adding dark grains at vorlauf

[steelersrbrun]

In brewing better beer, Gordon Stong mentions that he adds his darker grains at vorlauf. I am brewing up a stout with some Brown Malt, Carafa III, Pale Chocolate and Chocolate malt. My question is do I mash the Brown and Pale Chocolate and add the others late or do I add all of them at vorlauf?

 

[cheezydemon3]

WTF

That sounds wrong.....unless you vorlauf for a freaking hour and a half.

 

[forstmeister]

For a 5 gallon batch with fly sparging, it should take almost an hour, so I suppose it could work.

 

[steelersrbrun]

WTF

That sounds wrong.....unless you vorlauf for a freaking hour and a half.

Why would it be wrong and why vorlauf for 90 minutes?

 

[pcollins]

Well, it's not wrong and it works.

I've done it where we just add the grains at the end of the Sacc rest and give the grain bed a stir to incorporate the darker grains. Vorlauf and then sparge and you're good to go.

You'll get a bit less astringency from the darker grains this way.

 

[steelersrbrun]

Well, it's not wrong and it works.

I've done it where we just add the grains at the end of the Sacc rest and give the grain bed a stir to incorporate the darker grains. Vorlauf and then sparge and you're good to go.

You'll get a bit less astringency from the darker grains this way.

Didn't think I read that wrong....Mr. Strong kept it simple for folks like me. Any advice on the various grains I am using ?

 

[cheezydemon3]

I read the OP as "dump dry grains on top, vorlauf"

Excuse me, but that is actually a bit different different than "end of sach rest, give a good stir"

 

[HomebrewMTB]

I think a lot depends on mash pH. Darker grains can lower pH too much and cause astringency problems but you can make water adjustments to mitigate this.

I did try adding the dark grains at vorlauf on my last stout and it worked out fine though. Next time, I'm going to try the full mash with chalk addition using the EZ Water calculator and see how it compares.

 

[pcollins]

I read the OP as "dump dry grains on top, vorlauf"

Excuse me, but that is actually a bit different different than "end of sach rest, give a good stir"

True, it is different but the OP didn't say what you read either.

Regardless, if you dumped the dry grains on top and didn't stir you've still got vorlauf and sparging to get colour out of them. A 30-45 minute sparge/lauter is plenty to extract a good amount of colour.

 

[Cromwell]

Isn't the point here that dark grains don't need to do any conversion, so all you're doing is extracting the sugars (and color and flavor) from the dark grains the same as you are from the converted base malt? If vorlauf and sparge is sufficient to extract sugars and flavors in base malt, it's sufficient to do it in any malt. I'd guess that even a batch sparge would be fine.

 

[djt17]

I did this the last time I used Choc Malt, I really liked the result. Much smoother. I put the grains in my vorlauf pitcher, poured over the top of the mash & gave a good stir.

 

[Scooby_Brew]

First of all, you want to add some roasted barley to your recipe to make it a real stout.
As far as adding darker malts during vorlauf, you do it when brewing a dark European lager, but not when making a stout. In stouts you really want to taste the roastiness, that's what makes it a stout.
Add your roasted barley and dark malts right at the beginning when mashing a stout. When mashing a dark lager - at the end. In Dark IPA - it's optional, your call.

 

[cheezydemon3]

meh. maybe I'm being a pooper, but I see no point. Want color but less flavor? food coloring.

 

[BrewThruYou]

meh. maybe I'm being a pooper, but I see no point. Want color but less flavor? food coloring.

Aka Sinamar for beer: http://www.williamsbrewing.com/4-OZ-SINAMAR-NATURAL-BEER-COLORING-P2651.aspx

 

[cheezydemon3]

Aka Sinamar for beer: http://www.williamsbrewing.com/4-OZ-SINAMAR-NATURAL-BEER-COLORING-P2651.aspx

There you go!

Next question?

 

[rockfish42]

It makes it much easier to avoid alka-seltzer tasting dark beer, if you try to use Palmer's spreadsheet for instance on a beer that's fairly dark you have to dump in silly amounts of chalk.
Strong compares a couple of different ways of using dark grains in his book, but the gist of the idea is dark grains behave similarly to coffee. He backs this up by mentioning some experiments Briess did with different roasted malts. Nobody would drink coffee that was brewed for an hour, or sat on a hot plate that long. Adding the darker grains at vorlauf assuming you hit your mash pH is especially helpful if you're fly sparging. The added acidity will help the mash stay where you want it and avoid extracting tannins.
I mostly trust that Gordon isn't yanking our chains, and to get back to the OP's question, in that recipe according to his theory you'd only mash the pale and add the brown, chocolate, carafa, and pale chocolate at at vorlauf. With one caveat he always conducts a mash out for 10-15 minutes which would essentially be steeping the grains as if you were making an extract batch.

I've just spent the morning obsessing about a Tmave 12 I'm doing for a wedding and thinking of the same question.

 

[corax]

Another point is that Strong recommends this method specifically for dark styles where you don't want sharp roasty flavors -- eg, sweet stouts, schwartzbier, maybe brown ales. It may not be the best method for dry stouts or robust porters.

 

[Phunhog]

Another point is that Strong recommends this method specifically for dark styles where you don't want sharp roasty flavors -- eg, sweet stouts, schwartzbier, maybe brown ales. It may not be the best method for dry stouts or robust porters.

I plan on using this method next week for my Black IPA. I will be using Carafa II and don't want any roasted flavors, or at least very minimal. I will add the Carafa II during at the end of my mash and for the infusion sparge.

 

[Stauffbier]

Sounds like it's time for an experiment! Rockfish42 sold me with the coffee comment.

 

[Pappers_]

I've used this method with success when making an Irish Red.

 

[Calichusetts]

I'm pretty sure I remember reading about this in Radical Brewing...its a great way to get the color you want without the negative affects the malt can cause the taste

 

[Stauffbier]

I wonder if you could get the best of both worlds by adding the dark grains to the last 10 or 15 mins of the mash?!..

 

[Brew-boy]

Some people do it to get the dark color without the roast flavor.

 

[GarageBeerGarden]

You still get the roast flavor, though albeit not as intense, but as one poster commented earlier, the idea is to avoid extracting the tannins and harsher flavors you get with prolonged exposure. When you dunk a tea bag into hot water, it still tastes like tea even if you remove it after only a short time, right? Yes it's weaker, but it won't be bitter and astringent like it is if you leave the bag in the whole time. The same concept applies here too.

 

[bumstigedy]

So if you are batch sparging, when do you add the dark grains?

Last weekend I brewed an American brown ale and added the chocolate malt and crystal 120 with 15 min left in the mash. This exposed the dark grains to hot water for about 30 min after doing a mash out and batch sparging.

Went with distiller water with minimal salt additions for the mash since I didn't have the dark grains to worry about.

 

[pcollins]

It shouldn't matter if you're batch sparging, fly sparging or any combination therein. You can add the grains at the end of the mash before vorlauf.

 

[barrooze]

So if you are batch sparging, when do you add the dark grains?

Last weekend I brewed an American brown ale and added the chocolate malt and crystal 120 with 15 min left in the mash. This exposed the dark grains to hot water for about 30 min after doing a mash out and batch sparging.

Went with distiller water with minimal salt additions for the mash since I didn't have the dark grains to worry about.

I'd love to hear how this turned out for you. Did you stir the mash after adding the dark grains? I've been toying with this method as well, but wasn't sure how well it'd do with batch sparging (which I do). I think doing a mash out with this method is a really good idea too.

 

[BBL_Brewer]

When I make stouts, I don't add dark grains to the mash at all. Instead, I steep them in the wort after I combine all the runnings in the BK. Makes a much smoother tasting beer. I imagine you would get similar results adding them to the mash right before lauter, in fact I've been meaning to try it that way, would cut some time off brewday. The first stout I made I mashed everything and it came out with a very harsh bitterness. And if you're not getting the roastiness you want using this method, use more grain.

 

[ResumeMan]

I recently did this for an American stout. The main reason was to avoid pushing my mash pH too low, as I have very low alkalinity water.

I mixed in the roast grains after about 45 minutes, and let it sit for maybe 10 before starting the vorlauf. It took a good couple of quarts of vorlauf before the wort I drew from the bottom turned from brown to black, but it did.

Still in the fermenter. I tasted a hydrometer sample. It definitely had a roasty flavor, though that one sample seemed less-so than expected from all the dark grains. But I'll wait to reserve judgment till it's in the keg and carbed. If I remember I'll report back.

 

[bumstigedy]

I recirculate the mash because it is direct fired. After i collected first runnings, I added sparge water and stirred for several minutes.

I'll let you know how it turned out in a few weeks. I have another one brewed the normal way and will bottle some so I can try side by side.