Adding artificial CO2 when bottling for ageing 20 years

[Russian]

Planning to brew RIS for my new born son. The question is if it is recommended or it is not
(1) venting bottle with CO2 before filling and then
(2) adding more CO2 on the top after the filling?

I understand that preserving with CO2 is a good idea for commercial beer which should be consumed in several months but I have doubts about improvement of taste for 20 years ageing if oxygen is completely locked off.

Could you please share your opinion on that. I was thinking of buying a beer gun if it is most likely to be better for my long aged RIS.

 

[MrPowers]

I would bottle carbonate a beer that you're going to be aging that long.

Otherwise, using a beer gun completely purge the bottle with CO2, fill it up until foam is coming out the top, then cap on the foam.

 

[Warthaug]

Long aged beers are a challenge, and oxygen is your enemy. I've tried bottling in many ways, and in my experience (and consistent with advice found in many books) is that bottle conditioning is best as the active yeast will scavenge any residual oxygen. Counterfilling, in my experience, is OK for beers only being stored for a few years, but I've never had one that was good after ~5 years aging*. My oldest bottle conditioned beer is over 10 years old, and while it peaked at ~8 years, it is still a very good beer.

*one exception to this was a barley wine aged with brett, but the brett was active in the bottle so the beer was pseudo-bottle conditioned.

I've tried pre-purging bottles with CO2 prior to bottle conditioning. I'm not convinced it did anything extra, but for a beer aged for 20 years it may provide an edge.

In my opinion, waxing the caps helps. I ran out of wax when bottling a quad, and the unwaxed bottles developed aging flavours faster than the waxed bottles - a sign on oxidation.

Lastly, storage will be critical for your beer. Once it is carbed you will want to store it cool, and minimze temperature fluctuations. There's a lot of good articles on cellering wine; the advice they give (other than bottle orientation) is as valid for ling-aged beers as it is for wine.

Good luck!

B

 

[Russian]

Guys, thanks for your advice!

Is there any recommendation on the tool for CO2 purging? Is beer gun the best option for 50l brewing powers?

How about bottles and caps? I was thinking of waxed swing top Growler

But I am concerned about rubber/silicone washers.
Would you think champagne bottle with wooden cork be a better choice?

 

[Warthaug]

Growlers don't have a good reputation for sealing properly. The swing tops may be better, but for 20 years a proper crown top is the way to go

 

[eulipion2]

I'm reading this like your beer is in a keg and is going to be pushed into bottles. If I'm correct on that, why not just leave it in the keg? Sure, you're sacrificing a keg to the cause, and you'll need to check on it from time to time to make sure the o-rings aren't drying out/the keg isn't leaking, but it's worth considering.

 

[Russian]

I am using Chronical Fermenter Brewmaster Edition.

It is capable to handle pressured transfer (never tried though).

"sacrificing a keg"
Are you suggesting beer will store better if left in a keg for 20 years than in bottles?

"make sure the o-rings aren't drying out/the keg isn't leaking"
But there is not much I can do about it without spoiling the beer on the way to 20 years ageing isn't it?

"The swing tops may be better, but for 20 years a proper crown top is the way to go"
The growlers I was thinking to use are with swing tops (as on the picture). Would you think crown caps not get rusted over time? Or what are the "proper crown top" ?

 

[Redlantern]

New to aging beer and have only read about it - so this is not a question based on experience.

Out of curiosity, would storage in a Sanke keg be a good way to go? Keg condition with Brett for carb instead of artificial? It just seems that the head space relative to the volume of liquid would be favorable. Addtionally, it also seems that Nor-Cal or similar could modify a cap for the express purpose of sealing that thing up long-term. Granted, storage would be trickier at this point due to size, but would that not provide a more stable storage solution over a 20-year span?

 

[jddevinn]

CO2 is "99% pure" however I'd worry about that 1% (and air picked up during bottling) for a beer that is aged this long. DO is going to need to be VERY low, likely to commercial standards of <0.2ppm.

I'd look into bottle carbing in champagne style bottles with cages. Or in regular 22oz bottles, normal caps and dipped in wax.

 

[sfish]

I have some 19 year old bottled beer,it now has a sherry like profile. I would suggest you tweak your recipe to make it malty meaning having a good amount of complex sugars, increase the bitterness by 50%ish, bottle carb in large bottles such as suggested champagne bottles and over carb. And make sure it attenuated before bottling. I would not bottle from keg of age in keg, there is too little yeast to help age and develope "time flavors "

perhasp use coffee

 

[Russian]

..over carb. And make sure it attenuated before bottling..

Sorry I am not quite getting you. Can you clarify the above please?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Sorry I am not quite getting you. Can you clarify the above please?

I "think" he is suggesting the over carb to help scrub out potential oxygen. And he is warning against under attenuation to ward off bottle bombs.

You could also consider wax sealing the bottles.

 

[Russian]

I "think" he is suggesting the over carb to help scrub out potential oxygen. And he is warning against under attenuation to ward off bottle bombs.

You could also consider wax sealing the bottles.

Over carbonate with priming sugar? Or try to dissolve as much as possible artificial CO2 in the beer before bottling?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Over carbonate with priming sugar? Or try to dissolve as much as possible artificial CO2 in the beer before bottling?

What is this "artificial CO2"?

CO2 is CO2. Bottled CO2 is simply concentrated from the atmosphere. There is no synthetic CO2.

Keg carbonated is what I think" he is suggesting.

 

[sfish]

yes Gila is correct you do not want bottle bombs. So make sure the yeast is finished before bottling and use priming sugar. This gives the residual yeast in the bottle something to eat before going to sleep for 20 years.

I would use DME for priming

Also I would use some 6 row as base malt. I have read and do not remember the sorce that this ages better than 2 row.

When you pour use a large glass and pour down the middle to release the co2 before drinking I say large glass because there may be a large head just let it settle (remember this in twenty years)

 

[55x11]

What is this "artificial CO2"?

CO2 is CO2. Bottled CO2 is simply concentrated from the atmosphere. There is no synthetic CO2.

Keg carbonated is what I think" he is suggesting.

I think he means CO2 produced by the yeast vs. CO2 from the tank.

I think some styles will benefit a bit from aging with small amount of residual oxygen. In that sense, yeast conditioned beers are probably better as they will have more interesting development of flavor over time - adding sherry type flavors. With too much oxygen you may get a bit of "cardboard" flavor too but in small quantities and in some styles it's not necessarily that bad.

For filling bottles from a keg, I would use Blichman beer gun. Very nice design and very easy to use.

I am not sure champaign bottles with corks/cages or wax seal are necessary here. Those can handle higher pressure, but if you are properly carbonating and have no infection, the pressure shouldn't be much higher for long term aging than for any other bottled beer. For russian imperial stouts and other stouts, you may need to carb them more lightly, to 2.0 volumes or below. By all means make sure fermentation is completely finished (people often keep beers in for 6-8 weeks or more in "secondary" - one of the few times it may be necessary) and be extra careful with sanitation - any small number of brett or bacteria can eat the long chain sugars over time, causing bottle bombs.

Wax sealed bottles are of course nice for presentation purposes - I doubt it makes much difference for the seal. Make sure you use brown bottles. Store them at around 50-60F, "cellar" temperatures, away from direct sunlight. Avoid frequent temperature swings.

20 years of aging is a long time. I would make alcohol >10-11% ABV and make it dark, roasty beer.

 

[Russian]

What is this "artificial CO2"?

CO2 is CO2. Bottled CO2 is simply concentrated from the atmosphere. There is no synthetic CO2.

Keg carbonated is what I think" he is suggesting.

Sorry for confusion. I meant added artificially from CO2 bottle or generated naturally by yeast. I do understand there is no difference in CO2, just trying to figure out the method how it is suggested to be added..

I am not planning to use a keg. I will be transferring directly from pressured fermenter/bottling bucket. So the point was to make sure there is no air/oxygen in the container from which I am siphoning to bottles. Got it! Cheers!

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

The suggestion has been to bottle prime after the beer is assured to be fully attenuated thus avoiding bottle bomb potential.

Bottle carbing should potentially use up any oxygen entrained during transfers.

 

[Russian]

The suggestion has been to bottle prime after the beer is assured to be fully attenuated thus avoiding bottle bomb potential.

Bottle carbing should potentially use up any oxygen entrained during transfers.

ah, ok. got ya.
basically the suggestion is to avoid any contact with oxygen at any cost and let beer to be fully attenuated before bottling.

 

[Russian]

When you pour use a large glass and pour down the middle to release the co2 before drinking I say large glass because there may be a large head just let it settle (remember this in twenty years)

I'd need to engrave it somewhere

 

[eulipion2]

"sacrificing a keg"
Are you suggesting beer will store better if left in a keg for 20 years than in bottles?

Anecdotally, yes. I've tried a couple beers from each camp, and the kegged beers held up much better than the crown caps. Of course, the people who had the kegs had a few dedicated refrigerators in their garage that kept the beers temp controlled for all that time, so they were very well taken care of.

"make sure the o-rings aren't drying out/the keg isn't leaking"
But there is not much I can do about it without spoiling the beer on the way to 20 years ageing isn't it?

Checking for leaks is pretty easy (Star-San sprayed at the connections, look for bubbling). If you notice a leak, changing an o-ring should be fairly easy. Just keep flushing with CO2 while you change the rings. You'll probably get better o-ring longevity if you switch to silicone o-rings.

Either way, leaks shouldn't really be much of a problem if you keep the beer in a fairly stable environment, but I'd say it's easier to test a leaky o-ring than a leaky crown cap.

If you do decide to bottle, I second what another poster said: consider coating the caps/necks in wax.

 

[Jwin]

All of the above, but I would bottle the uncarbed beer from a fully purged keg(pushed out starsan) and skip the bottling bucket all together, skipping o2 exposure that comes with it.

Beer in the liquid out post while depressing the poppet/prv.

How to prime, you ask? Use your bottling bucket spigot, in through the same post. Yes, a bit of o2 there, but far less than a bottling bucket.