60 min. full boil Malt Extract vs. late addition Malt Extract - What Say You?

[Weezy]

You know, I've been in discussions on this before and I'd like to test it out. I'm planning a simple extract brew this week. I wanted to test make a shandy using sugar free lemonade (a brilliant idea I learned from these forums and it had never occurred to me). Using DME will make it quick. beer side of the recipe is just some golden and some wheat DME , touch of crystal 10. Probably a good test for looking for DME flavor differences and hop utilization. Not too hoppy though (23).

I was going to male a 3 gallon batch. How about I split it and do 60 min full volume boils of both but in one add the full DME amount at the start and the other add, say 10%, at the start and rest at flame out?
I'll just go and do it but I posted to see if anyone had better ideas on the test setup.

 

[getup2getdown]

Question: If adding the LME at flame out and letting it rest for 15 minutes, does that affect your hop schedule? Basically if I have hops that I will be adding at 5 minutes left in boil, should I still be adding them at 5 minutes before flame out, or should I now be adding them at 10 minutes after flame out? Same thing with hops that were to be added with 15 minutes left in boil?

 

[Indianhead_Brewer]

It's interesting to see this thread pop up again after more than a year.

I was going to male a 3 gallon batch. How about I split it and do 60 min full volume boils of both but in one add the full DME amount at the start and the other add, say 10%, at the start and rest at flame out?

I think Weezy's idea of brewing two batches and changing up the addition of malt extract to different times during the boil is probably the best way for a brewer to get an idea of hops utilization and how it is affected by the change in one's own brewing process. Until you do it for yourself you just don't know.

Question: If adding the LME at flame out and letting it rest for 15 minutes, does that affect your hop schedule? Basically if I have hops that I will be adding at 5 minutes left in boil, should I still be adding them at 5 minutes before flame out, or should I now be adding them at 10 minutes after flame out? Same thing with hops that were to be added with 15 minutes left in boil?

getup2getdown: I would have to say that you should probably change your hop schedule since you are going to let your hot wort sit for 15 minutes post boil. With that being said, if you keep with the schedule you are proposing (changing 15 min addition to 0 minutes and your 5 minute addition to 10 minutes after flameout) you also may not get the desired effect in your beer. You are not going to get as much bittering from what once your 15 minute charge of hops if you add at flameout. You are also likely to get more aromatics in your beer due to the decrease of volatilization of hop aroma oils. You must also consider that if you added hops at the beginning of the boil (60 minutes), that those are likely contributing more IBUs to your beer due to the late addition of LME. Overall you may want to consider playing around with all your hop additions. I've found the best way to do that is using some of the brewing software out there which does take into account late extract additions and IBUs. This will give you some sense of the changes, but ultimately your palate is going to tell you if they were the right ones.

 

[Weezy]

I did not do the test only because it'd be better to do with a hoppier beer. I want to start working on a low grav IPA recipe. I will do the test then.

as far as real bitterness, I'm in agreement with Jamil inthat, because the IBU equations are flawed, it is best to rely on your taste buds. Learn to recognize when tasting a beer what 20 vs 25 IBUs tastes like, relying on the equations for a number only and on your taste buds for what the number should be. it takes a lot of patience though to concentrate when you're tasting beers. Tinseth'a EQ is heavily reliant on boil gravity while Rager is not.

 

[wolfej50]

Interesting to note that Mr. Beer HME isn't boiled at all. I've gone past Mr. Beer, but it does support the idea that it isn't necessary to boil the extract. I suspect that a late addition would also reduce that amount of energy necessary to sustain the boil and might reduce the the foaming that causes boilover.

 

[Roundhouse]

I mentioned in the water thread that I treat my extract beers exactly like my all grain beers. The same goes for the boil. Extract is nothing more than wort after the mash that has had much of the moisture removed. Even more so for DME. Rehydrating it should bring it back to it's standard wort strength. Therefore I boil it as I would any all grain beer at the same amount of time. It's important to get a good hot break. The caveat to this is that you need to be able to boil full volume. If you can only boil 2 or 3 gallons of a 5 gallon batch, you'll get more kettle carmelization and darkening of the wort. In this instance it is more beneficial to add it later to avoid this. Don't overthink extract brewing. It's the same as all grain brewing but you've just had someone else do the mash step for you. Don't treat the rest of the process any different.

 

[WildTim]

I mentioned in the water thread that I treat my extract beers exactly like my all grain beers. The same goes for the boil. Extract is nothing more than wort after the mash that has had much of the moisture removed. Even more so for DME. Rehydrating it should bring it back to it's standard wort strength. Therefore I boil it as I would any all grain beer at the same amount of time. It's important to get a good hot break. The caveat to this is that you need to be able to boil full volume. If you can only boil 2 or 3 gallons of a 5 gallon batch, you'll get more kettle carmelization and darkening of the wort. In this instance it is more beneficial to add it later to avoid this. Don't overthink extract brewing. It's the same as all grain brewing but you've just had someone else do the mash step for you. Don't treat the rest of the process any different.

Except that it isn't just the mash step that has been done. Extracts and hopped extracts are concentrated complete wort that has already been through the full boil, then processed for easy use.

Heck, if you read the instructions on a cheap can kit they say to simply dissolve your fermentables with boiling water right in the fermentation bucket then top with cold water. Your extract never sees a kettle at all, and you still get beer thats more or less true to style.

 

[Roundhouse]

If you follow the instructions on a cheap can, you'll get crap beer too. When I make an extract beer, you can't tell it was made from extract. Full boil. I mostly do all grain though but using them essentially the same gives essentially the same result. Practice over theory.

 

[mcartt11]

I have recently tried the add at flame out method and so far my results have been not as I expected. When adding the DME at flame out, I never seem to be able to get all of the DME to dissolve leaving me with a very cloudy wort. I have added the LME slowly while stirring and then continued to stir for an additional 5-10 minutes and still don't seem to be able to get all the LME into solution. I am only doing a 3 gallon boil which may have something to do with it, but I am just wondering if others have had this same problem and what you did about it.

I think in my next batch I am going to try to add late but not at flame out and see if I can get the LME into solution. I assume I will be able to if I add and then boil for another 10 minutes or so.

 

[ncbrewer]

I have recently tried the add at flame out method and so far my results have been not as I expected. When adding the DME at flame out, I never seem to be able to get all of the DME to dissolve leaving me with a very cloudy wort. I have added the LME slowly while stirring and then continued to stir for an additional 5-10 minutes and still don't seem to be able to get all the LME into solution. I am only doing a 3 gallon boil which may have something to do with it, but I am just wondering if others have had this same problem and what you did about it.

I think in my next batch I am going to try to add late but not at flame out and see if I can get the LME into solution. I assume I will be able to if I add and then boil for another 10 minutes or so.

I haven't had the problem of LME not dissolving using a 2.5 gallon boil. I wonder if it's just the hot break you're seeing. I like the flameout addition method because then you don't have to bring it back to boil. It's especially good for a hop stand - it brings the temperature to around 170 - 180.

 

[mcartt11]

I haven't had the problem of LME not dissolving using a 2.5 gallon boil. I wonder if it's just the hot break you're seeing. I like the flameout addition method because then you don't have to bring it back to boil. It's especially good for a hop stand - it brings the temperature to around 170 - 180.

I guess it could just be the hot break. When I added the DME there was definitely alot of foaming and clumps which I thought were the clumps of DME. The foam never really went away however and that is what worried me. Even after letting the wort cool there was still a layer of foam on the top. I couldn't really see if there were actual clumps still under the foam. I will say that I didn't notice any when I transferred to the primary.