Accidental Sour Questions

[mythicbearcat]

Hi all,

I am new at homebrewing (2nd extract kit) and seem to have an infection on my hands. On the 21st I opened my bucket and added some whiskey-soaked vanilla beans to my stout. Everything looked normal at that point. On the 2nd I went to take a hydrometer reading and there was a film growing along with some bubbles and leftover krausen (1st pic). Today's reading remained the same (1.010) and but now the pellicle looks much more developed (2nd pic). The beer tastes pretty good-a little like tart cherries with a very small amount of carbonation.

My BF likes the taste and wants me to bottle now. I however, want to wait it out. I started homebrew because I wanted to make sours, I just figured that I should learn the fundamentals first, you know like sanitation...:smack: Anyway, my idea is to divert 1-2 gal to some glass jugs for aging, while bottling the rest. That way I can keep the pipeline going (we live in a small apartment) while still having a chance to experiment. I have a few questions:

For the beer that I am bottling, what can I do to avoid bottle bombs? Do I still prime the bottles? Is there a way of decreasing the bacteria/yeast count?

As for the experimental batch, is there a way to improve on the taste other than to just leave it be for a year? Do I need to refeed it some juice?

Really, any advice would be greatly appreciated. I have been trying to read about accidental sours, but most of the advice seems to be along the lines of "dont do it."

 

[crane]

When dealing with wild yeast, you don't want to bottle until you have a stable gravity. The consensus for how long to wait varies from person to person but 2 months is a good time frame. If you don't see it changing for that long then you are pretty sure everything is done doing what is going to do. The problem is you don't know where it will stop at, especially with wild yeast. It could be done now or it could go all the way to 1.000.

As for long term aging, no need to add anything. The wild yeast and bacteria will continue to chew on things even after the gravity stops dropping. The biggest concern for long term aging is exposure to oxygen. Use glass instead of plastic and leave very little head space. Don't forget about the bottles for months and let the air locks dry out.

I bottled a barrel aged Russian imperial stout this summer that got infected. It fermented all the way down to 1.001 making it 12%. It's still pretty good for how dry it is. It has a slight funky Brett character to it. I say go for it cautiously and patiently. If you are planning on brewing sour beers then navigating these waters will be routine.

I think you are on the right path with regards to getting your feet wet with clean beers first. Even with sour beers you need to have good sanitation practices.

 

[TheMadKing]

+1 to everything crane said, especially the part about oxygen and reducing head space. You need to get it out of that bucket ASAP. Your pellicle looks like a lacto infection to me, but judging by the pellicle is very inaccurate.

You can control the rate of fermentation to some extent with temperature. Lacto likes 100F or so, but will continue to work very slowly at room temperature. You could need to age it in secondary for months before you hit terminal gravity.

Just watch your gravity, and keep your fingers crossed that you don't have acetobacter (vinegar) or buteryc acid in there, as those will render a beer undrinkable. If you can bring yourself to taste it, go for it and see if it tastes good. If it tastes nasty, I would just throw it out and try again.

Best of luck!

 

[mythicbearcat]

Ok, thanks for your help. I don't have enough jugs to fit the entire batch and would probably get a lot of evaporative loss that way anyway. When I have the car on wednesday, I'll go to the lhbs to pick up a 5gal glass carboy. Probably a good idea anyway, I like checking in on my ferments and it has been really hard to stop myself from lifting the lid, haha.

In terms of temperature, is it better to try to keep it cool, or will the beer be able to handle temperature spikes?

 

[divrack]

I'd agree with what's been said above but I don't see there a problem in bottling it to age a bit. You can check regularly to see if it's building up gas, and if not just prime as.
If you bottle with zero head space you can catch the worst infections such as aceto and it's generally good for other sour infections. Having said that by all means get a glass carboy and stick it in there but I don't see how you'll keep the o2 out unless you have gas.
I'd fill a few bottles to the very top, don't prime and then call them and put them in a strong box and have one bottle to check periodically. You're not likely to have anything go off straight away and if the pressure is building you can pretty of the cap without bending it and put it back on which will be enough to keep the o2 out but still let co2 escape.
I cannot be held liable for minor explosions...
Wear oven mitts and snowboard goggles when serving your beers.
Beer can be exciting.

 

[crane]

I'd agree with what's been said above but I don't see there a problem in bottling it to age a bit. You can check regularly to see if it's building up gas, and if not just prime as.
If you bottle with zero head space you can catch the worst infections such as aceto and it's generally good for other sour infections. Having said that by all means get a glass carboy and stick it in there but I don't see how you'll keep the o2 out unless you have gas.
I'd fill a few bottles to the very top, don't prime and then call them and put them in a strong box and have one bottle to check periodically. You're not likely to have anything go off straight away and if the pressure is building you can pretty of the cap without bending it and put it back on which will be enough to keep the o2 out but still let co2 escape.
I cannot be held liable for minor explosions...
Wear oven mitts and snowboard goggles when serving your beers.
Beer can be exciting.

This is stupid advice. One should never take a chance with bottle bombs. I've had a few experiences with them over the years and you can not predict when an over carbonated bottle will explode. I had a close call the first time where I heard a bottle crack and start fizzing all over so I walked over to the box and looked inside cause I didn't know what was happening. As I opened the box the top half of another bottle broke off and shot up like a rocket. It skimmed the hair on my forehead before it hit the ceiling then shot down the hallway another 10 feet. If my head was another few inches over the top of the box I could have had a nasty black eye or worse.

Also what is the point of bottling if you aren't going to prime and carbonate it? Might as well just bulk age the beer in one vessel and take samples periodically. Also bottling beer only to find out it didn't carbonate and then adding priming sugar and recapping is a huge PIA. Not to mention a waste of caps.

Bulk age it until it's stable and ready for bottling.

 

[divrack]

This is stupid advice. One should never take a chance with bottle bombs. I've had a few experiences with them over the years and you can not predict when an over carbonated bottle will explode. I had a close call the first time where I heard a bottle crack and start fizzing all over so I walked over to the box and looked inside cause I didn't know what was happening. As I opened the box the top half of another bottle broke off and shot up like a rocket. It skimmed the hair on my forehead before it hit the ceiling then shot down the hallway another 10 feet. If my head was another few inches over the top of the box I could have had a nasty black eye or worse.

Also what is the point of bottling if you aren't going to prime and carbonate it? Might as well just bulk age the beer in one vessel and take samples periodically. Also bottling beer only to find out it didn't carbonate and then adding priming sugar and recapping is a huge PIA. Not to mention a waste of caps.

Bulk age it until it's stable and ready for bottling.

i guess you didn't read my post.
1, if you keep a bottle to check if its carbonating you have no chance of getting a bomb. its not going to go from no gas to explosive in a couple of days. especially with whatever random bug is in it and no readily fermentable sugar.
2, its no waste of caps. as i mentioned if you prize of the caps in the manner of opening them from the bottom a la using a knife of disposable lighter or whatever, the caps are perfectly reusable. i hardly ever buy caps for this reason. waste not, etc.
3. the point of bottling without priming is [1] the op said they didnt have much storage space or equipment, so it frees up her gear etc, [2] it allows you to get the o2 completely out if you do as i said, thus potentially stopping the bug from developing if its aceto. (i know ive done this before) and [3] if it is some dodgy nasty in it you can just sling the bottles and not have to worry about another potentially infected expensive fermentor.
By all means bulk age. but if its aceto itll be ruined, and they will need to go buy stuff. i was just giving options.
Sounds like you got yourself a wee scare one time and its clouding your judgement

 

[divrack]

This is stupid advice. One should never take a chance with bottle bombs. I've had a few experiences with them over the years and you can not predict when an over carbonated bottle will explode. I had a close call the first time where I heard a bottle crack and start fizzing all over so I walked over to the box and looked inside cause I didn't know what was happening. As I opened the box the top half of another bottle broke off and shot up like a rocket. It skimmed the hair on my forehead before it hit the ceiling then shot down the hallway another 10 feet. If my head was another few inches over the top of the box I could have had a nasty black eye or worse.

Also what is the point of bottling if you aren't going to prime and carbonate it? Might as well just bulk age the beer in one vessel and take samples periodically. Also bottling beer only to find out it didn't carbonate and then adding priming sugar and recapping is a huge PIA. Not to mention a waste of caps.

Bulk age it until it's stable and ready for bottling.

i guess you didn't read my post.
1, if you keep a bottle to check if its carbonating you have no chance of getting a bomb. its not going to go from no gas to explosive in a couple of days. especially with whatever random bug is in it and no readily fermentable sugar.
2, its no waste of caps. as i mentioned if you prize of the caps in the manner of opening them from the bottom a la using a knife of disposable lighter or whatever, the caps are perfectly reusable. i hardly ever buy caps for this reason. waste not, etc.
3. the point of bottling without priming is [1] the op said they didnt have much storage space or equipment, so it frees up her gear etc, [2] it allows you to get the o2 completely out if you do as i said, thus potentially stopping the bug from developing if its aceto. (i know ive done this before) and [3] if it is some dodgy nasty in it you can just sling the bottles and not have to worry about another potentially infected expensive fermentor.
By all means bulk age. but if its aceto itll be ruined, and they will need to go buy stuff. i was just giving options.
Sounds like you got yourself a wee scare one time and its clouding your judgement

 

[TheMadKing]

sling the bottles and not have to worry about another potentially infected expensive fermentor.
By all means bulk age. but if its aceto itll be ruined, and they will need to go buy stuff. i was just giving options.

IMO that's more of a waste of time and money than just bulk aging. If the glass carboy is sized appropriately, as it should always be for sours, you should have no headspace. Fill it right to the very top of the neck.

Reusing caps in not advisable either. Every time you pry up a cap and reuse it, you deform it slightly (maybe not even visibly) but you reduce the sealing ability of the lid and will end up with oxidized beer eventually, which is precisely what you're attempting to avoid in this situation.

Acetobacter will absolutely not ruin your equipment, you just need to bleach it and rinse very very well to get it clean.

Why bother will all the extra work and checking for bottle bombs (which can embed glass in walls btw.. glad I wasn't home for that) when you can avoid the possibility at all. Would you smoke a cigarette while pumping gasoline? what if you just stand further away? It's not that risky, but why risk it at all when it's perfectly easy to avoid?