Aging beer: Facts, myths, and discussion

[Saccharomyces]

Do I really need a gallon of yeast? I have just been using just the WYeast activator packs of liquid yeast, and only experienced attenuation problems on my beers higher than 1.060. I have looked at the yeast starter kits that include either a 1 or 2 liter flask with a small package of DME. Is the 1 liter flask even worth considering? I'm curious about how much of a yeast starter is "enough"...

I have both a 1L and 2L flask and use 1oz DME for each 250ml. I choose which one to use based on what Jamil's pitching calculator recommends. To make a 3L starter I would create a 1L starter in the 2L flask, refrigerate, decant, and add 2L of fresh wort.

 

[Anbrew]

Very nice post! I ESPECIALLY agree about pitching a lot of yeast. I think it's the number one "new to brewing" mistake (I know it was for me). I would have a very hard time getting beers to fully attenuate. My LHBS owner at the time told me "not to worry about" starters. Ever since I've made them, my beers have been tasting much better and fully attenuating. The possible off-flavors from overpitching are no big deal compared to the nasty ones from under pitching.

I also like to make BIG beers and you can even turn some of them around pretty fast. I made a OG 1.110 strong scotch ale (WITH peak smoked malt, to boot) and it was very drinkable after only 5 weeks. After conditioning for months it tasted a LITTLE bit smoother, but nothing drastic. I made a split batch of 1.085 dopplebock, lagered one for two months and one for SEVEN months, they tasted about the same.

The only beers that (for me) have gotten significantly better with age are higher gravity Belgian ales.

 

[Bigsnake]

Seems I can get most beers to bottle in 21 to 28 days, but then I have to wait for the bottles to carb. Some seem to take longer though like this Belgian ale has been in primary two weeks and I'm about to transfer. It's clearing up some but there's still a LOT of suspended yeast in there.

 

[strohs]

Proof (you'll have to take me at my word for now): I've got a STOUT on tap that was brewed exactly two weeks ago. It's clear, clean, and tasty. Friends came over yesterday and claimed that it's one of the best stouts they've ever had. My buddy's wife said, "I usually dislike dark beer like this, but yours is fantastic!"

Where can I find this stout recipe?

 

[Yuri_Rage]

It's in my recipe dropdown (under my username).

 

[neuron555]

I agree with most of what has been said, and certainly since I have been using starters, my batches have been finishing better. I have had good, quick turnaround with stouts and hefes, but I would like to share an experience I had with Ed Wort's Pale Ale. I made a batch for my son's engagement party, with 5 weeks from brewing to party (I bottle). I got rave reviews from everyone, including some other homebrewers. Most of the batch was polished off, but I had save out a few for myself, and when I tried it a month or two later, it had matured to a really excellent batch.

It certainly was good in a short time, but now i wish I had saved more for me. Time to brew again.

 

[nosmatt]

excellent thread.


BTTT for the guys too lazy to goto page 2 or 3....



and, can someone post a link to ed's pale recipe if handy.

 

[discgolfin]

Great Thread!!!!

I will have to put my money on big yeast starter and temp control..

Most of my beers are 1.045 to 1.055, but they are complex. I understand complex brain bills will require more aging but I believe the yeast has a bigger impact. The water was very interesting, I gues I am lucky in Chicago..we possibly have the best water in the world for drinking(not for brewing)..but it tuwns out to be great for brewing as well. As for yeast I will pitch 1 to 2 packets of S-05 for any clena ale and this stuff rocks out a nice clean fermentation and is done in 3 days..1 week to 10 days more than crash cool and keg. I bring my wort down to 75-70 for all beers and pitch big and keep at ambient room temp of 65.

I think yeast strain should be discussed because some will clean up much better than others and some need very little cleaning at all(S-05). This will speed up aging a bunch.

J

 

[MN_Jay]

I wonder what in the world Budweiser does to their beer that peaks it's taste at 28 days, then starts to slide downhill after that. You guys remember the advertising pitch they have where they send out day old beer to bars so you can taste the freshness?

 

[TexLaw]

I wonder what in the world Budweiser does to their beer that peaks it's taste at 28 days, then starts to slide downhill after that. You guys remember the advertising pitch they have where they send out day old beer to bars so you can taste the freshness?

They brew a beer that has so few IBUs that it barely breaks the human taste threshold, and they filter out all the yeast.

Also, we're talking about Budweiser, here. "Peaking" is a relative term.


TL

 

[McKBrew]

I'll definately need to read through this thread some more and look at ways to improve my skills. I'm drinking a commercial beer from Widmer right now that is 7.2% ABV. If I'm reading the date on the bottle correctly it was either bottled or brewed on 10-28. I'm guessing bottled. Even so, it probably wasn't brewed that long before that, and it is an excellent well balanced beer. If the big boys can turn out good, high ABV that fast then we should be able to as well.

 

[Saccharomyces]

Seems I can get most beers to bottle in 21 to 28 days, but then I have to wait for the bottles to carb. Some seem to take longer though like this Belgian ale has been in primary two weeks and I'm about to transfer. It's clearing up some but there's still a LOT of suspended yeast in there.

My Belgian pale ales take forever to clear in the keg. You can use gelatin if you want to speed up the flocculation. I'll do this next time I use one of the Belgian strains, my DeKoninck clone is still cloudy (brewed 10/11) but it tastes wonderful now.

 

[Saccharomyces]

I agree with most of what has been said, ... but I had save out a few for myself, and when I tried it a month or two later, it had matured to a really excellent batch.

I'm with you on this, I don't like grassy hops in a pale ale, and young hoppy beers can be a bit grassy. After about 6 weeks the hops mellow out making for a more balanced beer. An IPA on the other hand you could put a tap on the fermenter and I'd be happy.

 

[madewithchicken]

My favorite part is,

Sample. The beer is ready when it tastes good. If it's bready, yeasty, cloudy, chunky, twangy, too bitter, unrefined, etc, it's not ready. If it's clear and tastes good, keg it.

It is such a simple concept and even I overlook it when people ask me how long to wait.

I am switching to a different style. It is the "keep everything full" method. I keep 4 of my kegs full (I actually have 8 kegs but I keep 4 full.) And I keep 3 of my carboys full. When I finish a keg it is time for something to go in it.

If a beer has been in a carboy too long (2-3+ months) I bottle it. If everything is full and I still want to brew something new I will bottle something.

Well that is the plan anyways. I had it working for a week or 2. But the real world got in the way. Currently I only have 3 kegs and 2 carboys going.

It is hard for me to drink that much beer. At most I drink about 2.5 gallons a week. Which means I brew about every other week. And if I miss a week or 2 I stand no chance of running out of beer.

I do rack to a secondary presently. But I think I will stop that. I need to run a test on that.

 

[brewmonger]

Why the rush? What's wrong with letting beer age?

I save at least a few bottles of every brew I make to age out for an extended period (at least 9 months) and I still have 1 bottle left of my very first brew, a mead from over 2 years ago.

I guess if your goal is quantity over quality, then yeah, you probably want a fast turnaround. But the best beers (and wines) in the world require aging in order to come into their own.

When people ask me why I am so picky about what I drink, and why I drink such expensive beers, I tell them it is because I prefer to drink less often and drink something that is worth drinking.

I think your perspective about this issue really says more about your personal habits than it does about your abilities as a brewer. I could brew a beer ready to drink in 2 weeks if I really wanted to, but I don't want to.

Right now I am starting to think about experimenting with oaking beer and with lambic/wild-type fermentations, plus I already have some experience with gruit-type (unhopped herbal) ales. I think in the big picture, doing something like this takes far more skill and experience.

Anyone can learn the technical and scientific aspects of brewing and kegging. However, making truly outstanding and unique beer is an ART.

 

[avanhemert]

My favorite part is,

I do rack to a secondary presently. But I think I will stop that. I need to run a test on that.

Three reasons why I go to a secondary otherwise I leave it alone:
- Free up my conical fermentator.
- If the beer is waiting too long in the primary so as not to catch off flavors from the trub.
- I’m going to re-pitch the yeast slurry from my conical.

Isn't kegging from the primary, secondary? and then that secondary would become conditioning?

 

[Piotr]

For the first time I bottled my beer skipping secondary. Brown Ale 1.042, 3 weeks primary and straight to the bottles.
And sure enough - it is over-carbonated. I think you can skip secondary, but only when you keg the beer and you can control the level of carbonation.

 

[neuron555]

I know that alot of people don't secondary, but I still like it for three reasons. You are really sure fermentation is done (if there is yeast in there, it can still ferment), it helps with clarification, and it makes you be patient and let it age a little longer so you aren't drinking green beer.

 

[giligson]

Coming back and doing all grain brews now after many years doing wine from grapes I would have to say:

For most beer styles (and for what most of your non homebrew friends think of when you say "would you like a beer") Fresh Beer Is The Best Beer.

You know some people have this impression that aged wine is best but that's not always the case either. Many types of white wines and some reds (Beaujolais Nouveaux for instance) are meant to be drunk very fresh - within months of bottling; their flavour profiles only deteriorating with age. Other wines are pretty much undrinkable until they have aged at least 2 years and then only get really good after 6+ years in bottle.

This all has to do with the chemistry of the drink and the tastes of the drinker. As the food/chemical you are consuming goes through time related changes during the aging process it's flavour changes. You as the consumer happen to like the flavour at a certain point X on its timeline.

I have to agree that for most beers and for most people this time X is very much within the 1 month (plus or minus) range. And for other beers and other tasters that time point is going to be different.

I agree wholeheartedly that if you follow good and simple brewing practice you will need less time waiting for your beer to heal from the mistakes of underpitching, overracking, underhopping etc etc.

 

[Darwin18]

I used a Wyeast American Ale smack pack yesterday for my first AG brew. Does that count as a starter or should I have made a larger starter? I'm still waiting for signs of activity but I'm not concerned yet.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Smack packs still require starters to achieve the pitching rates discussed in this thread.

Lack of a secondary DOES NOT impact the amount of control a brewer has over things like carbonation and clarity. A secondary can be helpful in bulk aging for extended periods of time. However, you can achieve proper clarity and carbonation by applying sound procedures using a primary alone.

 

[Malticulous]

Thanks for this thread. I really like how you say the beer is ready when it tastes good and the Micheal Jackson quote is great!

I have a little question. If kegged beer is ready after carbonating why would bottled beer be any different? I know different conditions of yeast, the specific gravities, the kind of priming, and temperature of bottle storage could effect the time needed greatly. Shaking will speed up carbonation in bottles just as it does in a keg and I'm certain it has the same ill effects on the sediment. But does bottle conditioning mandate more aging?

I seen Austin Homebrew Supply's new kits and Forest says bottle it in 10 days and when it's carbonated it's ready. These are only 1.041 kits. That's nearly as low as I personally would bother to make.

 

[discgolfin]

Thanks for this thread. I really like how you say the beer is ready when it tastes good and the Micheal Jackson quote is great!

I have a little question. If kegged beer is ready after carbonating why would bottled beer be any different? I know different conditions of yeast, the specific gravities, the kind of priming, and temperature of bottle storage could effect the time needed greatly. Shaking will speed up carbonation in bottles just as it does in a keg and I'm certain it has the same ill effects on the sediment. But does bottle conditioning mandate more aging?

I seen Austin Homebrew Supply's new kits and Forest says bottle it in 10 days and when it's carbonated it's ready. These are only 1.041 kits. That's nearly as low as I personally would bother to make.

Bottle conditioning gernally mandates longer aging simply to carb the beer. I can transfer beer into keg and have a fully carbed been in 2 days..do that with a bottle. The point is... I can crash cool my primary carboy to drop the yeast out and than keg and drink in just a few days..I generally do not do this but even with rolling bottles to carb up quick you have to let the co2 dissolve back and the yeast to drop to the bottom to clear the beer. I do agree proper brewing styles will speed up the aging process, and that new beers with the right amount of aging will always taste fresher and better than anything that sits in a keg or bottle for months and months. My house stout was best at 4 weeks after brewing..it was great for 5 months but after the first week of taping the keg it gradually lost that fresh roasted coffee..it just wasn't the same at 3 months than it was at 1 month...This will obiously be different for all beer types and styles.

J

 

[BrewMonsterHead]

To brew Lagers faster, use glass rashing-rings (potatoe chip shaped glass) to your fermentor. the yeast will have more surface area to digest your brew and grow. Budweiser does this with beachwood. The only draw back is that you will rack into a secondary if you do not now (I always do anyway) or you will have to use an in-line filter.

 

[frolickingmonkey]

This thread just expanded my mind immensely... Thanks to Yuri and everyone else who has posted! Great information and discussion!

 

[andyb0527]

Thanks for the great thread!

I just made a very simple pale ale 4 days ago and it is already done fermenting and the gravity sample I took tastes good! Without reading this thread I probably would have waited 3 or 4 weeks before kegging this but now I will have it on tap this weekend.

 

[Jolly McStanson]

Iv heard over pitching yeast will give ya some off flavors. Great thread, and I'm going to start over pitching anyway. I'M a big fan of "Kettle to Guzzle" as soon as possible. I'm a screaming alcoholic that loves good beer.

 

[scray24]

+1 on the great discussion topic.

Personal opinion is that it depends greatly on the style of beer you're trying to make and that goes with the last comment around over pitching. if you over pitch you may (_MAY_) reduce the amount of esters in your final product in some belgian/hefe styles but for a majority of the basic american styles (that I brew commonly and quaff daily) you can consistently get from brewing to serving in 3 wks or less.

The brewery that I work part time at consistently hits about 2 week turnaround from brew to serving and has gotten it as low as 10 days for a saison.

 

[KopyKat]

I know that alot of people don't secondary, but I still like it for three reasons. You are really sure fermentation is done (if there is yeast in there, it can still ferment), it helps with clarification, and it makes you be patient and let it age a little longer so you aren't drinking green beer.

Reason One: If you leave it in the primary the same occurs.
Reason Two: It will clear just as well in the primary in my experience.
Reason Three: Maybe for some but I leave it in the primary as long as need, up to 3 weeks at times.

I only secondary to free up a primary carboy.

I used to fuss over my beer fermenting. Looking in on it every morning and night, timing when fermentation started and when it was a minute overdue go into a frenzy of worry. Perhaps I exaggerate but for nearly all of my ales and lagers, I primary only and then keg.

I almost never look in on my repeat ales until a week is gone. I will rack to keg at 7 days with a hydrometer reading as I rack.

If I am brewing something higher gravity, hoppy, a new style or yeast or in any other way out of the norm, I follow procedures called for in that instance.

Brewing for me has become very uncomplicated but precise at the same time. I am precise about each step from grinding grain, mash temperatures, sanitation, boiling and chilling to fermentation temperature and pitching per Mr Malty.

In other words, I am in full agreement with the original poster.

And my beers are routinely exceeding my expectations.

 

[jxm387]

Traditional fermentation times are areound 9-12 days for lagers, 2-4 days for ales. Secondary flavor maturation is a matter of taste. If your formula, yeast, fermentation regime permit, you can certainly get away with shorter times to packaging and serving. Many of the English beers are obviously quick to market. Short aging does risk off flavors due to higher concentrations of acetaldehyde, diacetyl, esters, and some fusel alcohols, but you're also avoiding off flavors from carbonyl formation - and that's a real advantage since homebrewers aren't very good at avoiding these.

You can effectively shorten maturation times by using a diacetyl rest. This is effective for almost all beer styles. Don't shorten too much though or you'll risk high acetaldehyde levels.

Probably one of the most effective ways to shorten maturation time is simply to krausen. Fresh, actively fermenting yeast does a great job of consuming off flavors.

You can always accelerate your primary fermentation by rousing your yeast (w/ CO2, shaking, etc). You'll reduce esters (potentially negative for your ales) and increase fusel alcohols (harsh taste, slick mouthfeel). If you're effectively rousing yeast you'll also be able to ferment at slightly higher temperatures successfully. This can be difficult with lower nutrient beers, but if you're using all malt you should be fine. Be careful, though - this practice was part of the flavor changes that brought about the downfall of Schlitz's...

DB Breweries practices continuous fermentation. Not practically available for homebrewers, but very interesting: they can produce beer in as little as 1-2 days. Flavor matching to traditional fermentation isn't very good.

Just taste your beer regularly and get a feel for how your yeast performs and the time it requires to taste like a good beer. It's all about your personal taste. It shouldn't take more than a few weeks for most ales and a couple of months for a proper lager to finish. Don't short your maturation times unnecessarily. This isn't rocket science.