A question of morals...

[ranch]

...or ethics, I get the two mixed up all the time. Anyway

So I'm getting everything together to start kegging. I got a working fridge for free off Craigslist and my first two corny's came from eBay earlier this week. Here's the big question: I'm trying to save as much on this setup as possible--this is not to say that I don't want quality gear, I just don't want to spend more than I have to--so now that I have to get a Co2 tank, regulator, faucets, hoses yadda yadda, should I get them at my LHBS to support the local business or just go online and get the stuff for likely a better price? Or will the prices not vary too much? I got the kegs for about $24 a piece after shipping (they go for $40 at my LHBS) and if I save more money on new gear then I can buy more ingredients sooner. I love the guys at my LHBS--they've been nothing but friendly and overly helpful--so I have a bit of a weight on my concious not giving them my business, but this is a big investment......

thanks for the input.

ranch

 

[Cheesefood]

...or ethics, I get the two mixed up all the time. Anyway

So I'm getting everything together to start kegging. I got a working fridge for free off Craigslist and my first two corny's came from eBay earlier this week. Here's the big question: I'm trying to save as much on this setup as possible--this is not to say that I don't want quality gear, I just don't want to spend more than I have to--so now that I have to get a Co2 tank, regulator, faucets, hoses yadda yadda, should I get them at my LHBS to support the local business or just go online and get the stuff for likely a better price? Or will the prices not vary too much? I got the kegs for about $24 a piece after shipping (they go for $40 at my LHBS) and if I save more money on new gear then I can buy more ingredients sooner. I love the guys at my LHBS--they've been nothing but friendly and overly helpful--so I have a bit of a weight on my concious not giving them my business, but this is a big investment......

thanks for the input.

ranch

Buy from them when it's not a big difference in price, but remember that your money belongs to you, not them. Don't feel guilty about getting a better price. They'd sell for thos prices if they could, but they know that most of the kegs sold on eBay weren't obtained legally. Take advantage of eBay.

 

[Dude]

Screw them. Save your money!

I support local businesses all I can, but when prices are marked up in excess of 20% over online retailers, I'm sorry, I can't support you then.

That is all I'll say about this subject.

 

[delboy]

That moral/ethical conundrum is more difficult than it first sounds, normally i would just say get it where you can get it cheapest and let the law of economics and competion decide which businesses make the grade and which fall by the wayside. Its a bit different when you're talking about something that is a hobby/passion espcially when its something like homebrew thats on the wane (at least in the U.K).
I keep fish as well, my local fish shop has started to feel the pinch from a new petstore/supermarket giant that has been built on their doorstep. I have made the decision to go buy the fish/equipment/food from my local and more expensive shop eschewing the supermarket. This is not entirely selfless, i reckon if the pet supermarket and its fish section manages to close down my local shop i'll be left with just a few types of fish kept in poorly maintained tanks sold by unknowledglable assisants/teenagers.
A long winded example but i guess if the preservation of your LHBS and its knowledge base is important to you then maybe you should buy from them. You should also have more come back if something goes wrong.
It sounds like you get on okay with the guys in the shop, at the very least you should tell them what you're planning on buying, what you can get it for and ask them can they move on their price (you might be surprised).

 

[Erbium:YAG]

Buy from them when it's not a big difference in price, but remember that your money belongs to you, not them. Don't feel guilty about getting a better price. They'd sell for thos prices if they could, but they know that most of the kegs sold on eBay weren't obtained legally. Take advantage of eBay.

I agree. I'm sure they'll be getting your business when it comes time to buy ingredients, sanitizer, etc. The only caveat is that when buying from eBay, if something is not right, it's not as easy as going back to the store to make an exchange. Also watch for the jackasses on eBay who have a really low "Buy It Now" price; but then charge you a ridiculous shipping fee.

 

[delboy]

can i just add that coming from the uk i am so jealous of your North American postal/courier system, the fact that you can send a large relatively heavy lump of metal half way across a country the size of america for $28 dollars and the seller still makes money astounds me .
Over here this would never be an issue because the delivery alone from ebay would be about £15-20/$30-40 making the LHBS ones much more attractive even more so if the ebayer sends you out a damaged one (the costs of sending it back wouldn't be worth your while).

 

[Bernie Brewer]

Your LHBS is not a charity, it's a business. If they wish to remain in business, they will be competetive with their prices. Get the bet deal no matter where it is.

 

[2nd Street Brewery]

I give my local guy as much business as possible, that said he can't match prices on alot of stuff that I can get online. Faucets, specially forward seals he doesn't even carry. I got my kegs shipped for less than he had them for. Other things he doesn't even carry. I plan to order my bulk grain from him when I get a mill since in talking to him his prices are close enough to what I can get online to justify it. Plus, last timew I was in he turned me on to a couple glasses of his mead

 

[Pabst Blue Robot]

They will understand that you're on a budget and will find things on the cheap when you can. I talk to my LHBS owner for advice on craigslist finds sometimes, and often he encourages me to go for it because it's a good deal. I probably spend more money on ingredients and other equipment at the LHBS than I would have if I didn't get crazy deals on extra corny kegs or large pots or propane burners elsewhere.

 

[Tony]

Your LHBS is not a charity, it's a business. If they wish to remain in business, they will be competetive with their prices. Get the bet deal no matter where it is.

Bernie, I like what you said!

My LHBS is one of the more well known online HBS shops, and I used to try and frequent them when I could, and liked the idea of supporting local business, being able to pick up my supplies that day. But, over time, I found I could never spend my money there for anything other than malts, yeast and hops, as their equipment and other supplies are way too over priced. Every now and then they have a rebuilt keg cheap or carboys on sale, but thats about it. And even now, I shop around for malts and adjuncts. $2 and up a pound for simple American 2 row, Pils and other base malts to me is too much. I have found other online shops who sell for much less, and most times, I can brew 2 recipes using other shops malt prices, for the price of 1 at my LHBS.

It might not seem like too much, but over time it adds up. And some of us have families, mortgages, bills out the ying yang, and are limited to our spending habits. I bought my keg fridge on sale, my kegs at bargin basement prices, donated carboys and other pieces from ex-brewers, and assembled my system with odds and ends to keep the costs down. Thats why when I see an Ice Cube cooler for 15 buck or items on eBay and Craigs List for cheap or free...I jump. Now I'm on the prowl for a couple old fridges for supplies and lagering.

To me, If I could afford the best, I would buy it. But, until then, I support the lowest prices I can find. And this isnt a slam against anyones LHBS, but so many times they can be uptight, pompous people who think because they sell a product, they are experts. Like mine...who pomously said there was "no such thing as 60L crystal or 60L caramel malts" She said to "just toast some 40L" if you want to get it darker. Rather than argue with her that everyone else sells it, I just chalked as another thing that my LHBS doesnt know. Plus, they cater to the winemaking community, and, at least here anyway, they seem to look down on the beer brewers. Especially when the new grapes come out each season. "Are you here to pick up your grapes order?" with a smile. And after you say no, that you're there for some malts and such, you get the "Oh" and a look as if you killed the Easter Bunny or something. I guess it makes a difference to them if i'm spending my money on beer supplies instead of buying what they want me to spend it on.

Anyway, like I said, i'm not slamming anyone elses LHBS, only mine...LOL. And thats my two cents worth.

 

[the_bird]

I give my local guy as much business as possible, that said he can't match prices on alot of stuff that I can get online. Faucets, specially forward seals he doesn't even carry. I got my kegs shipped for less than he had them for. Other things he doesn't even carry. I plan to order my bulk grain from him when I get a mill since in talking to him his prices are close enough to what I can get online to justify it. Plus, last timew I was in he turned me on to a couple glasses of his mead

He gave you mead? That f*cker!

A place like Hennessy (where 2nd St and I shop), I want to give him as much business as I can, because he's a good resource and a good guy. Nice shop, friendly folks he has working, good quality ingredients. He doesn't stock really esotetic stuff or things like Sanke conversion parts, so I'll buy that stuff online.

I guess my thought is - if you're got a good local shop, try to buy what you can there if the prices are reasonable, but don't feel shame if you buy online for stuff they don't carry, have only at very high prices, or if it's a crappy store generally. Don't feel the need to subsidize a bad merchant.

Hell, I've heard Roger tell people that he doesn't mind people buying stuff online, "keeps me honest!"

Oh, 2nd - I prolly won't be down this weekend, I'm going to hit the HBS in Northampton (gotta hit the beer store out there and get some good stuff).

 

[Rook]

I was a little surprised to see some of the replies. I actually expected people to be more "support your local HBS" in this thread.

Yeah, they are businesses, but they can't compete with online purchasing, and a lot of businesses cannot (where I work included). I like to support my LHBS, make sure they'll be around for me when I need em. If its a few bux extra, big deal, nothing they sell is a ripoff.

My $.02

 

[Cheesefood]

As far as I'm concerned, the LHBS is like 7-11. For me, 7-11 is across the street and extremely convenient, but everything costs twice as much. Still, when I'm cooking and realize I'm out of butter, I'll run across the street rather than go to the grocery store.

Same with the LHBS. I go there when I'm in a pinch. Or when I need advice. The Online HBS is probably operating on razor thin margins just to get the business and move product and not sit on grains, hops, or yeast for months.

Now, I'll buy commodity items from LHBS, but my hardware is all bought online.

 

[ranch]

So I think I'm going to buy online. It'll be a difference of about $100 if I do. As a student, 3 digits looks awfully big. Any suggestions for online retail of kegging gear (I need everything but the kegs and the fridge)? Also, should I spring for all stainless facucets? I keep hearing about how chrome and brass corrode and flavor the beer. Fact or marketing ploy?

But yeah, my LHBS is a great one. If they were a bunch of know-nothing jerks I wouldn't hesitate to look elsewhere, but as it is they always answer all my questions genuine interest and honest, and every time I go in I get to sample some new recipe they've got in the works.

But as I've said, that $100 I save will likely go to them, seeing as I need something to pour out of these kegs.

ranch

 

[user 574]

I support my LHBS for convenience and sometimes price. If I can buy local "whatever" from my lhbs and I get it for about the same price or a bit higher than online, I get it from him cuz I want my toyz now!

When he sells cornies for $60 I tell him I got mine for $28 rebuilt after shipping. In no way do I feel guilty and I also like to subtly let him know he's friggen wacked selling for that price. He could have been at $33 and I'd buy from him because of convenience. And he'd have made the sale on 6 cornies. Guess he reserves that mark-up on the sucker and I'm usually not the sucker. My guy is fair market on some stuff and outrageous on others. Kegging supplies he should include a free bottle of K-Y. Buy online when it makes sense...

 

[desiderata]

I agree with the earlier poster who suggested telling your LHBS about the price difference, and how you would like to buy it from them, and see if they budge the price for you. By showing your loyalty, and being honest with them, they should do it. And, if they don't, you then have no guilt in making the cheaper purchase. If the LHBS is respectful of your decision and there are no hard feelings, then you can buy from them in the future, when there is not such a cost difference. That's what I would do, anyway.

 

[gnef]

yea, i've felt the same way before. my lhbs is awesome (austin homebrew), and their stock is amazing. they also have a great online following because of their previous free shipping over 60, and now their flat rate 5.99 shipping. in so doing, they have to mark everything else up to compensate. it is still a good/great deal on most things, but some things i look towards craigslist.

kegs i've found for dirt cheap on craigslist. i once bought 8 kegs for 5 dollars a piece. the lhbs is also about 40 for a reconditioned keg. their o-rings are about 3 dollars for a set. when i first started and only had a few kegs, i bought the o-rings from them.

i now have over 30 kegs, and in so doing, have also bought bulk o-rings at mcmaster along with other things.

co2 - look on craigslist. at least in austin, the tanks show up on craigslist fairly frequently. usually out of test, but that is around 20 dollars on top of the cost of the swap generally, so it isn't too bad. i now have 6 co2 tanks of varying sizes all paid 20 dollars or less per tank.

i also recently built a motorized crankandstein mill, and then got in on a group buy for grains and hops. i used to buy the recipe kits at austinhomebrew, which are excellent kits, but i wanted to get more for my money. now i mostly go to austinhomebrew for specialty malts as i need them, yeast, hops that i don't have, chemicals, and assorted fittings if i need them, oh and adjuncts.

they are an excellent resource for new brewers, and i used them solely during the first year and half, investing much in to keeping them alive, but now that i have gone all-grain, started saving yeast, can do 10 gallon batches, etc. i can brew more than twice as much for the same ingredient costs i did before, and i plan on making my own recipes in the near future. i'll definitely pop in every now and then, and maybe i'll bring in some of what i've made to share as well.

i also plan on getting in to wine in the near future, so i'll definitely be going to them for that as well.

 

[MA_Brewer]

Bernie, I like what you said!

My LHBS is one of the more well known online HBS shops, and I used to try and frequent them when I could, and liked the idea of supporting local business, being able to pick up my supplies that day. But, over time, I found I could never spend my money there for anything other than malts, yeast and hops, as their equipment and other supplies are way too over priced. Every now and then they have a rebuilt keg cheap or carboys on sale, but thats about it. And even now, I shop around for malts and adjuncts. $2 and up a pound for simple American 2 row, Pils and other base malts to me is too much. I have found other online shops who sell for much less, and most times, I can brew 2 recipes using other shops malt prices, for the price of 1 at my LHBS.

It might not seem like too much, but over time it adds up. And some of us have families, mortgages, bills out the ying yang, and are limited to our spending habits. I bought my keg fridge on sale, my kegs at bargin basement prices, donated carboys and other pieces from ex-brewers, and assembled my system with odds and ends to keep the costs down. Thats why when I see an Ice Cube cooler for 15 buck or items on eBay and Craigs List for cheap or free...I jump. Now I'm on the prowl for a couple old fridges for supplies and lagering.

To me, If I could afford the best, I would buy it. But, until then, I support the lowest prices I can find. And this isnt a slam against anyones LHBS, but so many times they can be uptight, pompous people who think because they sell a product, they are experts. Like mine...who pomously said there was "no such thing as 60L crystal or 60L caramel malts" She said to "just toast some 40L" if you want to get it darker. Rather than argue with her that everyone else sells it, I just chalked as another thing that my LHBS doesnt know. Plus, they cater to the winemaking community, and, at least here anyway, they seem to look down on the beer brewers. Especially when the new grapes come out each season. "Are you here to pick up your grapes order?" with a smile. And after you say no, that you're there for some malts and such, you get the "Oh" and a look as if you killed the Easter Bunny or something. I guess it makes a difference to them if i'm spending my money on beer supplies instead of buying what they want me to spend it on.

Anyway, like I said, i'm not slamming anyone elses LHBS, only mine...LOL. And thats my two cents worth.

I've been the the LHBS that you are likely talking about, as I used to work up there at the intersecion of 128 & 93. Equipment prices are, indeed, way overpriced. I also know exactly what you mean when you say "are you here for your grapes? LOL. They need some "young blood" in that place. I now have a closer LHBS that I use since i moved.

 

[Tony]

I've been the the LHBS that you are likely talking about, as I used to work up there at the intersecion of 128 & 93. Equipment prices are, indeed, way overpriced. I also know exactly what you mean when you say "are you here for your grapes? LOL. They need some "young blood" in that place. I now have a closer LHBS that I use since i moved.

Yup, you know the place. And as for new blood, yes its definately needed, and make sure you dont talk to the woman packing internet orders...LOL, she's a rude one for sure.

I like the convenience of a local HBS. Since it looks like you moved to Marlboro, you must be frequenting Strange Brew. How are they?

 

[MA_Brewer]

Yup, you know the place. And as for new blood, yes its definately needed, and make sure you dont talk to the woman packing internet orders...LOL, she's a rude one for sure.

I like the convenience of a local HBS. Since it looks like you moved to Marlboro, you must be frequenting Strange Brew. How are they?

Yes, they are my new LHBS. I like the place, it is smaller and more compact, but they seem to have everything I need. My only complaint, is that the Wyeast smack packs are sometimes older - you have to check the date before selecting. I usually lookup ahead of time an alternate strain I think would work well. I didn't used to make up starters, but I do so more often now as the condition of the yeast might not be so hot. I haven't brewed as much lately (a family addition geting in the way ) so I am not sure of the availability of odd ingredients. All-in-all though, prices are fair, and have had good luck with getting advice and ideas from Brian (who works there - owns the place, I think)

 

[homebrewer_99]

You work hard for your money...go wherever the best deal is...simple.

Retailers don't care how much money you have or don't have. It's not their worry.

 

[Tony]

Yes, they are my new LHBS. I like the place, it is smaller and more compact, but they seem to have everything I need...

...I haven't brewed as much lately (a family addition geting in the way ) so I am not sure of the availability of odd ingredients. All-in-all though, prices are fair, and have had good luck with getting advice and ideas from Brian (who works there - owns the place, I think)

Sounds like I need to take a drive over to check them out. Not to highjack this thread and change it to the "Massachusetts LHBS" thread, but I tried Modern Brewer in Cambridge, but it didnt have much to select from, with the exceptions being yeast and hops. I did pick up Randy Moshers book cheap though. Anyway, I will check out Strange.

By the way, congrats on the new addition to the family!

 

[SteveM]

Two more cents on the original question:

I would feel very queasy about using the LHBS for free consulting services if I had no intention of buying from them. The advice and counsel they give is a part of their overall service - it is what you pay for.

If your purchase is nothing more than a cash transaction and you know what you want and are shopping by price alone, then buy at the lowest price you can find.

But if you are picking the brains of the staff at the LHBS, then I would feel obliged to be up front with them about my money situation and my intention to compare prices even with places that might not have advice to give.

To pretend to be willing to buy from them while only actually wanting free advice is something I would be uncomfortable with.

 

[user 574]

To pretend to be willing to buy from them while only actually wanting free advice is something I would be uncomfortable with.

Very true - I'd feel like a weasel doing that and usually would get my info elsewhere in that case (like here!). Come to think of it, I get all my info here. I don't always trust the knowledge of the staff at my LHBS unless the owner is in.

 

[the_bird]

Incidentally, I went to the HBS in Northampton, MA, instead of my usual one. NOT happy.

1. Ingredients that would have cost me $45 at Hennessy (itself not an uber-cheap place, but respectable) cost me $60. $3 for a packet of dry yeast!

2. They basically acted as if they were doing me a favor by selling me product. I ordered my grain, they "politely" informed me that most people call their order in ahead of time, and that if they had been busy, they wouldn't have been able to help me. OK, fine - but freakin' Hennessy not only never gives me crap about coming in and asking for some grain ground up (not an absurd amount, just enough for a ten-gallon batch), they've offered to grind up a 50-lb bag for me on the spot if I wanted. Plus, it's not like it was just one guy working.

I don't know, I felt like I got ripped off. They close early on Saturday and aren't open at all on Sunday. You can't peruse the hops and yeast like I can at Hennessy.

Oh, yeah, I was down there with evanmars, and he needs a weldless coupling for his keg. They had a couple on the counter, but of course - they weren't for sale, they were for a customer. Bah.

I'm sure that for a lot of the people around, it would be a huge improvement over what they have to offer - but unless I'm in NoHo anyway, I'll keep heading over to Troy when I need stuff.

 

[Bernie Brewer]

2. They basically acted as if they were doing me a favor by selling me product. I ordered my grain, they "politely" informed me that most people call their order in ahead of time, and that if they had been busy, they wouldn't have been able to help me. OK, fine - but freakin' Hennessy not only never gives me crap about coming in and asking for some grain ground up (not an absurd amount, just enough for a ten-gallon batch), they've offered to grind up a 50-lb bag for me on the spot if I wanted. Plus, it's not like it was just one guy working.

I.

The closest one to me just lets me wander around and get what I need. I weigh it myself, bag it up, and when I used to grind it there i would grind it myself too. Just take it to the counter and tell them what I have. they set themselves up for some dishonest customers that way, but that's the chance they take.

 

[Pumbaa]

I'm fortunate to have 5 LHBS with in 30 minutes of my house so that may make my perspective on the subject a bit different then most. When it comes to buying stuff I tend to stick to local Mom and Pops as much as possible, AS LONG AS I'm not getting screwed over on the price. I'm willing to pay a few % points more to support local businesses. Most of the time I absolutely refuse to buy from store like Walmart, K Mart, Best Buy, Circut City, etc.

The way I see it is I go to the Mom and Pop stores not only for the product but for the service that I get at those stores. I deal with knowledgeable people who actually give a sh!t about their customers. I dont like dealing with some smart arse punk who doesnt know jack about anything and treats you like you know less then he does.

With that being said when it comes to major purchases I start to put a value on that service. My new computer for example . . . If I would buy it from the "Local" computer store (Milwaukee PC, not really a Mom and Pop anymore they have grownby leaps and bounds) the system I am looking for would cost me almost DOUBLE as compared to what I'll pay for it on Newegg.com so guess where I am going to buy my parts . . .

My LHBS I tend to go to for my malts, yeast, and hops but when it comes to the big purchases I tend to go to the best price I can find. I dont mind paying for a premium to get my grain in the exact amounts I want, get it ground for basicly free, get suggestions on yeast and hops if exactly what I am looking for isn't available, and bouncing some ideas off of the owners, but I AM NOT going to pay a premium for large purchases that I'd probably ask you guys about and get better info from here then at the LHBS

 

[user 574]

The closest one to me just lets me wander around and get what I need. I weigh it myself, bag it up, and when I used to grind it there i would grind it myself too. Just take it to the counter and tell them what I have. they set themselves up for some dishonest customers that way, but that's the chance they take.

My store started this about 6 months ago and is awesome. No more waiting for them to fill my grain bill / grind it & in the back of my head wondering if they really did it right.

 

[MA_Brewer]

Sounds like I need to take a drive over to check them out. Not to highjack this thread and change it to the "Massachusetts LHBS" thread, but I tried Modern Brewer in Cambridge, but it didnt have much to select from, with the exceptions being yeast and hops. I did pick up Randy Moshers book cheap though. Anyway, I will check out Strange.

By the way, congrats on the new addition to the family!

Sometimes I wonder what the other (big mail-order places) like Northern Brewer and B3 look like - I've never been in any MA HBS that knocked my socks off. Come check it out, the prices seem a little better than the Woburn place, but not by a wicked huge margin. The prices that are online are pretty much what they charge in the store for both locations.

I went to Modern Brewer in Cambridge once, it was where I got by first sankey tap/faucet/co2 tank setup for commercial beer for a party I had - this was probably 8 years ago - I then quickly expanded to kegging the homebrew.

I also went once to the West Boylston Homebrew Emporium, owned by the same guy/company I think, and it was OK as well. Got some bottle caps, I think, from when I used to bottle - was just checking the place out.

Where is the Home Depot of home brewing....????

 

[dibby33]

I try to buy my stuff from my LHBS. Conviently 30min walk from my work and they seem to know what they are talking about (they are probably reading this read also! Hi Amanda and Poppy!!!)

If the service was not good I would go elsewhere. You pay extra for that.