adding dark grains at vorlauf

[helibrewer]

When I make stouts, I don't add dark grains to the mash at all. Instead, I steep them in the wort after I combine all the runnings in the BK. Makes a much smoother tasting beer. I imagine you would get similar results adding them to the mash right before lauter, in fact I've been meaning to try it that way, would cut some time off brewday. The first stout I made I mashed everything and it came out with a very harsh bitterness. And if you're not getting the roastiness you want using this method, use more grain.

^^^ This is basically what Strong suggests for all grains that don't need conversion. He adds it during vorlauf because it's easier but he said steeping it seperately works great too. He also adds bittering hops as FWH's and doesn't add any others outside of the 20 minute mark. Instead of dry hopping he adds those hops during his whirlpool.

 

[bumstigedy]

He says FWH is roughly equal to a 65 minute addition in terms of IBU contribution. I assume this is for fly sparging. I'm not sure what the IBU contribution would be when batch sparging since It is so much quicker.

 

[steelersrbrun]

So I ended up mashing the pale chocolate and brown and I added the carafa and dark chocolate to the mash at the end of the sac rest. The raw wort looked and tasted wonderful. I will be kegging it up next week....I'll post an update.

 

[befus]

Wasn't there also some talk of steeping the dark grains in cold or room temperature water and just adding that to the boil?

 

[Stauffbier]

Wasn't there also some talk of steeping the dark grains in cold or room temperature water and just adding that to the boil?

I was discussing this in another thread as well. I'll be trying that soon!

 

[steelersrbrun]

I was discussing this in another thread as well. I'll be trying that soon!

I used that technique on a milk stout. It turned out great but it's a lot of extra work.

 

[befus]

I used that technique on a milk stout. It turned out great but it's a lot of extra work.

Putting six-eight ounces of black patent in a quart ,or less, of water for 24 hours and straining it into your kettle?!?

 

[steelersrbrun]

Putting six-eight ounces of black patent in a quart ,or less, of water for 24 hours and straining it into your kettle?!?

I ground up the dark grains and steeped them overnight....the straining was what took time.....it had all these funky particles I didn't want in my brew so I had to strain and skim a few times....the liquid was added at 15 minutes left. The last mash addition requires no straining, skimming or having to wash all the crap you use in cold steeping. Try both and see what you prefer....that's why it's great to be a homebrewer.

 

[BBL_Brewer]

Putting six-eight ounces of black patent in a quart ,or less, of water for 24 hours and straining it into your kettle?!?

Using such a small amount of water doesn't sound very effeicient to me in tems of extaction. Normally when we steep, we steep in the full boil volume and there's lots of water to disolve the sugars in. You're only going to get around 3/4 of a quart from your method after the grain absorbs it's share. I've been wanting to try the cold steeping method but I would prefer to use more water (which will throw off my mash and likely lower my efficiency since I'll be sparging less), so I haven't done it. Do those of you who cold steep use small amounts of water and get good results? Maybe I'm missing something.

 

[steelersrbrun]

Using such a small amount of water doesn't sound very effeicient to me in tems of extaction. Normally when we steep, we steep in the full boil volume and there's lots of water to disolve the sugars in. You're only going to get around 3/4 of a quart from your method after the grain absorbs it's share. I've been wanting to try the cold steeping method but I would prefer to use more water (which will throw off my mash and likely lower my efficiency since I'll be sparging less), so I haven't done it. Do those of you who cold steep use small amounts of water and get good results? Maybe I'm missing something.

I would have to check back in Gordon's book for the water to grain ratio on the cold steep. It really wont have any impact on your overall process. There is no extraction or conversion going on just coloring. The method is used mainly just to reduce the bitterness you can extract from the dark grains.

 

[Stauffbier]

What I plan on doing is using 1.5 qts per pound for cold steeping the dark grain. I'll cold steep for 24 hours. Then I'm going to dump the entire contents (grains and water) into my MLT when I sparge....

 

[steelersrbrun]

What I plan on doing is using 1.5 qts per pound for cold steeping the dark grain. I'll cold steep for 24 hours. Then I'm going to dump the entire contents (grains and water) into my MLT when I sparge....

That's interesting! Can't hurt. Post how it turns out.

 

[Stauffbier]

That's interesting! Can't hurt. Post how it turns out.

I should also mention that I'm considering trying a cold sparge on this batch as well. I've heard interesting things about it, so I want to try it....

 

[steelersrbrun]

I should also mention that I'm considering trying a cold sparge on this batch as well. I've heard interesting things about it, so I want to try it....

A cold sparge? I have never even heard about that. Wouldn't that just leave most of the sugar behind?

 

[rockfish42]

A cold sparge? I have never even heard about that. Wouldn't that just leave most of the sugar behind?

Nope
http://braukaiser.com/lifetype2/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=129&blogId=1
Though it doesn't seem overly attractive to me.

 

[Stauffbier]

A cold sparge? I have never even heard about that. Wouldn't that just leave most of the sugar behind?

I'm told it will rinse the sugars just fine. From what I understand the reason we use warm water is to stop conversion and to keep our wort closer to boiling temp, so it doesn't take as long to reach a boil. The only problem with this is, depending on pH, the higher temps can extract tannins. So, using room temp water has a lesser chance of extracting tannins, still rinses sugars just fine, and still stops conversion. The only draw back is that your wort will be a lower temp, and it will take a little longer to reach a boil. I don't really mind it taking longer, myself. If you don't have to heat sparge water then you save time and energy (fuel), so it's kind of the same difference.... I've spoken to a well known brewer on this forum about it, and he has very good results with this method....

 

[Stauffbier]

So I brewed a milk stout today. It was a last minute idea since work got canceled this morning, so I didn't have a chance to cold steep my dark grains as planned. I decided to add them late in the mash instead. I added them in the last 10 minutes of the mash and then I sparged. I sparged cold for the first time. Did a double batch sparge with room temp water. I managed 74% efficiency. I usually get 79% with a typical hot sparge, so I'm happy with that. The wort had a beautiful color, just like you would expect for a stout. It tasted magnificent! I can't wait to see how it turns out! Cheers!

 

[BrewThruYou]

I'm told it will rinse the sugars just fine. From what I understand the reason we use warm water is to stop conversion and to keep our wort closer to boiling temp, so it doesn't take as long to reach a boil. The only problem with this is, depending on pH, the higher temps can extract tannins. So, using room temp water has a lesser chance of extracting tannins, still rinses sugars just fine, and still stops conversion.

These two statements seem contradictory:

"the reason we use warm water is to stop conversion"
"using room temp water...still stops conversion."

 

[BBL_Brewer]

These two statements seem contradictory:

"the reason we use warm water is to stop conversion"
"using room temp water...still stops conversion."

They do if you split hairs, but I see what he is saying. Raising the temp will denature the enzymes thereby stopping conversion. Doing a cold sparge will lower the temp below the enzymes optimal range thereby drastically slowing conversion which pretty much accomplishes the same thing in the scale of time we are looking at here.

 

[pjj2ba]

Stops is probably too strong a word, but the reaction rates for the enzymes are substantially lower at tap water temperatures compared to typical mash teperatures. So not stopped, but pretty darn slow.

 

[helibrewer]

I have started adding any sugars and my steeping grain liquor to the boil with 5 minutes remaining. I essentially boil with only base grains and hops. The cold sparge sounds like a very interesting idea since I use a small HLT that really is just my heat exchanger for my HERMs...it solves the problem of heating my sparge water in the BK.

 

[Stauffbier]

These two statements seem contradictory:

"the reason we use warm water is to stop conversion"
"using room temp water...still stops conversion."

It does come across that way. Sorry. What I mean is any temp above or below typical mash temps will stop (or slow) conversion. I think people choose to use higher temps because of the belief that it increases efficiency and puts you closer to boiling temp.

 

[Stauffbier]

I have started adding any sugars and my steeping grain liquor to the boil with 5 minutes remaining. I essentially boil with only base grains and hops. The cold sparge sounds like a very interesting idea since I use a small HLT that really is just my heat exchanger for my HERMs...it solves the problem of heating my sparge water in the BK.

I have to admit it was really nice just dumping room temp water in there. Saves time and energy. The temperature of my wort after sparging was about 118F, and it didn't seem to really take that much longer to get to a boil than it normally does.

 

[rcrabb22]

I have used the cold steep method of dark grains 2 times now for my oatmeal stout. I used Gordon Strong's ratio of 2qt cold water to 1lb of grain in a very large glass bowl. I let the grain steep in a large muslin bag at room temperature for approx 24 hours, dunking like a tea bag every now and then. I let the bag of grain drain over the bowl until it stopped dripping and added the very dark liquid to the last 15 min of the boil. He actually states this liquid is stable and could be added directly to the fermentation vessel but I felt had to boil it a few minutes for sanitation purposes.

I think the roasted flavors came through very well without any of the harshness I had experienced before in some of my earlier stout attempts. YMMV

 

[steelersrbrun]

So I brewed a milk stout today. It was a last minute idea since work got canceled this morning, so I didn't have a chance to cold steep my dark grains as planned. I decided to add them late in the mash instead. I added them in the last 10 minutes of the mash and then I sparged. I sparged cold for the first time. Did a double batch sparge with room temp water. I managed 74% efficiency. I usually get 79% with a typical hot sparge, so I'm happy with that. The wort had a beautiful color, just like you would expect for a stout. It tasted magnificent! I can't wait to see how it turns out! Cheers!

Post it here and let me know how it goes. The cold sparge isn’t something I will try but now I know to trust in Kai and if I have to, I can sparge in emergency conditions.

I kegged mine yesterday. It's a bit too roasty but that was an obvious error on my end. In short I about tripled my quantities on the chocolate and carafa III. Apparently I’m too poor to pay….pay attention that is;-) I will definitely use this type of dark grain addition again. The late add made my wort jet black….had I used the proper amount I bet it would have been a nice mellow roastiness to it as well. I will post any re-brews here as well but I’m a big fan. Thanks to Jamil and Peter Zien, I late Hop. Now thanks to Gordon I will …umm…late dark grain mash.

 

[Phunhog]

Well time to report back....I used two pounds of Carafa II for 11 gallons of a Black IPA. The Carafa II was added during the last 5 minutes of the mash and during the vorlauf. It gave it a nice dark brown/black color going into the fermentor. Finally tasted it today after dry hopping. OUTSTANDING!!! Exactly what I wanted....a dark IPA with very, very little roastiness. I think if you drank this with your eyes closed you might think you are drinking a "traditional" IPA. No harsh roastiness at all!!

 

[Stauffbier]

Well time to report back....I used two pounds of Carafa II for 11 gallons of a Black IPA. The Carafa II was added during the last 5 minutes of the mash and during the vorlauf. It gave it a nice dark brown/black color going into the fermentor. Finally tasted it today after dry hopping. OUTSTANDING!!! Exactly what I wanted....a dark IPA with very, very little roastiness. I think if you drank this with your eyes closed you might think you are drinking a "traditional" IPA. No harsh roastiness at all!!

Good going! I can't wait to try my stout...

 

[steelersrbrun]

Well time to report back....I used two pounds of Carafa II for 11 gallons of a Black IPA. The Carafa II was added during the last 5 minutes of the mash and during the vorlauf. It gave it a nice dark brown/black color going into the fermentor. Finally tasted it today after dry hopping. OUTSTANDING!!! Exactly what I wanted....a dark IPA with very, very little roastiness. I think if you drank this with your eyes closed you might think you are drinking a "traditional" IPA. No harsh roastiness at all!!

Awesome.......I need to get a re-brew on my oatmeal scheduled.

 

[ResumeMan]

I did the dark grain at vorlauf brewing my most recent stout. I think it came out great. My once concern is that while there is some nice roast character, it appears to be a bit less than how the recipe is described in the linked thread. I suspect that bumping the dark grain amount by ~10% or so may be a good way to go.

 

[Stauffbier]

I did the dark grain at vorlauf brewing my most recent stout. I think it came out great. My once concern is that while there is some nice roast character, it appears to be a bit less than how the recipe is described in the linked thread. I suspect that bumping the dark grain amount by ~10% or so may be a good way to go.

I bumped up my dark grain amount when I tried cold steeping them, but I didn't for the late mash addition...