abnormally long conversion times

[Schmoltsbeer]

I have been brewing almost a year, most of the time all grain. I have noticed abnormally long conversion mash times when I test with iodine. I started mashing with Acid malt, after a couple of long brew days, and it seems to help. It is definitely not a total fix, though, so maybe that's not the issue. I am aware that the iodine test isn't fool proof. Does anyone have any insight why my conversion times are so long, or has anyone ever experienced lagging conversion times before?

I hope this is legible. I 'm half lit.

 

[RM-MN]

How long does it take for conversion? I mill my grain very fine since I BIAB and have tested with iodine to find conversion is complete at 3 minutes or less. If yours is taking a lot longer to convert, look to the quality of your milling. Big pieces of grain take much longer to convert. If you mill your own, set your mill tighter. If you have your LHBS mill for you, ask for double milled. If they refuse, buy your own mill and get your supplies elsewhere.

 

[Schmoltsbeer]

I will try milling more fine in the future, that's a good idea. I have a mill set to .33, but I have issues with periodic stuck sparged occasionally also so I am afraid to close it too far. I like making bread with the spent grain so I avoid rice hulls. Maybe I just have problems!! Haha!

 

[RM-MN]

I will try milling more fine in the future, that's a good idea. I have a mill set to .33, but I have issues with periodic stuck sparged occasionally also so I am afraid to close it too far. I like making bread with the spent grain so I avoid rice hulls. Maybe I just have problems!! Haha!

You don't have to use the rice hulls to avoid a stuck sparge. The rice hulls just help make a filter so if you have another method of filtering, you can mill finer and avoid the rice hulls and the stuck sparge. Several people have mentioned using a paint strainer bag or a bag made of a fine weave such as Swiss Voille curtian material in their mash tun. If it refuses to drain, they just lift the bag to create more filter area. It's a cheap fix for a stuck sparge.

 

[Schmoltsbeer]

Not that anyone should care, but I've done some reading today. I happened to find earlier a malt analysis of Avangard Pilsner malt, which happens to be the malt I've used for the passed several months (mostly because it's cheap, but I kind of like it too) stating for diastatic power it has a measurement of at least 220 degrees WK, which after conversion found here htttp://beersmith.com/blog/2010/01/04/diastatic-power-and-mashing-your-beer/
comes out to about a minimum of 68 degrees lintner. That being said, this is fairly low, which means in terms of using a whole lot of base malts you may have the dickens to wait for conversion! Like I said, I have been using Avangard Pilsner Malt for about 6 months. Pretty much since I started AG brewing, but not completely.. I believe it is the source of my discontent, because of the huge amount of time and energy it takes to get this malt to do what some other malts do. I have noticed a huge amount of time taken to get full conversion as tested on a iodine test, and on a couple of brews lately incomplete conversion measured by a higher-than-predicted FG. This is just this is my analysis of my results, but I believe I will acquire an alternative malt in the future.... Once this malt is gone, of course. I am not hurried on my brewing days, but I have noticed up toe 3 hours or so for conversion (as tested with iodine, on chalk) and I just can't believe it's user error at this point.

One caveat, higher OG's with Avangard Pilsner is common. I use Brewersfriend.com and according the this software I am getting often between 75-80 percent conversion. Sometimes more.

 

[agrazela]

Do you measure mash ph? Is your water alkaline?

Pilsner malt does not bring ph down very much. If acid malt is helping, this suggests to me you may be high out of ph range for optimal enzyme activity.

 

[jtratcliff]

Throw in a handful or two of two row. You'll get the Pilsen qualities you're after but get the benefit of the extra diastatic power of the well modified 2row.

Might be worth a try to swap out a pound on your next brew to see what happens.

 

[Schmoltsbeer]

I do not know my water report, I also don't have a PH meter. This is definitely my top two priorities as funds become available. I am brewing a batch in the morning that I will supplement 1# of 2-row into instead of just pils as the base and test that for conversion time. I won't use acid malt, this time just for this test. I'll post here afterwards with results on time taken to achieve tested conversion, via iodine test.

 

[jfr1111]

I do not know my water report, I also don't have a PH meter. This is definitely my top two priorities as funds become available. I am brewing a batch in the morning that I will supplement 1# of 2-row into instead of just pils as the base and test that for conversion time. I won't use acid malt, this time just for this test. I'll post here afterwards with results on time taken to achieve tested conversion, via iodine test.

You can "rough" out a water analysis using a 10$ aquarium test kit to check for GH and KH: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=At_home_water_testing. Plugging those two numbers in a spreadsheet can give you an idea of the mineral contents of your water, as related to pH.

I basically just use that, a spreadhseet that calaculates mash pH and strips to confirm I'm in the correct range. It IS crude and not very precise, but it gets me in the ballpark. Also, my well water changes from time to time, so plunking 35$ for a water analysis after every change of season isn't feasible for me.

 

[Schmoltsbeer]

I didn't know that, thank you for the information. I will look into acquiring those supplies this coming week for when I brew next weekend. (I like to brew as often as possible.) That could be just the trick I need, instead of worrying about all kinds of crazy reports. I am not really interested in being so ridiculously methodical, I just want to make good beer.

 

[VladOfTrub]

I had a similar problem with Crisp Euro Pils. The malt is under modified, standard protein, Lintner 90. When the mash jelled, enzymatic action slowed way down. I had to extend the alpha rest and step the temp from 155 to 158F to reach conversion. The yield was fantastic. I ran off 22 gallons of wort at 1050 OG corrected, before the run off pH hit 5.8. The grain bill was 30 pounds of Crisp and two pounds of sour malt. The beer finished more like a very good English Lager. The beer aged well and was very clean. I know how to deal with the malt, now.

With a three hour conversion rest, enzymes might have thermally denatured.

Mash pH is important. If mash pH is a couple of points out of the optimum pH range of an enzyme, the enzyme can, slow down or stall and then, it thermally denatures. Beta denatures quickly. After beta denatures, alpha is left.

Here is something to consider and maybe this was part of the problem. When mash pH is at 5.5 or below, mash will begin to gelatinize at 149F. Amylopectin causes the mash to jell up. When mash jells, enzymatic action slows down. If the enzymes denature, amylopectin isn't reduced. Iodine will be purple-blue if amylopectin is in the sample liquid. That's kind of what happened when I used Crisp Pils. Avangard Pils might display similar characteristics.

The next time you do the iodine test, try out this method. Run the sample liquid through a coffee filter, collect a couple of tablespoons of liquid, pour it on a saucer and let it cool down. Place a drop of iodine near the center of the sample and another drop next to the 1st drop without them touching. As the drops of iodine interface, the color shade at the interface indicates whether, the sample contains B-Limit or A-Limit dextrin. (deep red-mahogany)When the iodine color is more to the yellowish orange shade, the wort is balanced. Streaking the iodine through the sample, will disperse the iodine and give a reading, as well.

I was going to try out Avangard Pils, but at the time, their website didn't have the malt data sheet. Without knowing the make-up of the malt, I won't use it. I use Weyermann Boh Pils light and dark floor malt. The malt is under modified and slightly lower in percentage of protein than standard Pils malt. I brew using the tri-decoction method. The malt is excellent to use with the method.

 

[jtratcliff]

Holy crap, ol' Vlad sounds like he knows his stuff!

Still, I say add some 2-row

If you're gonna spend 10-15 bucks for an aquarium test kit, you might add well spend $25 on a test from Ward Labs.

I've done neither BTW, I don't mess with water chemistry yet, although it's probably next on my list.

A lb of 2-row is an easier 1st step then worrying about the other stuff

 

[Schmoltsbeer]

Today went well, Here's what it looked like. I made a California Common, recipe as follows:

5# Avangard Pilsner
3.5# Weyermann Munich I
1# Breiss 2-row
.5# Crystal 120

I have made this before, but with all two row and never had an issues with conversion times. Today was akin to that day. No issues with conversion, compared to other times where I only used Pilsner malt. I mashed around 152 for the better part of 90 minutes, mostly because I got distracted and needed to heat up my sparge water. I infused 3.5 gallons to my 10# of grain for my first rest about 12.5 a/lb, which a final infusion of 5.75 g of water at 175/176 degrees. I was actually doing a no-sparge, which is more than likely why my measured mash efficiency was about 69%. My after-boil SG was 1.046, expected was 1.050 or so at 75% efficiency.

Next time I will do a fly-sparge, or batch sparge to pick up a little bit more sugar, but the beer still aught to be good. Eitherway, now I know the culprit is the malt, I will look in to other malts in the future, or just make sure that I'm not adding in a whole but of crystal or anything that adds nothing to diastatic power. I will also continue to head you all's advice about water chemistry as I have the money in the future. Thanks for all the info, guys.