Alferman Imperial Berliner Weisse

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Morkin

Morkin

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Brewed this up yesterday. First bacteria inoculation, first no sparge, first no boil, first no chill. What an easy brew day.

Went for a more traditional gravity so I cut the grains and hops down a bit.

4.5# pale us 2-row
3.5# wheat malt
0.75 tettnanger

Protein rest at 118f for 20min. Sacc rest at 148-150f for 60min. Mash out at 165f with remainder of water. This was a very thin mash at that point. Drained without vorloufing into kettle and heated to 185f to pasturize, killed heat, covered and let free fall to 120f (about 4hrs).

Pitched homemade lacto starter (see above post) and within 12hrs this carboy is going nuts! Nice krausen, active airlock, and swirling wort. I am keeping it at temps, 100-110f, in a small sealed bathroom with a small space heater fan pointed at it about 12" away. It's actually holding temps quite well this way, since I don't have a way to heat my term chamber as of yet. Gonna give of the full 48hrs before pitching US-05.

Couple questions:
1. Should I add oxygen at Sacc pitch?
2. Will the time above 140f in the kettle cause DMS?
3. How long in primary after the US-05 is pitched until this might be ready to keg?
To answer your questions:

1) Not sure, I never do oxygen additions other than shaking the carboy.
2) I have never noticed any DMS,
3) That depends on your taste buds and what you think the beer should taste like. I have kegged it after about 4 weeks before, but I think the best choice is to wait about 2-3 months. The reason for this is that I believe the lacto keeps working on sugars that the yeast cannot eat, and so keeps improving the taste of the beer and cleaning up the beer long after the Sac gives out.

My preferred way to package this beer is in Champagne or Belgian bottles for 2 reasons. First, the added wire and cork alongside the thicker bottles assures that I will not get any bottle bombs. Secondly, I can then store these bottles for months to years and actually measure how much it has improved over time. I just found a Gose (similar recipe, different style) of mine from a year and half ago and it is much better than when I first had it.

Try it out and see what works best for you. Post some pictures and updated when you can!
 

OCBrewin

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Thanks for the reply. I can say that I am very happy how this is turning out. I am at almost exactly 4 weeks from sacc pitch now and it is very good. I do think that I will let this bulk age for another few weeks before bottling. It is slightly tart, not very sour, and has a nice unfiltered light wheat character to it.

I have decided against kegging this, as I really don't want to deal with having dedicated lines and kegs to sours at this point. My only problem is that since I hardly ever bottle anymore I'm reluctant to invest in more bottling equipment. All I am set up to do at the moment is regular bottles with my 'red baron' style caper. Is there anyway to bottle in thicker style bottles without buying a corker or a new caper?
 
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Thanks for the reply. I can say that I am very happy how this is turning out. I am at almost exactly 4 weeks from sacc pitch now and it is very good. I do think that I will let this bulk age for another few weeks before bottling. It is slightly tart, not very sour, and has a nice unfiltered light wheat character to it.

I have decided against kegging this, as I really don't want to deal with having dedicated lines and kegs to sours at this point. My only problem is that since I hardly ever bottle anymore I'm reluctant to invest in more bottling equipment. All I am set up to do at the moment is regular bottles with my 'red baron' style caper. Is there anyway to bottle in thicker style bottles without buying a corker or a new caper?
I have kegged this beer twice, and I have never had dedicated lines. The reason being is that I compleatly disassemble my system and kegs after each use and sanitize it.

That being said, if you do bottle, you can bottle it normally with the regular bottles, but be sure to carb it at a much lower rate than the 3-3.5 that the style usually uses. Go for a normal 2.5-3 and you'll be fine.
 

midfielder5

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When I have a sour beer in kegerator, I just use a sour-dedicated picnic tap. In other words, I don't run the sour beer through my kegerator lines. I have to open the door to get the beer but otherwise no big deal.
 

OCBrewin

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When I have a sour beer in kegerator, I just use a sour-dedicated picnic tap. In other words, I don't run the sour beer through my kegerator lines. I have to open the door to get the beer but otherwise no big deal.
I like your style. That might be what I end up doing. I think I'll bottle this one for now since I'm shipping some anyways
 

america

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If I wanted to reuse this yeast on another batch of this same recipe, would i have to boil the beer at all? Or heat up the carboy (using a Fermwrap) for the first few days like I did the first time around?
 

america

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what is the typical "grain to glass" time on this?

( if kegging that is )
Mine was ready around the two month mark. But I bottled and went on a 21 day vacation and didn't try it till I got back... But it was pretty much just as good now as it was back then (bottled in 7/23/12).
 

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2 Questions that I didn't see answered but i may have missed. I am really excited to brew this beer. What kind of grain do I need to use for the starter and what method is everyone using to separate the liquid from the grain in the starter ? A grain bag ?
 

AUEnder

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Wingfan13 said:
2 Questions that I didn't see answered but i may have missed. I am really excited to brew this beer. What kind of grain do I need to use for the starter and what method is everyone using to separate the liquid from the grain in the starter ? A grain bag ?
I just added four ounces of each grain to my order and used a cup of that for the starter. Just used a kitchen sieve to filter the liquid from the grain.
 

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Brewed this up today with no boil and a homemade starter. I dumped the liquid from the starter in and have two heating pads on the carboy. It's currently at 120° and the airlock is completely still. It's been four hours and I don't know if I did the homemade starter correctly. I just heated a pint of water to 130 and put it in a mason jar with a cup of 2 row. I dumped as much of the liquid in through a strainer as I could but noticed that their was the cake at the bottom that did not get in. It smelled like sour apples and the temp was at 90 for the most part. I will post back with results. This was my first sour brew.
 

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Still no airlock activity. I decided to dump in some WLP677 Lacto about six hours ago and still nothing. The temperature is currently at 110. Hoping for something tomorrow. Did I do something wrong?
 

midfielder5

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aknox said:
Still no airlock activity....
Did I do something wrong?
Lack of airlock activity does not mean it isn't working. Taste it (is it sour?) when you do a hydrometer reading.
 

3x3is9

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Just came home from work and what a great sight. Patience...Something I still need to work on.

Yeah! That's looking about right.

Patience.. ya, you and me both.

After bottling mine and feeling a little disappointed I stuck mine away for about 4 months. Cracked a bottle last night. Wow! Delicious. So, even after everything seems finished.. patience patience patience!
 
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Morkin

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Yeah! That's looking about right.

Patience.. ya, you and me both.

After bottling mine and feeling a little disappointed I stuck mine away for about 4 months. Cracked a bottle last night. Wow! Delicious. So, even after everything seems finished.. patience patience patience!
100% correct. Just because you don't see your airlock going crazy, doesn't mean it isn't working. I use the 48 hour rule for my sourness only after I have tasted it. If it's sour enough for you, pitch the yeast. Hydrometers and your tongue are the best tools for this beer.
 

aknox

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Just took a sample. 1.010 and the sourness was there, but only at the end. I just shut the heating pads off and I'm going to let it get down to room temperature and hopefully tonight pitch my German Ale yeast.
 

musikguru6

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Took about 60-72 hours, but finally showing some activity! Will let this go for another 24, then will pitch.

534954_10100163836731809_88037879_n.jpg
 

t-ross

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Here are some pictures of mine. Do these look right? Used a homemade lactic starter as described in the original post.

Mine was extract, OG 1.054. "mash hopped" with steeping grains (flaked week and two row), brought just to a boil then cooled. I used 0.5 oz of columbus for my 2.5 gallon batch.

The strange thing is that it looks like krausen @33 hours but I haven't added yeast yet.
http://s586.photobucket.com/user/leniotr/library/Berliner%20Weisse?page=1

Update: Just sampled @45 hours. Didn't get much sour. Actually smells and tastes like yeast. Should lactic smell like that? I guess I'll let it keep going and check it again tommorow night.
 

aknox

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Made this recipe again two weeks ago with East Coast Yeast Bug Farm. My first batch is bottled and I'll crack one open and post a picture soon.

For my next batch, I'm thinking of pitching some lacto followed by Pacman yeast.
 

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Can someone walk me through the process of culturing some lactobacillus? I will mill some grain and put it in a jar of warm water and let it sit for a while. My question is, how long do I let it sit and do I decant the liquid off of the grain to pitch into the wort?
 

Wingfan13

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Just brewed this up and I cannot wait. Very little liquid came out of my lactic starter so I gave the bag I was straining with a little squeeze. I hope that isnt a big deal.

I have it sitting in the garage where it should be in the 90's but I have some questions.

1. When I am ready to pitch the yeast should I bring the wort inside for it to cool down a little ?

2. After 48 hours is that the time I taste it to see if it is sour enough ? then I wait longer for it to get more sour ?

Thanks
 

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So the starter is literally water and crushed grains right? Just clarifying because other starters are usually water + DME + yeast.

All grains have lacto on them, but any in particular you recommend for adding to the starter?
 

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What a solid thread. I just read all ten pages (slow night at work) and will be making the lacto starter tomorrow. I'm assuming 3 days would be to soon from lacro starter to pitch? If so i'll just wait the week and brew next weekend.

I absolutely love sours and have a feeling once i take the challenge and brew one I'm gonna be drinking this year round.

Mike
 

Kob

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I brewed this yesterday. Made a slight variation since I mixed up the wheat and the 2-row and ended swapping the weights for these. Eh I'm ok with it.

For you guys asking about a Lacto starter, here's what I did. Bought a pound of German wheat and boiled about a quart or two of water. Enough to sterilize a few mason jars. took out the jars, filled half way with grain and most of the way to the top with the hot water. ~140 per my thermometer. covered with foil and set in the kitchen window sill for about 48 hours. Seemed like once it got going it was an exponential rate of growth. Formed a thin white film and smelled like "sour".

After I brewed I cooled to to about 120 and racked into primary. Wrapped with a heating pad and a seedling starter pad on each side then wrapped in a sleeping bag.

Went out today and found a nice little pellicle. I'll take a pic in a few here and post it up. It's been about 16 hours and I do have some airlock activity.
 

emily47

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Quick question about the lacto starter: I noticed only Kob mentioned sterilizing the jars before adding the grain/hot water. Are the jars meant to be sterilized or just clean and as-is?

Also, crushed grain or whole grain for the starter?

Thanks!!
 

Kob

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I used whole grain and sterilized cause I didn't want to have any off bugs.

Now its been about 48 hours and my pellicle is incredibly minimal present. Its been sitting in the garage with a heating blanket or two wrapped in a sleeping bag. Its around 100* now. Should i pitch the yeast once i cool it tomorrow or allow the pellicle to form? I guess i should taste it...
 

Kob

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Hey guys i have a question regarding this recipe and style in general. I followed the recipe and had an OG of 1.056. Spent three days under a lacto pellicle, with a gravity reading of 1.036. After 8 weeks i now have an FG of 1.006.

Am i correct measuring the abv with the 1.036 and the fg? I have read a few conflicting bits of info about the lacto fermenting and producing alcohol.

Aside from this question the brew went great. I'll definitely be brewing more sour ales and pit a gallon on a few palisade peaches. Mmmmm
 

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I finally got around to doing this. Here's what I did and what I noticed so far.

I made the lacto starter with probably about a cup worth of grain and maybe two cups of water. I did not mill my grain. Put in my normal starter flask with 120 degree water and submerged in a hot water bath that was as hot as I could make it with a standard aquarium heater (high 90's I think). Let that ride out for a week and strained and split it between two 6 gallon carboys.

For the mash, I did pils malt instead of US 2-row. As a result, I did not do a boil (mainly for time, and also because getting to the boil for a short period would promote a lot of DMS). Here's my grain bill:

2.25 lb rye malt (had on hand - LOVE rye)
15 lb pils
5 lb red wheat
a large amount of rice hulls

I took off about a gallon of wort and boiled that on the stovetop with an ounce of sterling hops for 45 mins. That seems to be (anecdotally) the minimum boil time for DMS evacuation.

I sparged normally and got the wort down to about 140 in the kettle. Moved to a hot water bath (again, with an aquarium heater turned all the way up) and added the liquid from my lacto starter. I did NOT aerate, as it seems lacto favors anaerobic conditions.

The next day, the blowoff bucket was going INSANE. One of the most vigorous fermentations I've seen. I never quite got a pellicle, but I did get a huge krausen. I added rehydrated US-05 after two days and we'll see where we land.
 

america

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whats everyones FG coming in at?
my first batch ended up around 1.003 but that was fermented almost all the way out with lacto before adding any brewers yeast. the second batch i made was sitting around 1.010 about a month ago when i added some Casecade brewery Sang Noir dregs to the carboy. hoping that will get it down to pretty close to 1.000 in the next month or so. whats your sitting at? how long did you ferment with lacto before pitching anything else?

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forcabrew

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OG was right on. Did the 48hr lacto then I hit it with sac haven't taken a reading yet. Ill take one once sac is done doing its thing.


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millhouse9

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I'm wondering if crushing the grains is a vital part of the process. I've read that some people do not crush the grains...anyone have any insight? Sorry if this has already been mentioned...I did not read all 16 pages of this thread...made it through about 7.
 

bretts545

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I pitched dregs and Brett trois after the sacch to mine so I'm thinking I need to let it go a few months so the Brett can do its thing.
 
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Wow. Its been a while since I've posted on Homebrewtalk. Its amazing to me that since posting this back in 2009, its still a popular recipe and I still get requests for answers. I actually will be brewing this recipe this week, so if anyone had any questions, please post here and I will answer them.
 

Winterpeg

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this may be my next brew, and if it works out may try a sour saison. is the lactic starter 2-row usually? I'm semi concerned about doing a no boil as I've never done it before, I've seen a few people say they raised the temp to 185? to pasturise the wort but not sure if this is a waste, or would actually kill off any other bacteria etc that may contaminate it. seems like no on elase had this issue so I may skip that step. would be a shame to let it ferment 3 months just to dump it due to off flavours.
 

dim29

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I brewed this 7 days ago. I made the homemade starter. I pitched to the wort and it formed a pellicle the next day and bubbled like crazy. After 48 hours i pitched a rehydrated us05.The lacto ate everything within 2 days and i reached my final gravity. I took a sample and it had a nice clean tart lemony flavour. After 2 days the pelicle subsided but after i pitched us05 it appeared again. Is this a good sign?
 
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