Aeration and yeast starter?

[daphatgrant]

Hey everyone, very new here, is it still necessary to aerate your wort even if you use a yeast starter? I have a stir plate but am waiting on my flask and am looking at the Williams. 5 micron oxygen aeration system.

http://www.williamsbrewing.com/WILLIAMS-5-MICRON-OXYGEN-AERATION-SYSTEM-P3668.aspx

Thanks for the input

 

[MrDarcy]

Yes, even though a yeast starter is one of the best things you can do to ensure a healthy fermentation, you should still aerate your wort. Perhaps even more so?! Anyhow, aerating w oxygen is great, but you can still make great beer w more traditional homebrewing methods--shaking, aquarium pump, etc. But if you can step up to O2 now, more power to you!

 

[daphatgrant]

Yes, even though a yeast starter is one of the best things you can do to ensure a healthy fermentation, you should still aerate your wort. Perhaps even more so?! Anyhow, aerating w oxygen is great, but you can still make great beer w more traditional homebrewing methods--shaking, aquarium pump, etc. But if you can step up to O2 now, more power to you!

Thanks for the quick response . It's $50 to start but I want to do this right so I'll get on it, thanks again

 

[sky4meplease]

Aerate the starter wort too!

 

[daphatgrant]

Aerate the starter wort too!

Really? Even when using a stir plate?

 

[bierhund]

You should be fine just using a stir plate. You could aerate your wort before the stir plate if you wanted. It won't hurt but not nessecary, especially at a homebrewer level.

 

[bierhund]

Also if you don't have it, "Yeast" by Chris White of White Labs Yeast is a must have book in your library. Very informational. I'd argue one of the most useful in the Element series (haven't brought myself to read "Water" yet, though I hear equally useful).

 

[MrDarcy]

Just for clarification (I think I'm confused myself about which "wort" we're talking about here): the stir plate should be sufficient for aerating your starter wort; in addition, however, the wort in your fermenter (into which you'll pitch your starter) should also be aerated. The aerating methods suggested above (e.g., aquarium pump, oxygen wand) were directed at the latter wort in your fermenter... I doubt they'd hurt your starter wort (provided it's sanitary), but seems overkill to me if you're using a stir plate..

 

[sky4meplease]

No doubt starters can do just fine with or without stir plates, oxygen, yeast nutrient or much attention to temperature.
However, when speaking of starters in White and Zainasheff's Yeast book, it states "Every time you make a starter, keep in mind the four main factors that affect yeast growth and health: nutrients, temperature, sugars, and PH. Key nutrients include oxygen, zinc, amino acids and nitrogen. Oxygen is one of the things many Brewers ignore, yet it is critical to the survival and growth of yeast and tends to be the most limiting factor for most starters".
For this and other information obtained from the Yeast book, experienced brewers and scientific types I oxygenate all of my wort prior to pitching.
Educate yourself and decide what works best for you.
Sorry for pulling your thread off topic.

 

[daphatgrant]

No doubt starters can do just fine with or without stir plates, oxygen, yeast nutrient or much attention to temperature.
However, when speaking of starters in White and Zainasheff's Yeast book, it states "Every time you make a starter, keep in mind the four main factors that affect yeast growth and health: nutrients, temperature, sugars, and PH. Key nutrients include oxygen, zinc, amino acids and nitrogen. Oxygen is one of the things many Brewers ignore, yet it is critical to the survival and growth of yeast and tends to be the most limiting factor for most starters".
For this and other information obtained from the Yeast book, experienced brewers and scientific types I oxygenate all of my wort prior to pitching.
Educate yourself and decide what works best for you.
Sorry for pulling your thread off topic.

Not a problem at all, I'm new and happy for any and all input. For right now my plan will be the do a yeast starter with a stir plate and add that to wort that I've aerated.

 

[sky4meplease]

That sounds like a good plan.
For what it's worth, I use a set up similar to the one your purchasing for oxygenating.
I did some tests early in my 02 infancy where on brew day I poured chilled wort through a strainer as I always did for aeration and pulled a sample. I then hit the wort with 02 for 45 seconds or so and pulled another sample. I took both samples to the waist water treatment facility in the town where I live and they tested both samples for dissolved oxygen.
I performed this test on a few different brew days before dialing in the 8-10 ppm of dissolved 02 recommended for chilled wort by White and Zainasheff prior to pitching yeast.
The results concluded that splashed wort produced a ppm of 2-4 and 45 seconds with the 02 would produce roughly 14 ppm.
My conclusion was that 10-15 seconds would produce the desired 8-10 ppm recommended.
Additionally, proper or elevated 02 levels will produce less esters but more fusel alcohols in your beer. If your brewing styles that benefit from esters or you prefer them or brewing styles that don't benefit from fusel alcohols then you may elect to reduce or eliminate the 02.
Brew on my friend.

 

[daphatgrant]

That sounds like a good plan.
For what it's worth, I use a set up similar to the one your purchasing for oxygenating.
I did some tests early in my 02 infancy where on brew day I poured chilled wort through a strainer as I always did for aeration and pulled a sample. I then hit the wort with 02 for 45 seconds or so and pulled another sample. I took both samples to the waist water treatment facility in the town where I live and they tested both samples for dissolved oxygen.
I performed this test on a few different brew days before dialing in the 8-10 ppm of dissolved 02 recommended for chilled wort by White and Zainasheff prior to pitching yeast.
The results concluded that splashed wort produced a ppm of 2-4 and 45 seconds with the 02 would produce roughly 14 ppm.
My conclusion was that 10-15 seconds would produce the desired 8-10 ppm recommended.
Additionally, proper or elevated 02 levels will produce less esters but more fusel alcohols in your beer. If your brewing styles that benefit from esters or you prefer them or brewing styles that don't benefit from fusel alcohols then you may elect to reduce or eliminate the 02.
Brew on my friend.

Very good to know! I was thinking that I'd be oxygenating for a full min, it looks like 20 secs max would do. What size stone are you using? A 2 micron or a .5? Thanks, as I'm assure that that would change the time needed to get to 8-10ppm.

Also if you don't have it, "Yeast" by Chris White of White Labs Yeast is a must have book in your library. Very informational. I'd argue one of the most useful in the Element series (haven't brought myself to read "Water" yet, though I hear equally useful).

It's on my Christmas list

 

[normonster]

Also if you don't have it, "Yeast" by Chris White of White Labs Yeast is a must have book in your library. Very informational. I'd argue one of the most useful in the Element series (haven't brought myself to read "Water" yet, though I hear equally useful).

I have Water and so far, first couple chapters, way too much info and no practical steps/directions. I'm hoping there's something in there for me eventually.

 

[sky4meplease]

I am using a 2 micron stone.
"Water" is pretty technical. The book is still a great resource though. I found myself back into it the other day while looking up something on PH. The Yeast book and Malt book didn't offer me what I was looking for but Water had everything.
I use Brewers Friend as brewing software and most of my water calculations are done on that but I still refer to Water from time to time for technical information.

 

[hardrain]

That sounds like a good plan.
For what it's worth, I use a set up similar to the one your purchasing for oxygenating.
I did some tests early in my 02 infancy where on brew day I poured chilled wort through a strainer as I always did for aeration and pulled a sample. I then hit the wort with 02 for 45 seconds or so and pulled another sample. I took both samples to the waist water treatment facility in the town where I live and they tested both samples for dissolved oxygen.
I performed this test on a few different brew days before dialing in the 8-10 ppm of dissolved 02 recommended for chilled wort by White and Zainasheff prior to pitching yeast.
The results concluded that splashed wort produced a ppm of 2-4 and 45 seconds with the 02 would produce roughly 14 ppm.
My conclusion was that 10-15 seconds would produce the desired 8-10 ppm recommended.
Additionally, proper or elevated 02 levels will produce less esters but more fusel alcohols in your beer. If your brewing styles that benefit from esters or you prefer them or brewing styles that don't benefit from fusel alcohols then you may elect to reduce or eliminate the 02.
Brew on my friend.

Incredibly interesting, thanks for sharing! White had similar results from shaking, and so very interesting to

On the books, I'd say +1 to getting Yeast. Malt was incredibly helpful for me as well, I think I (paradoxically) grasped my best understanding of fermentation from that one rather than Yeast, the latter focusing more on yeast health and population (but to be clear -- both are great). I've actually not been able to get through Water, the only one still unread for me, although I'm mustering up the energy for another shot.

To the original question -- I found a starter 3x'd the quality of my beer...I think in large part because I hadn't been focused on the packaging date of my yeast, which was often way too old, and so rather than the population issue my personal antidotal opinion is it's more attributed to yeast health rather than specific quantities...although I started using a stone at the same time, so I can't isolate those two variables. And I'm with the others that o2 in a starter seems to fail the cost/benefit test, but wouldn't hurt.

 

[Hoofer]

I aerate my starter before it hits the stirplate, and wort before pitching the yeast.

 

[sky4meplease]

Nice to see an older thread come back to life.
I have Malt and need to get deeper into it and find some practical information. I am stuck in the science and technical sections and would like a better understanding in that area but it's hard reading for me. I think I need to move on and come back if needed. The book Water is the same way and I found very useful information in the pages of that book even bookmarking it for things I keep coming back to.
As for starters/aeration I now build up from slants so multiple stepped starters (25ml, 250ml, 500ml, 1,500ml and so on) and adding O2 would be counterproductive to my sterilization with the limited science gear I have currently so running things on the stir plate is how I get O2 into my starters. If I were doing single or double steps only and building up from large propagations I would definitely still add O2 to my starters and I still oxygenate my beer wort for about 20 seconds prior to pitching.
The one thing I have noticed is the enormous benefits of using the stir plate in terms of cell growth. If I were to choose between adding pure O2 to my starters or using a stir plate I would definitely choose the stir plate. The constant addition of O2 from stirring pays huge dividends as I have seen from doing cell counts.

 

[Gavin C]

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