a recycling eBIAB Kettle idea

[user 78027]

I currently am a BIAB brewer with a few, 15ish, batches completed. I do small 2.5 gallon batches and I like to do them often. I tend toward the concepts that give me more control and precision.

I was trying to sort out the differences between the BIAB Mash/Lauter process and the traditional Mash Lauter Tun and came to the conclusion that BIAB is simply using the same kettle for the Mash and the boil. I know, slow learner .

I was looking at a bunch of threads, the bad kitty brewery
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/bad-kitty-brewery-ebiab-431276/

110v Recirculating eBIAB 2.5 gallon batches
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/110v-recirculating-ebiab-2-5-gallon-batches-341219/

and many more.

I also looked at the awesome electric brewery site
http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/

I was all set to build a small 110V electric brewery with the info available on electric brewery, but would like to keep the equipment somewhat simpler if I could. So I thought, why not build a kettle that is a combination of the boil kettle and the MLT.

I really am fond of the Herms coil as a way of keeping the mash closer to a constant temperature. Thats the real problem with my arrangement now, along with the fact that the propane causes me a pain to keep filled.

I put all of this together and thought why not build a kettle like the MLT in the electric brewery site and add 2 things.

1) a heating element at the bottom to heat the wort in the mash and the boil.

2) a valve port below the sweet wort port to combine with the sweet wort port for recycling. The recycling pump then connects these two ports together to aid in keeping the temperature closer to the target. It can even be built in like in the recycling eBIAB arrangement. Use the same tubing on the inside as the electric brewery MLT for the return/recycled wort and there is very little difference between this arrangement and the traditional 3 kettle one.

The bag would have to be different, it would have to have a notch in the top to go under the sweet wort port and the MLT and something will need to be done with the silicone tube during the boil.

With permission from kal at the electric brewery I have made a sloppy modification to his MLT kettle image as an example.

 

[jeffmeh]

What is your perceived advantage for doing this rather than just recirculating through a single output port and returning through a port in the kettle lid?

 

[user 78027]

For me it makes the top less useful. Also, There are already several holes in the side of the pot and it seems more consistent to put the return in the side of the pot.

Also, I thought that I might be able to mount the pump on a more permanent basis right beside the output port on the bottom. If it is mounted on the outside of the pot, the pump wouldn't necessarily have to be removed.

 

[user 78027]

Another reason to put the circulation return on the wall of the kettle as opposed to the lid is that a valve after the pump is needed to control the flow out of the pump.

 

[user 78027]

Another issue that the BIAB does not address is the 'liquor to grist ratio'.

From the electricbrewery.com; Like mash temperature, the water to grain ratio (often called 'liquor to grist ratio') used when mashing also affects the beer you produce. Generally speaking, a thicker mash (less water) produces a beer that is fuller/sweeter as it creates more unfermentable sugars while a thinner mash (more water) produces a thinner/dryer beer as it creates more fermentable sugars.

This mash thickness is usually expressed as the number of quarts of water per pound of grain. A mash thickness of about 1.25 quarts/pound is a common ratio used for most ales. For beers such as this one that we want to be a bit thinner/dryer, 1.5 to 2.0 quarts/pound is common.

For my arrangement I start with 5 gallons of water and about 7 to 8 lbs of grain. I want to end with 3.5 gallons after the boil. So for the mash this is 20 quarts/ 8 lbs is 2.5 so all of my batches are way on the thin side. The issue is that I try to do it in one pot so I don't have a supply of mash out temperature water to add to the kettle once the bag is removed.

Also, if I did have some hot water available I could rinse the mashed grains better and maybe get a higher efficiency.

Maybe the answer is a two kettle system with:
A HLT kettle as described in the electric brewery with a heat exchange coil
A combination BK/MLT kettle

This arrangement would allow for the proper liquor to grist ratio. The bag simply allows the grain to be pulled from the boil kettle eliminating the need for a separate MLT. The combination BK/MLT would act just like the traditional MLT during the mash. Recirculation through the heat exchange coil would allow the liquor to be run through the grain to get an adequate extraction. And once the grain is removed, the correct amount of hot water can be added from the HLT. The water could even be run through the grain to extract more of the sugar.

Just thinking out loud.

 

[huntb]

Another issue that the BIAB does not address is the 'liquor to grist ratio'.


For my arrangement I start with 5 gallons of water and about 7 to 8 lbs of grain. I want to end with 3.5 gallons after the boil. So for the mash this is 20 quarts/ 8 lbs is 2.5 so all of my batches are way on the thin side. The issue is that I try to do it in one pot so I don't have a supply of mash out temperature water to add to the kettle once the bag is removed.

Also, if I did have some hot water available I could rinse the mashed grains better and maybe get a higher efficiency.

Maybe the answer is a two kettle system with:
A HLT kettle as described in the electric brewery with a heat exchange coil
A combination BK/MLT kettle

This arrangement would allow for the proper liquor to grist ratio. The bag simply allows the grain to be pulled from the boil kettle eliminating the need for a separate MLT. The combination BK/MLT would act just like the traditional MLT during the mash. Recirculation through the heat exchange coil would allow the liquor to be run through the grain to get an adequate extraction. And once the grain is removed, the correct amount of hot water can be added from the HLT. The water could even be run through the grain to extract more of the sugar.

Just thinking out loud.

This what I have been leaning toward but my problem with the HERMs coil in the HLT is how would you heat up the water to sparge without slowly increasing the mash temp (is this even an issue?) and how are you going to run the sparge water through the grain when you mash out?

 

[user 78027]

how would you heat up the water to sparge without slowly increasing the mash temp (is this even an issue?)

The water will already be at mash out temperature so I would just run that temperature water through the grain to rinse it.

how are you going to run the sparge water through the grain when you mash out?

A silicon food grade tube is attached to the inside sweet wort in port. I currently put the grain bag in a colander so I could just take the tube and run the mash out temp water through the grain bag and it would drain through the colander.

Edit: I have to find a way to stow the tube anyway, I'm thinking of a clip over the top of the pot attached to the handle.

Thanks for asking the questions, I'm making this up as I go along.

 

[huntb]

The water will already be at mash out temperature so I would just run that temperature water through the grain to rinse it.


A silicon food grade tube is attached to the inside sweet wort in port. I currently put the grain bag in a colander so I could just take the tube and run the mash out temp water through the grain bag and it would drain through the colander.

Edit: I have to find a way to stow the tube anyway, I'm thinking of a clip over the top of the pot attached to the handle.

Thanks for asking the questions, I'm making this up as I go along.

For the first question I was asking about the HERMs coil you mention, which will be in your HLT. If you are recirculating you want the water in your HLT to be at mash temperature. When you go to sparge, at what point to you raise the temperature of the water in your HLT to sparge temps? While you are still mashing/recirculating?

 

[user 78027]

The temperature in the HLT will be at mash out temperature which is 168. I just reread the mash procedure at the electronic brewery and they use the water at mash out temperature.

 

[jeffmeh]

Your brewery, so by all means it is up to you. That said, one can certainly put a valve after the pump whether the return is through the side of the kettle or the lid. And plenty of BIAB brewers do full-volume, no-sparge mashes, with no issues around "liquor to grist ratio." If you are going to go with a single-vessel system, it's difficult to improve upon a basic BIAB process with either recirculation or simply insulating the kettle throughout the mash, or both.

 

[user 78027]

Your brewery, so by all means it is up to you. If you are going to go with a single-vessel system, it's difficult to improve upon a basic BIAB process with either recirculation or simply insulating the kettle throughout the mash, or both.

I don't know about your experience, before I insulated my kettle and lid I would mash in at 154F and within the hour mash it would drop to 148. That was when it was about 75 outside. When it is winter and the temperature is in the 40's it seems to me that the drop will be even greater.

 

[jeffmeh]

I don't know about your experience, before I insulated my kettle and lid I would mash in at 154F and within the hour mash it would drop to 148. That was when it was about 75 outside. When it is winter and the temperature is in the 40's it seems to me that the drop will be even greater.

That is why I suggested to either heat and recirculate, or insulate, or both.