Acid addition question...

[thorn_bird]

Recently listening to Palmer about water.
He says when building from distilled you can add salts at mash for mash volume of water, skip the sparge addition, and add the rest to the kettle (total boil volume minus mash volume)...
My question..
If I add lactic acid to dial in a mash pH of 5.2 to 5.3 (at room temp.) Will I also need to add more acid in the kettle pre boil?
The style is cream ale if that makes a difference. Any help is greatly appreciated.

 

[thorn_bird]

I'm also still confused and shocked at how many of the water experts we look to for advice can't seem to agree on whether the 5.2 to 5.4 range for a pale beer should be 5.2 at room temp (meaning 4.9 to 5.0 at mash temp), or 5.2 at mash temp (meaning 5.4 to 5.5 at room temp). I've spent much of the night combing through many respected sources and the opinion are all over the place. I've even found instances in which people have even contradicted themselves on this issues at different times. So, today I will brew still with no good idea as to what my mash pH should be for a cream ale...

 

[mgortel]

I use Bru'n Water spreadsheet. Do google search and go to site....download spreadsheet and read everything on site to learn about water chemistry and pH adjustment.

Using the spreadsheet you can calculate your pH and can calculate how much acid to add......among other additives

I use it all the time and puts me right in the proper pH range.

I add my acid to the strike water before I heat it........I never have had to adjust the mash pH in process...it comes out fine every time......but remember you will need to cool your sample from the mash before you check the pH

Most important though is that you know your starting water chemistry....if you are using distilled water then you start with a blank slate....if using filtered (to remove Chlorine) tap water...you will wnat to send that out to get tested.

 

[mabrungard]

I'm curious who you are considering an expert if they are recommending pH results at mashing temperature? As you point out, there is a chemically-caused shift in pH when measuring room and mashing temperatures. Since cycling a pH probe from room temp to mashing temp and back does reduce its life, I've long recommended that all brewers standardize at measuring mash pH on a room-temperature wort sample. In addition, mashing pH is a subjective parameter. While most brewers have found that they prefer beers brewed at room temp pH's in the range of 5.2 to 5.6, it is you who ultimately decides that a certain pH is what you prefer. Standardizing at a room-temp measurement just gives you a repeatable benchmark from which to measure and assess.

With regard to adding mineral additions to the kettle, you don't need to add more acid with those additions since you were starting with very low alkalinity water (RO or distilled). The kettle volume was produced by adding sparging or top-off water to the mash wort and that sparging water doesn't have much ability to alter the wort pH that was already established in the mash.

The other technique that I've found to be very useful when brewing light lagers, is to add all the hardness minerals for the entire water batches to the mashing water. This is for those beers that are best brewed with low mineralized water. Adding all the hardness minerals to the mash, boosts the calcium content higher in the mash where that calcium can help precipitate oxalate from the wort. When hardness-free sparging water is added to the batch, the overall mineral content is diluted. Low mineralization better enables delicate malt flavors to exhibit. The supporter's version of Bru'n Water has a tool specially designed for this technique.

 

[ajdelange]

Recently listening to Palmer about water.
He says when building from distilled you can add salts at mash for mash volume of water, skip the sparge addition, and add the rest to the kettle (total boil volume minus mash volume)...
My question..
If I add lactic acid to dial in a mash pH of 5.2 to 5.3 (at room temp.) Will I also need to add more acid in the kettle pre boil?

No. But 5.2 - 5.3 is getting kind of low on the mash pH. 5.4 - 5.5 or even 5.6 would be more reasonable (all at room temperature - it's always at room temperature despite what your experts say unless, of course, it is explicitly stated that it is at another temperature).

Why is this: acids supply protons. Base malts absorb protons (but that's not why they are called base malts which is because they are the basis of the beer). Water absorbs protons based on its alkalinity. Malts absorb protons depending on the type of malt and the pH at which you want them to end up. If they absorb more protons pH will be lower than if they absorb fewer.

Distilled/RO water contains no (or very little) alkalinity and thus require so few protons to shift to mash pH that their proton (acid) requirement can be neglected.

 

[thorn_bird]

Thank you both for the responses! I did recently become a supporter and have the most recent version, though I am still playing with it a bit and getting used to it. I was more familiar with the brewers friend calculator, so for today I used that. I will be changing over soon.
The funny thing is, and I say this honestly with all due respect. YOU are the experts in my mind. You, Kai, AJ, Palmer, etc.
I fully understand that the range is a tool to be used and dialed in based on taste and preference, but for someone who is fairly new to the world of brewing water I'm having a hard time distinguishing what pH at room temp I should be shooting for. I have heard Palmer say 5.2 to 5.4 for pale beers, but then say it would be higher at room temp., Kai say 5.3 at room temp., and in this thread you gave a range of 5.2 to 5.6 at room temp and AJ said 5.2 to 5.3 is too low. I am simply having a hard time finding a target to use as a jumping off point.
So I brewed a cream ale today...built the water from distilled, added about .75 mL of lactic to the mash and came out with a pH at room temp. of 5.29. At this point I'm not sure whether that's good or bad, but I guess that is my official jumping off point lol. After sparge and kettle additions, the pre boil pH at room temp was 5.34. I am hoping that will be okay.
I would also like to say thank you so much to the both of you for helping brewers everywhere. I read many of your posts all the time and feel I can take them as solid advice. It has only been the pH subject that I feel needs more clarification for us newbies to water.

 

[ajdelange]

It has only been the pH subject that I feel needs more clarification for us newbies to water.

Every couple of years the Catholic University of Louvaine (Belgium) holds a conference in memory of Jean DeClerck (his son is the host) who taught there for many years. This is attended by brewers (including the giants), academics and brewing related industrialists from all over the world. In 2004 the title of the meeting was "The pH Paradox in the Malting and the Brewing Process". Guess what the paradox is? You already know. The point being that it isn't only newbies who would like more definite answers.

 

[thorn_bird]

Every couple of years the Catholic University of Louvaine (Belgium) holds a conference in memory of Jean DeClerck (his son is the host) who taught there for many years. This is attended by brewers (including the giants), academics and brewing related industrialists from all over the world. In 2004 the title of the meeting was "The pH Paradox in the Malting and the Brewing Process". Guess what the paradox is? You already know. The point being that it isn't only newbies who would like more definite answers.

Ahh, I see. Well that makes me feel a bit better...I suppose I've just finally stumbled upon one of the slightly "gray" areas in brewing. I guess at this point, I'll just taste the beer, take good notes and adjust to taste. Again, thank you for your response...it is greatly appreciated.