BBL_Brewer
Well-Known Member
A better question is, who has a room in the house that is 90-120F? If the experiment is to be done, I would do it at normal room temp (around 70F).
A Cold Mashing...Is this true?
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A better question is, who has a room in the house that is 90-120F? If the experiment is to be done, I would do it at normal room temp (around 70F).
Obliviousbrew
Well-Known Member
ScoRas said:
Anyone with spare time and a sauna at home?
Heh Heh, I was thinking of my back room in the summer. I'm no historian, but I do work on co-evolution of enzymes in microbes. We usually just have thought experiments like this to think of conditions that are plausible, and see if we can recreate them in the lab.
We'll never be able to know exactly what conditions organisms experienced in the past, but we can try our best using historical models, and test them.
Anyway, I think this is an interesting discussion. I'm not arguing with anyone's ideas.
We'll never be able to know exactly what conditions organisms experienced in the past, but we can try our best using historical models, and test them.
Anyway, I think this is an interesting discussion. I'm not arguing with anyone's ideas.
BBL_Brewer
Well-Known Member
I'm kind of curious about it myself now. Lots of people do extended mashes where they start the mash the night before and then kick off brew day with the lauter. However, the mash usally doesnt drop much below 140 with the proper insulation. I'm with Malfet, I would be worried about spoilage just letting it rest at room temp for 24 hours. Might be better suited for a sour mash.
As I said, with OUR back and forth
I appreciate a good discussion, and most of the time, posters around here have valid points, even in disagreement. It's one of the reasons I started posting here.
On topic: I guess the real trick would be to do a series to determine what temperature range was most efficient overall, and how long the process takes.
Perhaps also do a minor modification with the first infusion being hotter water to kill surface bacteria, and then topping up with room temp water of reasonable cleanliness. I would presume a very thin mash would be appropriate- I would contend the earliest brewers would be unlikely to intentionally dilute later in the process (post mash or post boil)
As the wort will later be boiled (unless you really want to go ancient), I wouldn't worry overmuch about bacterial growth, except in whatever initial sourness might be created.
Cool, sometimes its tough to 'get' the intentions of someone the first time conversing online.
It would be interesting to come up with a set of experiments that could shed light on what process would be 'easier' to discover, and/or how it was discovered, either accidentally or through experimentation. In reality, it was probably a mixture of both. We tend to not give proper credit to ancient man, but at the same time, they did operate with far less knowledge and technology than we do.
Being that malting actually has a visual and taste component that is readily apparent, i tend to agree that this part of the process was discovered accidentally, which lend to 'experimentation' with various processes similar to mashing to extract the sugars.
It would be interesting to come up with a set of experiments that could shed light on what process would be 'easier' to discover, and/or how it was discovered, either accidentally or through experimentation. In reality, it was probably a mixture of both. We tend to not give proper credit to ancient man, but at the same time, they did operate with far less knowledge and technology than we do.
Being that malting actually has a visual and taste component that is readily apparent, i tend to agree that this part of the process was discovered accidentally, which lend to 'experimentation' with various processes similar to mashing to extract the sugars.
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Uh, moonshiners have been converting starches to sugar without mash temps for a long time.
Basic recipe: take a bunch of corn, and bury it in manure. Leave for 10 days, then come back and wash the manure from the corn (its now malted). Dump that with some horse feed (which contains barley) and put it in a big container. Top the container off with water, and dump some bakers yeast in it or a partially baked loaf of bread. return in 1-3 weeks and distill. The yeast will eat up any sugars immediately after they're converted from the starch, and preserve the mash from most infections. ... Supposedly its really inefficient, and to get the full conversion, you have to take the back-set (the stillage after the whiskey is distilled) and dump it back on the mash. Corn and barley, 80%/20%, takes about 3 times before it's fully converted, or so the old lore goes.
I'm actually going to try a sour mash using this method once it warms up here (Pac NW). EDIT: for a beer, minus the manure...
Basic recipe: take a bunch of corn, and bury it in manure. Leave for 10 days, then come back and wash the manure from the corn (its now malted). Dump that with some horse feed (which contains barley) and put it in a big container. Top the container off with water, and dump some bakers yeast in it or a partially baked loaf of bread. return in 1-3 weeks and distill. The yeast will eat up any sugars immediately after they're converted from the starch, and preserve the mash from most infections. ... Supposedly its really inefficient, and to get the full conversion, you have to take the back-set (the stillage after the whiskey is distilled) and dump it back on the mash. Corn and barley, 80%/20%, takes about 3 times before it's fully converted, or so the old lore goes.
I'm actually going to try a sour mash using this method once it warms up here (Pac NW). EDIT: for a beer, minus the manure...
Obliviousbrew
Well-Known Member
Manure can get really hot inside specially in summer. Composite material has insulation properties and if the pile is big enough retains the heat of the biological reactions in it. Mash temps are reached or almost reached by different means. There is no magic
BBL_Brewer
Well-Known Member
He said they use the manure for malting, not for mashing. Anyway you look at, sounds like a Shi**y way to brew.
29thfloor
Well-Known Member
Maybe this is what they mean when they say that Coors is "frost brewed"?
Decomposing manure gets really warm, that's where the mash temps are coming from. Here's another historical possibility! Good post.
Meh you can only really call it conclusive if you run a significant number of more tests (in this case probably 10 or so) and have some of us do the same thing.
Also, how long did you mash at 152? 60 min?
But I'm going to go ahead and venture a guess that all tests will result in roughly the same.
SamHain
Well-Known Member
Yes an hour....
I'm good, no more tests for me. If they we're close in numbers I'd consider it but that's quite a difference. Also with the cold mash my house didn't have that awesome smell you get with hot mashing.
I'm good, no more tests for me. If they we're close in numbers I'd consider it but that's quite a difference. Also with the cold mash my house didn't have that awesome smell you get with hot mashing.
So this is a real thing. Dan Beis did a talk at NHC this year on "cold mashing" or "non enzymatic mashing". By mashing cold you extract all the modified sugars small proteins and enzymes. Basically anything water soluble gets extracted. This doesn't extract the starches so you get only a quarter of you base malt, about half of your crystal. You get all of the color and flavor of the malts. I just made a smash red ale with Maris otter and cascade.
Holy Hell!!!!
I know right! I was a little worried. I guess I could start a new thread.
I am always looking for another tool to adjust my beers and this has potential. I am aware of how wasteful it is but if I brew two beers I could use the spent cold mash malt as a adjunct in the second beer. A colorless, flavorless, adjunct.
I was a little worried. I guess I could start a new thread.I am always looking for another tool to adjust my beers and this has potential. I am aware of how wasteful it is but if I brew two beers I could use the spent cold mash malt as a adjunct in the second beer. A colorless, flavorless, adjunct.
Who was this random guy in the hardware store lol? Dude was years ahead of his time!
No, he was years behind his time. That process was popular in the Stone Ages.
He was brewing super low alcohol beers before it was cool.
Zymomancer
Well-Known Member
Suddenly I'm curious about this topic... how much malt did you use and what was the OG? Did you actually use x4 the amount of malt you would use in a standard mash?
It was a 10 is pound recipe originally. What I did was 9 pounds Maris otter for the NEM mash and 7 pounds for the hot mash. I heated the NEM liquid to temp and added it to the hot mash like normal. Mashed for 30 minutes. I my SG was 1.046 and it settled out at 1.006. It has a full mouth feel but is very dry, I only FWH with 1 oz of cascade, but can still taste the bitterness.
I didn't use 4x the malt for several reasons. If I used 4x the malt it would have been would have been black, or very dark red, and all I wanted was a test it in a smash. Plus 40 pounds of malt is a lot for a five gallon batch.
I didn't use 4x the malt for several reasons. If I used 4x the malt it would have been would have been black, or very dark red, and all I wanted was a test it in a smash. Plus 40 pounds of malt is a lot for a five gallon batch.
for what it's worth (and it's a simple experiment any one can do) - during Ferulic acid rest at 110F, I got conversion to about 1.040 SG (after proper mashing it went up to 1.090 on first runnings).
So while mashing at lower temperatures is rather inefficient, it does happen. Probably even at 80-90F. I will do an experiment later today
That post was 4 years old.... but I'm still interested lol. Let us know what you end up with.
I did the first mash at a 40F...
What I am doing is a little different than the OP guy. I am taking only the water soluble parts of the grain. Then adding it to a second mash. Ideally I would have added the spent grain from the first mash into a third mash to convert the starch that is not water soluable and make a second beer. Something that needs gravity but not the flavor contribution of the Maris (it is near flavorless now).
This is a picture of the beer today a couple of minutes after pour. This is a smash of Maris Otter and cascade and it is very bready, crisp and clear. With a couple of ounces of midnight wheat it will be very red.
What I am doing is a little different than the OP guy. I am taking only the water soluble parts of the grain. Then adding it to a second mash. Ideally I would have added the spent grain from the first mash into a third mash to convert the starch that is not water soluable and make a second beer. Something that needs gravity but not the flavor contribution of the Maris (it is near flavorless now).
This is a picture of the beer today a couple of minutes after pour. This is a smash of Maris Otter and cascade and it is very bready, crisp and clear. With a couple of ounces of midnight wheat it will be very red.
Here is another picture with out my hand in it.
