn't have Chloromines. He's an extract brewer, and even if he uses all Culligan water...but then tops off his brew with just a gallon or less of regular tap water...it ruins the entire batch.

 

[fearwig]

Campden won't do everything for your water like some people think, but it does neutralize chloramines just fine (so I hear--I don't need to use it).

 

[afr0byte]

Campden won't do everything for your water like some people think, but it does neutralize chloramines just fine (so I hear--I don't need to use it).

Since when have people been saying that campden will do everything for your water? Do some people think they're used for things other than disinfection (of wine must, for example) or chlorine/chloroamine removal?

 

[fearwig]

Since when have people been saying that campden will do everything for your water? Do some people think they're used for things other than disinfection (of wine must, for example) or chlorine/chloroamine removal?

Like every third "water problems" thread I see someone say something like "I added campden but my wort still tastes like tea bags". I'm not saying it's a common misconception among experienced brewers or something. Thought my point was pretty clear.

THE POINT *AHEM* is if you have an RO system without a carbon filter campden should solve your problem.

 

[stewart194]

Campden won't do everything for your water like some people think, but it does neutralize chloramines just fine (so I hear--I don't need to use it).

That is all that I use it for, and I believe that is the only thing it does.

 

[pdietert]

Besides campden, ascorbic acid (vitamin C) will neutralize chloramines. If you are already adding it to your water, there is no need for campden. I have an RO system and add 1/2 of a chewable vit. c tablet per 10 gal. of water. I have never detected the taste of the Vitamin C tablet nor the chloramines.

 

[The_Glue]

OP: I think I have been having the same issue since I started brewing a year ago. Is it an aspirin like bitterness at the back of your tongue? Like you, I have spent many hours and lots of money trying to get rid of that off flavor. I have partial mashed, moved to all grain, used tap water, spring water, distilled water, brewed different ale types, upgraded equipment, star sanned the crap out of everything; all to have the same results. In my last batch, I made a successful yeast starter with a stir plate for the first time. I also aerated with a paint mixer attached to a drill (not the first time.) I'm hoping that this solves the issue. My bottles are conditioning now and I''ll be testing them in two weeks. I subscribed to the thread and I'll let you know my results. Let me know if it is the same off flavor as described above.

I think i have the same problem, i am also in the process of changing equipment, sanitizer etc. but i have not brewed with the new stuff yet.

Did your new beers turned out fine? What about the OP?

 

[JoseLima]

Astringency is the problem. Ways to prevent astringency one big mistake that we are all guilty of is over crushing grain which allows the tannins of the grain husk to get in beer. Another cause is sparging with water with a ph level over 6.0 and sparging with water hotter than 170 degrees. Follow that rule and astringency will dissappear. High bitterness can also be perceived as astringency which is not pleasant. Using large amount of hops with high AA can cause it to.

joselima

 

[fearwig]

Some pretty solid sources have said crush isn't a big factor. I think that's probably true, though it stands to reason that a hull in one piece will give up less tanin than a hull in fifty pieces. Seems like pH makes a bigger difference.

 

[JoseLima]

Term is 'crushing grain' not 'pulverizing grain'.

BJCP-Jose

joselima

 

[The_Glue]

Astringency is the problem. Ways to prevent astringency one big mistake that we are all guilty of is over crushing grain which allows the tannins of the grain husk to get in beer. Another cause is sparging with water with a ph level over 6.0 and sparging with water hotter than 170 degrees. Follow that rule and astringency will dissappear. High bitterness can also be perceived as astringency which is not pleasant. Using large amount of hops with high AA can cause it to.

joselima

I get this astringent taste with no-sparge BIAB 40 IBU APAs with almost intact looking grain husks. I think in my case it is more like a water or sanitization issue. What is interesting that my first 3 brews did not had this off taste and the main difference between my first 3 (no off taste) and my last 5 (off taste) batches is that the bad ones were dry hopped.
The bad ones had better fermentation control, more yeast pitched, tighter mash temperatures, added acid malt, probably more ideal PH ranges. (i mean i started precipating the water, adding CaCl, using acid malt)
I used the same equipment on them.

I just drank my second brew ever, i made it 5 months ago and it tasted almost commercial perfect while i remember i hated its peachy esters and other off tastes a few months ago. It was made with normal tapwater. I am pretty sure its water even contained some chlorine or chloramine and it is still good.

The off taste did not got any better after a few months in the bad ones.

edit: the bad ones were dryhopped in the primary for a week with an amount of 1/2oz per gallon with different kind of hops

 

[PRE66_6TART]

Term is 'crushing grain' not 'pulverizing grain'.

BJCP-Jose

joselima

Not trying to be argumentative here, but I am wondering something. Everyone used to think that squeezing the grain bag extracted tannins, until BIAB became popular and disproved it. This seems like the same situation. BIAB brewers routinely grind their grain practically into flour, and from what I hear it works fine as long as the ph is controlled. Is this not the case?

 

[Foosier]

ou are correct. BIAB brewers will "crush" the grains to dust if they want to because our voile bags are such fine filters that the flour will not, in most instances, make it through. Now I am not advocating going all the way to flour, but you can. On my last brew the LHBS crush was not good and since I did not have a mill, I ran my grain through a food processer to improve the crush. No astringency at all.

The key to extracting tanins is Temp and PH. You could extract tanins from uncrushed grains if you used water higher than ph 6.0 and temp greater than 170. Crushing really has nothing to do with it.

For BIAB brewers and really all brewers you have to know your water to know whether your PH can create an issue for you. Some tap water will have too many minerals which nuetralizes the ability of your grist to lower the PH to acceptable ranges. When this occurs you could be mashing out for example at 170 with water around a ph of 6.0. Now you can get tanins.

If you know your water you can determine if this is an issue for you or not. Check out the Brew science stickies for more info. They will help you learn your water and what you may need to do.

 

[rwgaro]

Not to raise a dead thread but after struggling with a similar issue and digging around a lot, I stumbled on this thread - the post within that described the bitter taste as aspirin-like was a eureka moment for me... Finally know what to do!!!