Age it warm longer

[mew]

Instead of conditioning the beer in a keg after primary and secondary fermentation have occured, I prefer to leave the beer in primary longer than is conventional (basically as long as it can sit there without picking up off-flavors). Unless the beer is a very delicate style, I leave it an extra week to two weeks in primary after active fermentation has subsided. The logic behind this is that the yeast in the trub cake of the primary "cleans up" the beer by metabolizing chemicals produced while they were going wild. There is less yeast in the secondary, bottle, or keg than in the primary, so the aging process goes considerably faster in the primary. Unless the beer is high gravity or has tons of hops, I usually forgo secondary. This seems relevent because this technique may reduce the need for later aging, warm or otherwise.

 

[BrewBrain]

This is a very interesting thought considering I usually see about a quarter of an inch or so of yeast in the secondary a day or so after racking. I assume most of that yeast would have stayed in suspension in primary. That's probably even more significant than the cake.

I still like clearing in secondary, but maybe I'll start leaving beer in primary for an extra week. It certainly can't hurt.

 

[homebrewer_99]

I have 8 cornies that have been in the keezer a couple of months...even an Oktoberfest that I brewed in March...untouched.

I've been on a business trip for the past 3 weeks and will be gone another...back home for a couple of days then off again for a week or so...lookes like a late O'fest for me...oh well...

 

[Bobby_M]

This is a very interesting thought considering I usually see about a quarter of an inch or so of yeast in the secondary a day or so after racking. I assume most of that yeast would have stayed in suspension in primary. That's probably even more significant than the cake.

I still like clearing in secondary, but maybe I'll start leaving beer in primary for an extra week. It certainly can't hurt.

I don't have any scientific qualifications but I find this theory illogical. The beer doesn't go through any kind of physical change after racking. Unless the trub has some kind of repelling properties, I don't think sediment knows which container its in. I'd suspect that immediate layer is a result of sucking up some of the already settled sediment that resettled in the secondary. I'm just curious why you suspect the racking process encourages more flocculation.

 

[brett]

I primary for 3 weeks, then bottle condition for as long as I can keep my pesky fingers off those bottles.

I feel them crying out: "drink me! drink me!"

I always end up cheating and drinking them young. I must learn discipline.

 

[BrewBrain]

I don't have any scientific qualifications but I find this theory illogical. The beer doesn't go through any kind of physical change after racking. Unless the trub has some kind of repelling properties, I don't think sediment knows which container its in. I'd suspect that immediate layer is a result of sucking up some of the already settled sediment that resettled in the secondary. I'm just curious why you suspect the racking process encourages more flocculation.

Well, now that you made me think about it I've decided I don't know. However, I find the amount of yeast on the bottom of the secondary builds very quickly to a level and then sort of stops building. Within a few hours I've generally got a pretty good layer going. I'm guessing it isn't building that fast in primary, but I use a bucket for primary and can't see it.

As you say, it could be settled sediment from primary that got sucked up. I try to be careful to not siphon that stuff, but who knows.

Only other thing I can think of is maybe the mixing action of racking jostles some of the yeast out of suspension, but that doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[BierMuncher]

...I'm just curious why you suspect the racking process encourages more flocculation...

All I know is that I racked an Anchor Amber to my secondary after 10 days and within 30 minutes there was a nice 1/4 inch of trub settled.

And I ain't no sloppy racker either.

Without exception...rack to secondary...beer becomes substantially clearer within a day or two. At least in my brewshop.

 

[Bobby_M]

It's not that I don't believe what you're observing. My curiousity as to the "why" is what's getting the best of me. Maybe it does have something to do with the trub layer having a static charge which repels new settlement. Maybe a slight bit of oxydation encourages separation.

I tried an extended primary, no secondary batch and you're right, it doesn't clear in the keg as fast. In fact, it took about an extra week to hit that cold conditioned clarity. In listening to the Jamil show (just about every episode), he claims his beers improved greatly by doing long primaries and then simply extending the cold conditioning in the kegs which I'd imagine is easy to do when you have a frickin walk in cold room.

 

[mr x]

Maybe C02 is being released in racking which helps settling...

 

[BierMuncher]

We prolly need a physics person to give an opinion.

My theory is that racking to a secondary thins out the wort. Yeast trub after all, despite how compacted and sticky it is at the bottom of the vessel, is still a liquid. A highly dense liquid that contirbutes to the overall concentration of yeast in the primary.

It's probably safe to estimate that the yeast cake represents ~90% of the yeast concentration in the primary.

Now suck off the liquid and leave behind that 90% concentration, and the new liquid is thinner and "frees up" the remaining yeast to settle out.

 

[Alamo_Beer]

BM I liked your reference to calling "FIRE" best...

 

[jayhoz]

Flocculation is the act of particles grouping together. At some point the density of the new larger particle is great enough that settling occurs.

In a still vessel the rate at which the particles come together is governed by the viscosity of the liquid, the temperature of the liquid, and I'm sure a bunch of other things.

When you rack to secondary the motion of the liquid causes these particles to come in contact with each other at much higher rate. This leads to faster flocculation and faster settling.

I think

 

[BierMuncher]

BM I liked your reference to calling "FIRE" best...

Heh, heh...

I forgot about that one. I'm all about analogies to help me understand stuff.

 

[BrewBrain]

Flocculation is the act of particles grouping together. At some point the density of the new larger particle is great enough that settling occurs.

In a still vessel the rate at which the particles come together is governed by the viscosity of the liquid, the temperature of the liquid, and I'm sure a bunch of other things.

When you rack to secondary the motion of the liquid causes these particles to come in contact with each other at much higher rate. This leads to faster flocculation and faster settling.

I think

So, if this is true (and I have no idea), tipping my bottles over to re-suspend yeast and get carbonation jump started may, in fact, have the opposite effect. I'd be better off leaving the bottles alone and keep the remaining suspended yeast from getting all touchy feely.

 

[mew]

Every time you rack, you let a little oxygen into solution. The yeast use this oxygen to multiply but stop soon after they run out.

 

[Beerthoven]

I brewed a PM kit on July 4, and a month after bottling it didn't taste very good. It had a vegetal aroma and flavor that I found distasteful.

I forgot about it and let it sit. Then I tried one the other night, about 2.5 months after I bottled it. Damn! Its really good! That weird flavor is completely gone, replaced by a nice toasted malty flavor and aroma. Even SWMBO is pounding them down.



Just goes to show you've got to let them age.

 

[BrewDey]

I'm thinking I'll need to pull that Alt out of the fridge then. I thought it had carbed all the way, but I poured one and it had virtually no head....as well as the same sweet/goofy off-flavors. It had been about 2 weeks at room temp, then about 3 in the fridge.

 

[jpuf]

Great thread guys, lots of speculation about why, but in the end, what we've always known. Patience pays.

 

[homebrewer_99]

Thanks BierMuncher!

I don't know what I'm thinking, maybe trying to save some CO2. But hell, why? I have 3 full 20# cylinders and might as well use them and save the corn sugar for bottling. Tomorrow I transfer, carb and wait.

With better planning you can use gyle to prime your kegs. I've done this with Weizens and was pleased with the results.

 

[MikeFlynn74]

but in the end, what we've always known. Patience pays

Your patiences will be rewarded

yea Ive had some beers that completely suck and then 4 months later they are liquid gold!

 

[MNBugeater]

Has it been determined if the ale aging process benefits in a warm environment or time or a combination of both?

Bobby mentioned in his original post that he drank them from kegerator and they weren't very good. Then they sat for month in the kegerator, presumably cold.

I found them to be barely drinkable. Too sweet, strange off flavors, etc. They sat in there for months not being poured.
.

Then he moved them out to a warm environment for a period of time and they significantly improved. But this doensn't necessarily mean the warm conditions were the producer of a better beer, it could have just been time?

Could they not have just benefited from the extra time while still in the kegerator? After sitting in the kegerator for the months prior, the yeast would have settled out and no longer be active due to the low temps. Not to mention after that much time there isnt any more fermentables available to continue a process. What exactly would have taken place in a warm environment that couldn't in the cool?

So was it really the warm environment that benefited the beer or just more time?

 

[Bobby_M]

It's a good question and I think the only way to know for sure is to split batch where one sample goes into the cold earlier and one stays warmer for say a month.

 

[korndog]

I started cold crashing ales in kegs at terminal, and going right to the kegerator for a few batches. My findings were in line with Bobby's. The ales I have let clear themselves, are superior in my mind. This is the process I am sticking with from now on. The beer is done when it's done. I keep them between 60-70F for this phase.

 

[zoebisch01]

So was it really the warm environment that benefited the beer or just more time?

I don't really think there is a cut-and-dried answer for this. What I do feel is that beer aging can be accelerated for some time in a warm environment, the question is if you can actually overdo it. The heat basically speeds up those changes that brings about the final flavor one is after, but if that process happens too quickly I think you can get off flavors.

There is some stuff, like Oktoberfest that I brew in March and serve up in late September. I really think the cool aging process helps keep the flavors clean which is key in a Lager. It depends on the style I guess. I'd say Ales, particularly stuff that has big Ester and Phenolic characteristics are better candidates for warm aging.

 

[tarheels]

has anyone experimented with spliting a batch and conditioning one cold and one warm and does this have the same result in a wheat beer.

 

[Schlenkerla]

[First off - I bottle]

I have had these same experiences. The first was my very first batch. A simple PA. As I recall it tasted fine at bottling. I let it sit for a month in my cool basement. Popped the first one.... It was OK but sweet and fairly well carbed.

Disappointed I started drinking batch 2. It was an Octoberfest Cream Ale. It was really good and young but it was really malty in comparison. I brewed batches 3, 4, 5... Then went back to number 1 when it had been bottled for ~ 3 months. It was a completely different beer. It wasn't sweet at all. It dried up well.

I think what had happened was the priming solution wasn't completely used up. My house is rather cool when I made it ~ 62-68F (Feb 2006). The yeast used up the majority of sugars and created pressure. I think the pressure alone slows down the fermentation process to were it took longer for the yeast to chug away at the residual sugars.

I have Biermunchers Cream of 3 Crop right now that is conditioning warm.
I believe its on week 3 in the bottle. I Primaried for 2 weeks, 2ndary for 2 weeks. My beer is at ~ 7 weeks. When I tasted it at 6 weeks it was sweet. I was concerned that I under-hopped as a result a really great extraction 91%. ProMash was set at 75%.

I think its sweet tasting for several reasons. Not specifically from low hopping. I say this because it did not taste sweet at bottling. I think the priming sugar is not all used up. I also primed it w/ 6oz of corn sugar so it will be really effervescent.

I plan to use it in my HB club's "Convert A Bud Drinker Party".

 

[Sea]

If anyone does an experiment with this, please post the results. Also, if said person has the guts to try a higher temp like bobby's accident, 80-85 deg., I think this would be beneficial.:

Personally I have no way of keeping kegged/bottled beer at 70 deg, as I have no AC. It's either in the keezer, or at least 80-85 deg.