60+ hours since yeast pitch and nary a bubble

[toddo97]

I'm in the middle of my 2nd batch ever and 1st sour beer (berliner weisse) and pitched my yeast almost 3 days ago and haven't gotten any activity in my air lock. I made my wort about 2 weeks ago and added the lacto that came with the kit [White Labs Lactobacillus (WLP677) if that helps]. I read that the dubruekii strain in there will only get to a ph of around 4.5 so I added some Good Belly about a week ago. With my very questionable ph strips, I figured the ph to be 3.4-3.5 so I pitched the Danstar Nottingham that came it. I also had a half a pack of Safale S-05 from my first batch that may or may not have still been viable. I don't have a climate controlled area so it's sitting at about 76 degrees which isn't ideal, but I wouldn't think would be a yeast killer. The strange thing is that when I boiled the wort, got an OG reading of 1.038, but when I pitched the yeast, I took another reading and got 1.013. I thought the lacto wouldn't have any effect on that, but of course, this is my 2nd batch so I not terribly knowledgeable. Surely it couldn't be done fermenting with just that lacto, could it? Should I get another pack of yeast and try to pitch again? I can get a pack from Amazon Prime of Safale S-04 that I'll get before the weekend. Thanks!

 

[dyetube]

From my readings, 76° could absolutely be a yeast killer. Plus the fact that you don't know if your other yeast was viable means it might not be working either, but even if it was viable in any way, the 76° could have killed it. ales should go no higher than 76° to 72° at MOST. And then only only beers where the recipe calls for fruity esters (Like hefe's). You want to ferment at around 67° with ales.

 

[toddo97]

So try another pack and stick it in a tub of cool water? I have a pack of saison yeast since I read that's a little more heat tolerant--my only concern is what that'll do to the taste.

 

[dyetube]

Firstly, you need to get that wort down to at least 70°. otherwise if you pitch more yeast, it still won't ferment. As to adding more yeast. I would think that would do the trick, but I want some of the other veterans on here with more experience than me to answer that question. I've always heard that if you go 3 or more days without fermentation, pitch more yeast. Do you have any Krausening gong on? You can have fermentation without bubbles, or so I understand.

 

[xpops]

the 76 temp definitely did not kill off your yeast. peruse the forums and you'll see a million threads about people getting banana flavoured ales because their fermentation hit mid/high 80's. they're still alive and will make beer...just not really good beer

I would bet the environment that the lacto created in the 2 weeks prior to pitching, is killing your sach strain. do you have a pH meter? typically sach get killed off in pH below 3.5. That's why a lot of people will need to pitch fresh yeast along with their priming sugar when bottle conditioning, as the sach is typically dead.

 

[owmatooth]

I've brewed lots at 76 and never had any issues with viability of yeast- but tons of issues with off flavors due to high temp. Now I brew at 67 and life is grand. Unless I'm using a saison yeast - i use the wyeast french saison- then i intentionally leave it at 76 and it comes out great. saison can go as high as 80 and still make a great beer.

as for the lack of activity, I'd be more suspect of the ph than the temperature. I wouldn't pitch another yeast directly into that ph (3.4) without making a big rolling starter. also, take a gravity reading again. if it's down at the 1.015 or less level. there just aint much to ferment. not unthinkable that the brett strain got some sacc yeast in it and you just done fermenting. just a thought.

 

[toddo97]

So if the gravity is that low, did the lacto make beer? would it be worth trying to bottle??? Is there anything I can add to feed another pitch of yeast?

 

[owmatooth]

my understanding is that strictly speaking the lacto did not ferment the wort, I haven't rolled back to the start to see what lacto you pitched, but I know there was an issue with white labs brett cultures containing sacc yeast in the brett packages (kind of like chocolate made in a factory that also uses peanut products- allergy beware).

1. how does it taste- other than the sour perhaps needing time to mellow
2. if you're bottling, you're still gonna add sugar to prime for bottling, that will reactivate the yeast.

as far as adding a significant amount of fermentables and another yeast, that would basically be a second beer. It'd be more controlled to make a separate beer and blend if the sour is too sour.

I'd pull out a cup, add some yeast energizer and see what happens in a day or so. If you get Krausen, you got viable yeast that's done with the fermenting. Either way, all comes back to how's it taste now and what's the gravity sitting at?

 

[toddo97]

1. how does it taste- other than the sour perhaps needing time to mellow
2. if you're bottling, you're still gonna add sugar to prime for bottling, that will reactivate the yeast.

as far as adding a significant amount of fermentables and another yeast, that would basically be a second beer. It'd be more controlled to make a separate beer and blend if the sour is too sour.

I'd pull out a cup, add some yeast energizer and see what happens in a day or so. If you get Krausen, you got viable yeast that's done with the fermenting. Either way, all comes back to how's it taste now and what's the gravity sitting at?

It doesn't taste too bad--of course, being my 2nd batch that needs to be taken with a grain of salt. My 1st batch still isn't finished bottle conditioning so I don't really know what it's supposed to taste like prior to conditioning. I ordered a pack of yeast last night. Should I order the energizer and throw both in or just try the energizer? As of a couple of days ago, the gravity was 1.013.

 

[owmatooth]

just throw in the energizer, that will help isolate the issue of whether you have active yeast still. You're not gonna get it much below 1.013 anyway, so I'm thinking it's done and ready for bottle conditioning. Prime as directed and let it sit for a month or so then chill it and see.

 

[Dcpcooks]

Lacto will not ferment the wort to completion without the help of sacc or brett. It will reduce the ph of the wort which can hinder Sacc yeast viability. It will ferment out between .5 and 1 Plato of maltose based on a study reported in 2015 at the Belgian conference as MTF has reported.

Are you really just three days into the sacc yeast pitch? I would expect a slow fermentation in your case. It's a relatively low ph environment and it may take a bit of time for the sacc yeast to acclimate and move past the lag phase. It is possible that your lowered the ph to far and the sacc yeast can't thrive in the low ph environment. You don't really know your ph as strips are really bad at measuring ph.

76 degrees won't stop lacto from my experiences with it. The last big batch we made was a 100% lacto pitch into a 55 gallon barrel. Our club used a fresh Sophie barrel from goose island which contains brett, we were relying on the brett to finish fermentation. We pitched that barrel at 100+ degrees and let it cool naturally in the barrel. That beer took roughly a year to ferment out, it's still in the barrel.

At this point i think you need to give it a little time to work before you try pitching again. If you are going to repitch sacc yeast you may want to look at the two yeasts mentioned in the attachment posted below as they are more ph tolerant.

My suggestion to you is buy a ph meter so you know where your ph really is. Consider pitching some sour dregs with brett and pedio which will be able to ferment the wort out. Next time you may want to shorten the time the lacto has to work before pitching a sacc yeast.

Based on your gravity readings I'd suspect some level of cross contamination. How did you hold the wort during the long lacto phase? Was it in a kettle overnight?


http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Saccharomyces

 

[kh54s10]

Ignore those posts that say the wort will not ferment at 76 degrees. In fact the yeast would absolutely LOVE that temperature. The problem with high temperatures is flavor, not fermentation. It would take 140 or more to kill the yeast.

Any krausen. If you are using a bucket and watching for airlock bubbles you may never see any. They often leak from the rim.

1.013 is probably done. Though I have heard sours could take many months to fully finish. (I have never done one) From what I know I would suggest that you put it in secondary and leave it for a couple of months then come back for more information.

 

[toddo97]

Sounds good--just ordered the energizer. Thanks for the help--crossing my fingers!

 

[toddo97]

Lacto will not ferment the wort to completion without the help of sacc or brett. It will reduce the ph of the wort which can hinder Sacc yeast viability. It will ferment out between .5 and 1 Plato of maltose based on a study reported in 2015 at the Belgian conference as MTF has reported.

Are you really just three days into the sacc yeast pitch? I would expect a slow fermentation in your case. It's a relatively low ph environment and it may take a bit of time for the sacc yeast to acclimate and move past the lag phase. It is possible that your lowered the ph to far and the sacc yeast can't thrive in the low ph environment. You don't really know your ph as strips are really bad at measuring ph.

76 degrees won't stop lacto from my experiences with it. The last big batch we made was a 100% lacto pitch into a 55 gallon barrel. Our club used a fresh Sophie barrel from goose island which contains brett, we were relying on the brett to finish fermentation. We pitched that barrel at 100+ degrees and let it cool naturally in the barrel. That beer took roughly a year to ferment out, it's still in the barrel.

At this point i think you need to give it a little time to work before you try pitching again. If you are going to repitch sacc yeast you may want to look at the two yeasts mentioned in the attachment posted below as they are more ph tolerant.

My suggestion to you is buy a ph meter so you know where your ph really is. Consider pitching some sour dregs with brett and pedio which will be able to ferment the wort out. Next time you may want to shorten the time the lacto has to work before pitching a sacc yeast.

Based on your gravity readings I'd suspect some level of cross contamination. How did you hold the wort during the long lacto phase? Was it in a kettle overnight?


http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Saccharomyces

I'm at almost 4 days now--I tasted it before I pitched the yeast and it was sour, but not as sour as I usually like. I wanted to get it as sour as possible before pitching yeast which is why I waited two weeks before the yeast (and is why i added the Good Belly after a week). I put it in the fermenter as soon as it cooled from the boil (no kettle souring). Maybe I'll add the energizer and let it sit for a few days to see if that kicks something off?

 

[zgja2]

I'm in the middle of my 2nd batch ever and 1st sour beer (berliner weisse) and pitched my yeast almost 3 days ago and haven't gotten any activity in my air lock. I made my wort about 2 weeks ago and added the lacto that came with the kit [White Labs Lactobacillus (WLP677) if that helps]. I read that the dubruekii strain in there will only get to a ph of around 4.5 so I added some Good Belly about a week ago. With my very questionable ph strips, I figured the ph to be 3.4-3.5 so I pitched the Danstar Nottingham that came it. I also had a half a pack of Safale S-05 from my first batch that may or may not have still been viable. I don't have a climate controlled area so it's sitting at about 76 degrees which isn't ideal, but I wouldn't think would be a yeast killer. The strange thing is that when I boiled the wort, got an OG reading of 1.038, but when I pitched the yeast, I took another reading and got 1.013. I thought the lacto wouldn't have any effect on that, but of course, this is my 2nd batch so I not terribly knowledgeable. Surely it couldn't be done fermenting with just that lacto, could it? Should I get another pack of yeast and try to pitch again? I can get a pack from Amazon Prime of Safale S-04 that I'll get before the weekend. Thanks!

I know exactly what happened. White labs lacto d has a reputation for being contaminated with yeast. So instead of souring your wort you fermented it. If you boiled before pitching yeast then you evaporated all the alcohol out. If not then you should be fine and the reason for no activity is it already fermented. I suggest checking out the website and FB group Milk The Funk. lots of good info on sour and funky brewing. Just read the Wiki first

 

[toddo97]

I know exactly what happened. White labs lacto d has a reputation for being contaminated with yeast. So instead of souring your wort you fermented it. If you boiled before pitching yeast then you evaporated all the alcohol out. If not then you should be fine and the reason for no activity is it already fermented. I suggest checking out the website and FB group Milk The Funk. lots of good info on sour and funky brewing. Just read the Wiki first

Wow--good to know. Is that the reason for the 1.038 to 1.013 gravity drop? I boiled before souring, but not again before pitching the yeast.

 

[SanPancho]

Yep. Lacto dont eat that much. You had some yeast in there somehow.

In the future, dont judge your sour level by taste, you have very sugary wort with some acid in it. Even down near 3.0 most worts wont taste sour at normal OGs. When the sugars disappear, only then the acid stands out. Even a cheap 20 buck pocket meter from amazon will give you decent ph reading if you calibrate and store well. Go with that next time.

 

[toddo97]

Yep. Lacto dont eat that much. You had some yeast in there somehow.

In the future, dont judge your sour level by taste, you have very sugary wort with some acid in it. Even down near 3.0 most worts wont taste sour at normal OGs. When the sugars disappear, only then the acid stands out. Even a cheap 20 buck pocket meter from amazon will give you decent ph reading if you calibrate and store well. Go with that next time.

I'll definitely get a ph meter as soon as I do a bit of research on good bang for the buck ones. I knew the strips wouldn't be very accurate, but wanted to get something to give me a ballpark reading. Isn't most of the sugar gone at this point if the yeast that snuck into the lacto has been eating it?

 

[Dcpcooks]

I'll definitely get a ph meter as soon as I do a bit of research on good bang for the buck ones. I knew the strips wouldn't be very accurate, but wanted to get something to give me a ballpark reading. Isn't most of the sugar gone at this point if the yeast that snuck into the lacto has been eating it?

Well you still have .013 gravity points left in the beer. Sacc yeast may struggle to finish it off but Brett will eat it. It's possible you flashed off the alcohol when you boiled it, I believe the boiling point of alcohol is around 170. So you may want to pull a sample and taste it and see if you can get a little buzz? You could take a reading with a refractometer if you have one. That could show you if you boiled off alcohol. If it's the same reading as your hydrometer then you boiled off the booze.

You can let it ride and see if you have a long lag phase due to the low ph.
You can add some CBC yeast (you might need this yeast to bottle condition) or 3711 and see if you can get a bit more attenuation.

You could spin up a starter and pitch it at the peak to see if that gets you any more fermentation.

You can add Brett to it and let it eat away and finish the fermentation.

The reality is you waited a bit long during the souring phase and that's causing you some challenges. Since you don't know the ph you don't know if it's too low for sacc yeast to finish it. So your not going to find a text book solution to this unfortunately.

If it were my beer I'd give it a few days to see if you get a bit more fermentation. I still think it's possible your in a long lag phase due to the ph. If I didn't see any signs of fermentation I'd pitch some brett and see where that takes me. At least you'd be able to bottle condition the beer with the brett.

I'm assuming you want to bottle this beer? If that's the case then you'll need to read the link I posted above where they discuss getting enough viable yeast in suspension in a low ph environment to carbonate your bottles. That's based on the assumption that your below 3.5 ph and that's why your not seeing any additional sacc yeast fermentation. If that's the case then you'll have the same problem trying to bottle condition the beer as your just moving the problem downstream and not solving for the problem. If your going to keg it and force carbonate it then you may want to just go that route and call it a day on this batch.

 

[toddo97]

Well you still have .013 gravity points left in the beer. Sacc yeast may struggle to finish it off but Brett will eat it. It's possible you flashed off the alcohol when you boiled it, I believe the boiling point of alcohol is around 170. So you may want to pull a sample and taste it and see if you can get a little buzz? You could take a reading with a refractometer if you have one. That could show you if you boiled off alcohol. If it's the same reading as your hydrometer then you boiled off the booze.

You can let it ride and see if you have a long lag phase due to the low ph.
You can add some CBC yeast (you might need this yeast to bottle condition) or 3711 and see if you can get a bit more attenuation.

You could spin up a starter and pitch it at the peak to see if that gets you any more fermentation.

You can add Brett to it and let it eat away and finish the fermentation.

The reality is you waited a bit long during the souring phase and that's causing you some challenges. Since you don't know the ph you don't know if it's too low for sacc yeast to finish it. So your not going to find a text book solution to this unfortunately.

If it were my beer I'd give it a few days to see if you get a bit more fermentation. I still think it's possible your in a long lag phase due to the ph. If I didn't see any signs of fermentation I'd pitch some brett and see where that takes me. At least you'd be able to bottle condition the beer with the brett.

I'm assuming you want to bottle this beer? If that's the case then you'll need to read the link I posted above where they discuss getting enough viable yeast in suspension in a low ph environment to carbonate your bottles. That's based on the assumption that your below 3.5 ph and that's why your not seeing any additional sacc yeast fermentation. If that's the case then you'll have the same problem trying to bottle condition the beer as your just moving the problem downstream and not solving for the problem. If your going to keg it and force carbonate it then you may want to just go that route and call it a day on this batch.

Unfortunately I don't have a refractometer. If I pitch brett after giving it a few more days, how long should that sit and should I aerate before pitching? I'm definitely going to bottle it. and CBC yeast is cask and bottling yeast? Thanks

 

[Dcpcooks]

Unfortunately I don't have a refractometer. If I pitch brett after giving it a few more days, how long should that sit and should I aerate before pitching? I'm definitely going to bottle it. and CBC yeast is cask and bottling yeast? Thanks

I wouldn't aerate it you'll just get vinegar. If you going for brett you'll need a bit of time for it to work. A month is probably a good timeline. Yes CBC is formulated for barrel aged beer. It'll allow you to get some bubbles in the bottle .

 

[toddo97]

I wouldn't aerate it you'll just get vinegar. If you going for brett you'll need a bit of time for it to work. A month is probably a good timeline. Yes CBC is formulated for barrel aged beer. It'll allow you to get some bubbles in the bottle .

So use CBC in addition to sugar prior to bottling or will I not need sugar if using it?

 

[Dcpcooks]

So use CBC in addition to sugar prior to bottling or will I not need sugar if using it?

You still need sugar at bottling[emoji106]

 

[jalc6927]

Are you sure you had the cover and the airlock properly sealed? Maybe the gas snuck out through a leak

If it's down to 1.013, there was some fermentation going on

 

[toddo97]

Are you sure you had the cover and the airlock properly sealed? Maybe the gas snuck out through a leak

If it's down to 1.013, there was some fermentation going on

I'm fairly sure the cover/airlock were sealed, but it's a plastic bucket so there definitely could've been a leak. I had it wrapped in a blanket for a week while it soured so I guess I missed any of the fermentation activity since I didn't even think to look for that during souring.