adding grain before water

[ebbelwoi]

Just thinking out loud here. I use a sous vide BIAB setup with a 7-gallon kettle. I do mostly pilsners, and usually do step mashes at 63C (145F), then 70C (158F). I also stir every five minutes or so to keep temps uniform.

After reading another thread about underletting, lowering the grain in, etc., I started thinking... I do my mash and boil on my kitchen stove, right next to my kitchen sink. I can get 60C (140F) hot water straight out of the tap. It's already quite soft and clean, but I can also use the inline filter.

My question is, would there be any benefits and/or drawbacks to filling the bag, then adding the water by pouring it over the top? Seems like I might get fewer doughballs that way, not that I get a lot in the first place.

One thing I wonder about is what effect this mash-in of sorts would have on extraction. My goal is generally an OG around 1.045-1.050, with an FG of 1.01 or higher. Would starting with 60C/140F water affect my process and product much?

Any thoughts?

 

[mongoose33]

If you have some sort of silicone tube, you can underlet underneath the bag. I did that with mine. Just run the tube down the side of the kettle between the bag and the kettle.

Pouring on top I'd think would give you dough-balls. You'll be surprised if you do underletting--no dough balls. Shocked me the first time.

The issue with starting with 140-degree water is you'll probably end up, using a 5-gallon grain bill, with mash temps around 130 or less. Then you'll have to figure out how to get it to 150 or so. Heating mash from the bottom is tough.

When I did about an 11-pound grain bill, I'd typically have the strike water temp about 160 degrees or so. That's using 7 or 7.25 gallons of strike water, BIAB. The cooler grain would drop the temp to about 152 or so.



What i used to do was put the strike water in the cooler and then drain it into the kettle. You might be able to use a funnel connected to a tube, or something similar to what I have above.

 

[ebbelwoi]

I suppose I could pull the silicone tube off of my wort chiller, then run it from under the sink, up to the kettle.

I use my stovetop gas burner to raise to my desired mash temp, with help from my Anova sous vide immersion cooker, which I then use to maintain my mash temp. This setup allows me to hold temps pretty well.

I don't actually have a problem with doughballs, but it's always interesting to consider a new technique. I also like to take advantage of any little thing I can.

 

[Carolina_Matt]

You might not have this problem with your water, but when I first started out I would use hot water from my sink. I would fill the fermenting bucket because it had gallon markers on it, then pour it into the kettle. Whenever I would do that, there would be some black dots left behind in the bucket. It only happens with hot water and not cold water. I've read that it may be due to the hot water heater, but I don't know specifics.

Ever since reading up on that, I start with cold tap water even though it adds time to get to mash temp.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I think one of the main reason for underletting is to keep oxygen out of the mash water. If that is not an issue for you, there seems to be little difference in adding the water to the grains vs. adding the grains to the water.

 

[mongoose33]

I think one of the main reason for underletting is to keep oxygen out of the mash water. If that is not an issue for you, there seems to be little difference in adding the water to the grains vs. adding the grains to the water.

I think the reason is to avoid exposing the grist to oxygen as much as possible. Stirring in the grist exposes both it and the water to O2, which in LODO approaches is undesirable.

 

[brewbama]

I think one of the main reason for underletting is to keep oxygen out of the mash water. If that is not an issue for you, there seems to be little difference in adding the water to the grains vs. adding the grains to the water.

I would only add that when I slowly underlet the mash (adding the grain to the MLT then pump water into the drain valve) I have never had a dough ball. I am not sure why but that was not the case when I added grain to water. ...but it is a happy byproduct of the underlet process.

 

[crane]

Underletting works to prevent dough balls because the dry grain floats on top of the water. As the grain gets wet it will drop below the surface of the slowly exposing more dry grain to the water

 

[mongoose33]

Underletting works to prevent dough balls because the dry grain floats on top of the water. As the grain gets wet it will drop below the surface of the slowly exposing more dry grain to the water

Other than a few bits and pieces, my grain never floats. The water works its way up through the grain until it covers it.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

UNderletting does not necessarily mean no doughballs.
I underlet and sometimes I get doughballs if I don't condition the grain.

Conditioning the grain can reduce or prevent them. If you don't condition, crush fine, and dough in above 140*F, you can still get doughballs aplenty, which will need to be broken up in stirring (doughballs shouldn't form if you dough in below 140, according to Kunze).

Again, conditioning the grain before crushing helps a lot to prevent them since the husk remains much more intact and you get less "flour" to make doughballs.

Or you can just stir them to break them up, which you should be doing anyway (stirring).

 

[mongoose33]

UNderletting does not necessarily mean no doughballs.
I underlet and sometimes I get doughballs if I don't condition the grain.

Conditioning the grain can reduce or prevent them. If you don't condition, crush fine, and dough in above 140*F, you can still get doughballs aplenty, which will need to be broken up in stirring (doughballs shouldn't form if you dough in below 140, according to Kunze).

Again, conditioning the grain before crushing helps a lot to prevent them since the husk remains much more intact and you get less "flour" to make doughballs.

Or you can just stir them to break them up, which you should be doing anyway (stirring).

That's interesting. I don't seem to get them, at least to the extent that they float. My typical strike temp is 160 degrees or so.

I never condition the grain. I've thought about doing that, but just haven't gotten the urge. I'll do it at some point, see if it makes a difference to my brews.

Maybe it has to do with the speed of underletting. I underlet at about a gallon per minute. Maybe underletting faster doesn't give the grain time to absorb the liquid.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

That's interesting. I don't seem to get them, at least to the extent that they float. My typical strike temp is 160 degrees or so.

I never condition the grain. I've thought about doing that, but just haven't gotten the urge. I'll do it at some point, see if it makes a difference to my brews.

Maybe it has to do with the speed of underletting. I underlet at about a gallon per minute. Maybe underletting faster doesn't give the grain time to absorb the liquid.

Speed of underletting could be a factor. I never measure it - I just let it go as fast as it will by gravity through a 1/2" tube.

That said, my doubghballs, when I get them, also do not float. They stay buried in the grain bed (just like yours, mine stays on the bottom - that's normal when underletting). I only know I have doughballs when I stir after the water is in to ensure the temp evens out and is as homogenous as it can be.