Advice on my cider method

[Amnesia180]

Hi all,

I'm new to the forum and have joined to get some tips on cider making.

Ive got an orchard with a mix of eating and cooking apples and instead of baking with them would like to try and make some cider (I figure now is the time to start as they're just beginning to drop).

I just wanted to double check I've got the basics correct....

I've got some kit to press and chop the apples, so obviously do that first.
Then, once I've got the juice, put the juice into a fermentation bucket with campden tablets for 24 hours and cover with a tea towel or put the lid on losely.
After 24 hours, add yeast (I'm going to try ervin English ale yeast) then leave a few days with lid on losely.
Then, after a few days move to liquid into demijohns with an air stop for a few months. Fill right up to ensure no air is in.
Once bubbles stop, fermentation is complete.
Move to clean demijohn leaving sediment (lees).
Leave another month and then bottle into sterile ale bottles and use crown caps to seal.

Does that sound about right and can I do anything else?

Thanks for any advice!

 

[madscientist451]

Get some star san or something similar to sanitize your bucket and carboys.
Cleaning and sanitizing are different operations, and I won't go into that subject here.
I skip the bucket and start with a carboy.
I hold my cider for 6 months or more in 5 gallon carboys. So I start off with about 5.5 gallons in a bigger carboy. After primary stops, I'll let it settle for a while, then rack it away from the yeast into a clean carboy.
Some apples make better cider than others, you'll have to experiment with what you have to see what you like.
Early season apples make a bland cider (in my opinion) I prefer mid to late season apples, your apples are probably different compared to what I've got around here.
The traditional way is to let the apples age for a month is a cool place. This softens them up a little, they ripen a little more and flavors develop.
This is easier to do with late season apples when the temperatures drop. In the warm late summer the apples will spoil. Don't use apples with rot, but you can cut the bad parts out if you are thrifty.
Some beer yeast is ok, some I don't like at all in cider, again you'll have to experiment. Getting some gallon jugs and trying different yeasts/apple combinations is a good practice.
You can add Campden, but I usually don't. Sometimes I'll do a wild ferment, or just pitch a big dose of cider yeast and the wild yeast is overtaken by the commercial yeast. Sometimes I'll let the wild yeast get started and then pitch more yeast to add complexity.
If you are using dropped apples, adding some Campden is a good idea.
A cider yeast that has worked for me is Brewer's Best Cider House Select.
You can save the yeast cake and re-pitch this yeast many times, but I usually don't save it once the season is over.
I make a bunch of different kinds of cider and bottle in 1/2 gallon jugs and 1.5 L wine bottles with screw caps, I'll usually do some blending of batches when I drink it, sometimes adding pear cider frozen juice concentrate, or even 50/50 with some beer.

 

[Amnesia180]

Thanks for the very detailed reply.

We currently have 6 demijon/carboys, I think like you've said, I might experiment by making 3 different types, then rack into the 3 empty demijohns.

So, I could put the juice into demijohns (skipping the bucket). The fruit is fallen from the tree, so put in campden. Leave 24 hours.
Add yeast (ill experiment with 3 different types, 1 in each demijohns).
Leave a week or so, then put the airtight stops in. Leave until fermentation is complete. Rack into empty demijohns, leaving yeast behind. Leave another month or however long before bottling.

Does that sound a bit better?

 

[Grod1]

Get a hydrometer so you know what your dealing with.

 

[madscientist451]

I put the airlock on right away, there's no point in waiting. I agree with the above, get a hydrometer so you know what your starting gravity is.

 

[Amnesia180]

If I go down the method of putting into a demi-john/carboy for 7 days with yeast. Once sediment has dropped, then syphon to a new fresh/clean/sterile demi-john/carboy. Obviously the sediment takes up volume, so do I have to add water to make sure the liquid reaches the neck of the demi-john?

 

[Maylar]

No, that will dilute your cider. Better to use a smaller carboy even if you have to split it between multiple jugs. It's normal for me to end up with 3 + 1 + 1/2 gallon jugs from a 5 gallon batch.

 

[ong]

Or if you're doing 3 different yeasts, collect an extra quart or so of juice for each batch and ferment in mason jars to top off the carboys. I do this with wine all the time.

 

[buMbLeB]

Quick tip - make sure your Campden tablets are fully dissolved and well-stirred into the juice, unless you're ok with a spontaneous wild ferment taking off. You can find my own recent thread in this sub detailing just such an adventure.

 

[Amnesia180]

Thanks all,

So, I could just press more apples a day or two beforehand and add at point 6 when needed? Is it a necessity that the demi-johns are filled that close to the neck?

Think I've refined the method I'm going to take;
1) Syphon the juice into demi-johns (up to neck) and ad Campden tablets, put cotton wool in the lids.
2) Leave 24 hours.
3) Test levels, taking a sample of liquid into a clean beaker. Looking for 1.040 - 1.045 (add sugar if need it stronger).
4) Add yeast. Secure airlock (use sodium metabisulphate solution)
Fermentation will begin.
5) Leave for 7 days or until fermentation has slowed.
6) Transfer via syphon to demi-john (up to neck) leaving sediment (lees) behind, let fermentation continue.
7) Once bubbling finishes, fermentation is complete.
Specific Gravity should be 1.000 for 3 consecutive days.

 

[Morrey]

Following this thread as apple harvest time is coming soon. Regarding fermentation temperature control for ciders: Seems like one of the biggies for beer brewing is proper fermentation temp controls.

Does it stand to reason for ciders that I should stay within the temp range of a particular yeast strain just as I would with beer? I suspect fusel alcohols may be formed if I was out of range too much.

With this said, I am looking at my pipeline and the planned batches I have coming up needing fermenter temp controls. If I used London Ale Yeast III in a cider, would I roughly calculate the necessary time in a Ferm Chamber roughly the same time that I would need for a typical beer? Two weeks is my norm in primary.

I apologize to the OP for heading off topic with this thread. But I don't see any mention of temp control...not only for my benefit is this question...but I hope the OP gains some insight here as well.

 

[Maylar]

Yes, temperature is a big factor in cider making. You have to keep the temp within the recommended range of the yeast, and in my experience being at the low end of the range is best. For most ale yeasts it seems that 60-62 F is the ideal spot.

Cooler temps make for a slower ferment which helps retain the aroma and flavor of the apples. Warmer temps risk fusel alcohols and also increase the potential for SO2 (sulfur) production. The one dumper batch of cider I've ever made was with Nottingham at 75+ F.

There's a reason that cider is a winter sport... folks like me who don't have temp control get to use Mother Nature and the garage / basement. If you are blessed with accurate temperature control, buy Claude Jolicoeur's book "The New Cider Maker's Handbook", and discover how to make world class cider at 50°F with wine yeast.

I don't brew beer so I can't compare the two, but my cider usually takes 3-4 weeks in primary then a couple months in secondary to clear and age a bit.

 

[Amnesia180]

I hadn't considered temperature much, just going to put it in a warm dark cupboard... Unfortunately I've not got a way of controlling the temperature.

Another couple of questions ;
1) Do the demijohns have to be filled to the neck? If so, shall I just make some more juice a day before I transfer to clean demijohns leaving the sediment behind?

2) I'm going to try Nottingham Ale Yeast, gervin sparkling wine yeast and a generic cider yeast. I enjoy dry cider. I'll be adding sugar to try and turn a couple of the bottles champagne batch and cider batch fizzy. Would this work?

 

[madscientist451]

My attempt to use Nottingham was a failure, the yeast produced a lot of sulfur aroma/taste. Your apples are different, so your results may vary.
The fermenter should not be filled to the neck. You need to leave room for the foaming that takes place during fermentation. Sometimes I'll let the solids settle and transfer a day after pressing, most times I don't, figuring those solids can add some character.
You don't have to transfer on any pre-determined schedule, just wait until its done. Many people add more Campden when racking the cider.
I wouldn't consider any yeast to be "generic". Different yeasts bring different character to whatever it is you are making.
I have my favorite yeasts, but for me, the variety and ripeness of the apples is the first consideration to worry about.

 

[Amnesia180]

Thanks for the reply.

When you say wait until it's done - do you mean wait until the fermentation (bubbling in the air lock) has stopped?
Does this mean I can just leave the sediment in the demijohn and syphon straight to bottles once the fermentation is complete? Or let fermentation complete, then rack into clean demijohns and allow the cider to clear?

I've decided to order the following;
Lalvin EC-1118 Champagne Yeast
Safale S-04, English Ale Yeast
White Labs WLP 775 English Cider Yeast (i think this is a liquid, how would I prepare it?)

 

[ong]

Don't rely on the airlock. It's really not a good way of assessing fermentation (your vessel might not be airtight). Take hydrometer readings a few days apart and when they haven't changed for a few days, it's done.

 

[Amnesia180]

Thanks very much. I've found a small jar that will get me approximately a litre or so of juice, so I have decided to make that which should make up the volume difference once I have racked away the sediment.

I'm planning on making the first batch this weekend. Then a few days later I disappear for a couple of weeks, but I'm hoping the yeast will continue to do its thing and when I bet back it'll be ready for secondary.

 

[Drewed]

1. EC-1118 is refered to as "The Hammer." It will ferment just about anything, but will also blow all of the apple flavor out. Do NOT use it for cider. You will not be happy.

2. For a one gallon batch, remove the WLP775 from the fridge. I think that one comes in a packet, I tend to gently mush it around with my fingers. Allow it to come to room temp and then pour/ squeeze it into the must.

3. Most one gallon glass carboys say '1 gallon' on the shoulder. That is about where you want to fill to, just where it starts to narrow. That 'should' leave you with enough head space. You could go with a blow off tube if you have uber ferment.

4. Cider is better if fermented cooler rather than warmer. A 'warm dark cabinet' is not what you want. A cooler corner in the basement is better.

5. You need a hydrometer for a starting gravity reading, and to know when ferment is over. Counting bubble is as bad as adding raisins as nutrient.

6. Once ferment is done, and the yeast have settled out, then is the time to rack to secondary, if you want. One gallon batches are not going to put a lot of pressure on the dead yeast, so you really aren't going to get off flavors for leaving the cider on the lees for a month or two.
HOWEVER!!!!
Siphoning directly into bottles is risky as it will most likely suck up some of the sediment. If you want crystal clear cider, then you will need to rack it at least once, maybe twice or more. IF you don't mind a cloud or smultz int he bottom of the bottle, then don't. I rack once into the bottling bucket, add sweetener or bottle priming sugar and bottle, but I like a little cloud in my cider.

 

[Amnesia180]

Yes, I did a lot of research on EC-1118. I was going to add about 1kg of sugar to the juice at the same time I add the yeast. I like a very dry cider, and the EC-1118 is the one I was going to add sugar to at the time of bottling to give it a carbonated effect. I have read across numerous forums lots of people being happy with the EC-1118 yeast. Plus, I have purchased it now, so might as well give it a try. This is the yeast I will be using this weekend, so it will have plenty of time to mature (which is when I'm told it will start to taste better).

Regarding cloudy cider vs clear cider - at this stage, I will just be happy with having made cider. It may be something I refine over time.

But if I am doing smaller batches, I may just leave it in the demijohn with sediment for the whole fermentation process and only rack away from sediment once fermentation has stopped. I will then move to clean demijohns, purely to try and clear the cider a little (it is at this point I will add another campden tablet, which means it also won't matter if the demijohn is not full to the neck correct?).

Thanks for all the detail! Loving the input!

 

[Morrey]

Having done only one cider, I am by no means a cider guru. Beer is more my thing but SWMBO is telling me a cider is in my future. And in all honesty, I am getting excited about using fresh pressed apples this fall.

My limited experience last year led me to use bottled AJ and 1118 yeast. It got bone dry as anticipated, but it also seemed to strip all the apple flavors from the juice. Maybe fresh juice is different, but nonetheless, I had no flavor. I killed off the active yeast since I was kegging, and tried AJ concentrate to put back in some flavors. I call this effort a failure so be aware that I lost all my flavors with the 1118.

 

[Amnesia180]

Dammit! I really hope I've not made a mistake by using 1118... I might just make 1 gallon of it, forget the secondary - just leave it in primary. Then move to a clean demijohn just to allow a few weeks for it to settle and clear. Bottle, then leave for a few months. I've read that as the yeast is strong, if I add sugar to carbonate it, will this restart the fermentation or will it lightly carbonate?

I might get a 4th yeast (can anyone recommend a nice wine yeast that will produce a medium-dry cider) and do that the following weekend instead.

 

[Silver79]

I like red star pastuer Blanc chapagne yeast, works quick, ferments dry, I like the taste.

 

[ExperimentalBrewer]

I recently switched from red star pastuer Blanc to Nottingham Ale yeast. I like the nottingham much better. To each his own I guess. I still use the red star in mead, I find with a long aging the mead needs, the red star mellows out.

I find with shorter frements the nottingham is clearer.

 

[Amnesia180]

Thanks for the replies all.

I've finally give it a go - taken all the advice onboard and will see what I get at the end of it!

The cider is currently in a dark cupboard (no natural light) and is at a steady temperature, will this be okay? Or should it be open to light?

 

[Silver79]

Looks good! Congrats on your first cider! You are going to love it.

 

[DrBubbles]

The cider is currently in a dark cupboard (no natural light) and is at a steady temperature, will this be okay? Or should it be open to light?

That's fine. There's no reason at all to expose it to light. Although, it's not strictly important to keep cider out of the light unless you're adding hops. Definitely would avoid direct sunlight though.