55 Gallon AE Kettle system

[Lucky_Chicken]

Do you mean direct infusion or using steam circulated in the coil and back through the condensent. I would be a little concerned with direct infusion as to the quality of water comming out. The system is large and supplies other equipment and the lines are black iron. I had though of using kettles but not of putting a coil in the mash tank. I'm sure it cant be any harder to control a steam valve on a solinode then an element.

hmmmm......

Steam would be run through the coil and back to the condensent. A couple pressure sensors to go with your valves and you will be in buisness on a controller.

 

[LordUlrich]

I would not worry about the hlt power too much. The brewery I work at uses a electric hlt , we fill with the chilled water, and typicay run the hlt over night to get to temp. Make your hlt large enough, and relax.

As far as what you were thinking oh using a keg with a heater for mash temp control, that sounds similar to a grant. What I would do is let The mash gravity drains into the tank and when full is pumped back into the mlt. Controling the pump with a float switch. This is also much better for the pump and prevents a vacume from forming at the false bottom

 

[P-J]

Talked to an electrician friend of mine. He says I won't gain much with 3 phase heating elements. Biggest advantage is the wire run will use a lower gauge. So not so concerned about this now. I believe I have 2 240 single phase units I can get off the bone pile. Like these.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#immersion-heaters/=e1mfqy
Mine 4500 watts each. McMasters do not list this one but thats what I have.

Bummer. I'm 3/4 the way through drawing a custom diagram for you for a 480V 3 phase control system.

I'll quit while I'm ahead and stop wasting my time.

Wishing you the best in your new adventure...

P-J

 

[wadefisher]

Putting a couple thoughts together here.
Since I do have steam power. Maybe I should be thinking in this direction. What do you think about putting a stainless coil in the Boil Kettle and using steam to boil. Would we be able to reasonably get enough surface area?
? This would save finding the proper size jacketed kettle and be easier to make other adaptations. I'm invisioning something like Kals but run steam through the coil to heat the wort being boiled in the kettle.
http://theelectricbrewery.com/hot-liquor-tank?page=5

Also for the MLT. This would seem simple enough. The tubing is rated for way more presure than we would ever put to it. I forget the HP rating of my boiler but it is more than enough. We have 2 working presures 15 psi and 40 psi. That stainless tubing is rated for 1000 psi. I run 40 psi in my 40 gallon jacket kettle and cook product at *250. Can get a batch there in like 30 minutes or less. How much less/more efficient having the coil right inside the wort I don't know. You would think more. How much coil? Most presure kettles are only jacketed partially.

And we are planning on going from this 1.5 barrel system to a 10 barrel system and possibly building it out of reporposed vessels. Steam is a much more viable option on the larger build so this would be getting us valuable experience.

Now for the real kicker. Anyone read the article by Jamil about using immersion chiller with whirlpool being better for chilling than plate chiller? You could boil with this built in coil. Then switch it over to water with a couple valves to chill your wort. Same coil already in the kettle and sterilized.
And no I have not had too much beer . Just thinking while stuck in the SUV headed to FL

Anyone thoughts at all please post.

 

[wadefisher]

P-J; Thanks for the effort, sorry if this plan is a little in flux. That's why I started this thread to put heads together and it is already helping. The 3 phase idea is not dead. It just now has competion.

 

[wadefisher]

One reason the 3 phase is still viable will be if the closes panel to the brewery room is tapped I may have to bring power from the MAIN which is 150' away. This is where we may still decide to buy the 3 phase elements. Unless the steam thing is workable, then I wouldn't need all the extra power..... geezzz....

 

[P-J]

IMHO - You are far better off with the immersion chiller. The plate chiller will give you serious grief down the road, especially with your intended setup. Jamil's setup is the hallmark on how to accomplish it. If you do go with a plate chiller, do not get one that cannot be taken apart. You need to get one that can be completely disassembled plate by plate. Trust me on this and do not throw your money away.!

Your second reply (below): Keep in mind that if you go single phase with the power required for your intended brewery, you dollar outlay will more than triple and become extremely complicated for you in the process. You are, after all, trying to set up a commercial brewery - No?

P-J

...
Now for the real kicker. Anyone read the article by Jamil about using immersion chiller with whirlpool being better for chilling than plate chiller? You could boil with this built in coil. Then switch it over to water with a couple valves to chill your wort. Same coil already in the kettle and sterilized.
...

One reason the 3 phase is still viable will be if the closes panel to the brewery room is tapped I may have to bring power from the MAIN which is 150' away. This is where we may still decide to buy the 3 phase elements. Unless the steam thing is workable, then I wouldn't need all the extra power..... geezzz....

 

[Bsquared]

If you have access to steam, you should be able to Frankenstein a 3-7bbl brewery together fairly cheep. Spend your money on fermenters though.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GROEN-150-G...337?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3367a9fb99

 

[milldoggy]

If you have access to steam, you should be able to Frankenstein a 3-7bbl brewery together fairly cheep. Spend your money on fermenters though.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GROEN-150-G...337?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3367a9fb99

Wow those are in Reading, not to far from Wadefisher too!!!


Need to find a steam source now

 

[Brewmoor]

Forget 3 phase. No need to mess with that if you dont have to. Everything is more expensive. Stick to single phase. I used 3 4500w elements in my boil kettles. I ran a 60a circuit to each kettle. I too used 55 gallon drums. I easily boiled 50 gallon batches. You just need to skim the hot break and watch the boil closely. I had two boil kettles and I was able to get a finished batch of 75 gallons after all transfers.

 

[thomashp]

On demand water heaters are the way to go! We use some at work that max out at 185degF. One of those babies could be an instant never ending HLT.

 

[wadefisher]

If you have access to steam, you should be able to Frankenstein a 3-7bbl brewery together fairly cheep. Spend your money on fermenters though.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GROEN-150-G...337?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3367a9fb99

Yes Bsquared I agree. My first 2 are from Stout Tanks. 125 Gallons each.

 

[wadefisher]

Forget 3 phase. No need to mess with that if you dont have to. Everything is more expensive. Stick to single phase. I used 3 4500w elements in my boil kettles. I ran a 60a circuit to each kettle. I too used 55 gallon drums. I easily boiled 50 gallon batches. You just need to skim the hot break and watch the boil closely. I had two boil kettles and I was able to get a finished batch of 75 gallons after all transfers.

With your 3 4500w elements do you need to put a potentiometer on it to control the boil? Or just ON/OFF switch.

Also I see you are boiling 50 Gallons. Do you use a foaming additive? I always use a product like Fermcap-S in my 10 gallon systems.

What do you use for a MLT if you have 2 boil kettles? Since I have 3 barrel fermenters coming I figured a 1.5 barrel 55 gallon system run 2 batches in one day. Maybe I should configure the MLT to handle more and make 2 boil kettles.

 

[P-J]

wadefisher,

I ended up completing the 3 phase diagram as I originally intended.
Just something for you to consider.

As usual - click on the image for a full scale diagram:




P-J

 

[lamarguy]

Any reason for not using two three phase SSRs?

And, I assume you don't plan to do step mashes since you're not including a MLT heat source.

 

[wadefisher]

P-J Thanks very much for the diagram. It is greatly appreciated

 

[Brewmoor]

With your 3 4500w elements do you need to put a potentiometer on it to control the boil? Or just ON/OFF switch.

Also I see you are boiling 50 Gallons. Do you use a foaming additive? I always use a product like Fermcap-S in my 10 gallon systems.

What do you use for a MLT if you have 2 boil kettles? Since I have 3 barrel fermenters coming I figured a 1.5 barrel 55 gallon system run 2 batches in one day. Maybe I should configure the MLT to handle more and make 2 boil kettles.

Sorry for the late reply, I had 2 MLT's I sorta did a modified batch/fly sparge to make it work. Using the extra boil kettle to heat water. I would batch sparge what was left in first BK. Then I would start transfer from MLT to that kettle. Then I would fly sparge the whole 50 gallons from the second BK into the first MLT. When I was filled in the first BK I would start transfer from second MLT to second BK. Then I would sparge with what was left in the first mlt to the second mlt. It was a pain but it worked well.

I did not use foam control just very carefully watched the boil for the first 15 minutes and tried my best to skim the hot break. Its strange but my 7bbl kettle is violent. I have to use fermcap-S to keep it under control. I think that might be the difference between electric and direct fire.

I did use a Pot to control the kettles. I made a PWM circuit for both kettles.

 

[P-J]

Any reason for not using two three phase SSRs?

And, I assume you don't plan to do step mashes since you're not including a MLT heat source.

Three phase SSRs are out of this world expensive. But you can try China and wait 2 months - No? (And then wait on the quality of the produce and its reliability?)

Step mashing requires a completely different setup. RIMS becomes fairly expensive and complicated to control. There are too many variables to be able to control accurate and repeatable results. Also, IMHO, you do not want to ever directly heat the MLT. That's just me, apparently.

If you are dead set on step mashing, control the HLT temp and use a HERMS coil to accomplish the task. With a 3 phase setup it would be easy to drive the HLT temps up very rapidly.

Mission accomplished.!

IMHO

 

[lamarguy]

Three phase SSRs are out of this world expensive. But you can try China and wait 2 months - No? (And then wait on the quality of the produce and its reliability?)

A 40A three phase SSR is around $150. Not unreasonable.

RIMS becomes fairly expensive and complicated to control. There are too many variables to be able to control accurate and repeatable results. Also, IMHO, you do not want to ever directly heat the MLT.

Commercial breweries use steam-jacketed mash tuns as the norm. Also, a RIMS/HERMS is dead simple to control with a PID and a temperature probe near the exit.

Good luck with your build.

 

[P-J]

A 40A three phase SSR is around $150. Not unreasonable.

Commercial breweries use steam-jacketed mash tuns as the norm. Also, a RIMS/HERMS is dead simple to control with a PID and a temperature probe near the exit.

Good luck with your build.

Not my build. I developed a diagram for the OP.

BTW: $150 for a 3 phase SSR is a boat load more $'s than using either single or dual SSRs for the same result.

 

[wadefisher]

Here is what I'm leaning towards right now. I still am in the early stages of planning. Will most likely start the build the end of October.

 

[wadefisher]

Let me try to upload the diagram again.

 

[wadefisher]

P-J; the 3 phase 18000 watt elements are like 3 feet long. So they are out.

I'm leaning towards these mounts from Brewers Hardware . com They will be easily removed for cleaning. Allowing me to use 220 v 4500 watt elements and these adapters look more water tight than the units I have already.

 

[P-J]

P-J; the 3 phase 18000 watt elements are like 3 feet long. So they are out.

I'm leaning towards "these mounts" from Brewers Hardware . com They will be easily removed for cleaning. Allowing me to use 220 v 4500 watt elements and these adapters look more water tight than the units I have already.

I think that is a good plan. All you would need to do to run on 240V - 3 phase power is to install 3 elements in eack kettle. I'll have to do some digging for 480V - 3 phase power but I think you would also need 3 elements (in a "Y" configuration) in each kettle.

If you plan on either setup, I'd be glad to mod the diagran for you.

P-J

 

[wadefisher]

I think that is a good plan. All you would need to do to run on 240V - 3 phase power is to install 3 elements in eack kettle. I'll have to do some digging for 480V - 3 phase power but I think you would also need 3 elements (in a "Y" configuration) in each kettle.

If you plan on either setup, I'd be glad to mod the diagran for you.

P-J

Here is where I personally am a little fuzzy. What's the difference between 220v Single phase vs 240v 3 phase. Can I use regular 220v HWH elements?

P-J your input has already been a lot of help. I've looked at your wire schematics in several treads to get ideas for what I want to do.

 

[P-J]

...
I'll have to do some digging for 480V - 3 phase power but I think you would also need 3 elements (in a "Y" configuration) in each kettle.
...

I did the "digging" and it will not work out using 240V elements on 480V 3 phase power unless you use a total of 6 elements per kettle. 240V 3 phase is A-ok.

 

[P-J]

Here is where I personally am a little fuzzy. What's the difference between 220v Single phase vs 240v 3 phase. Can I use regular 220v HWH elements?

P-J your input has already been a lot of help. I've looked at your wire schematics in several treads to get ideas for what I want to do.

208 vs 220 vs 240 is really all the same thing. It all depends on how the power is delivered to your facility. It starts with how the power company configures the transformers with a 'Delta' or 'Y' feed. The elements are rated for 240V and will work just fine.

 

[wadefisher]

P-J;
The instruction sheet for SYL-2352 PID (2011.02 P7/8) shows an example of a 240VAC heating application. They have L1 on [9] and L2 on [10]
On schematics you have done I see you put L1 on [10] and Neutral on [9]
What is the difference?

 

[P-J]

P-J;
The instruction sheet for SYL-2352 PID (2011.02 P7/8) shows an example of a 240VAC heating application. They have L1 on [9] and L2 on [10]
On schematics you have done I see you put L1 on [10] and Neutral on [9]
What is the difference?

It really does not matter. It can be done that way as well. However, I show the PID being powered with 120V AC. This saves a little bit on switches as a double pole switch in not requires for 120V AC. With 240V PID power, it should be powered through a double pole switch so that the PID is isolated when off.

IMHO.

 

[wadefisher]

HLT/HWH Control unit;
Each tank control unit will be independent from each other.
This will keep the system modular. I expect a lot of changes over the next year or so.

The HLT is a 50 gallon standard Hot water heater. I will remove the built in thermostats.
I will also make sure the system is 'open' so as not to be able to build up pressure.
And it will still have a pressure release valve built in.
It is filled manually by turning on a ball valve for filling with preheated water.
There is an overflow pipe to a near by drain. (Figured this out the hard way.)
Water is circulated from the bottom to the top by a March pump. This prevents temperature variations.
The Sensor is fitted into the recirculation pipe.
A sight glass is attached to know the fill level and to measure the amount being infused into the mash.
I will have this higher than the MLT so I can gravity sparge. But it could be pumped easily if I want to lower it.
I have allreay made a 20 gallon unit like this and used a purchased controller.


Here is what is needed from the control unit:

1) Power feed In; 220v Single phase

2) Control unit power on/off at incoming point. Lighted push button to 220 relay.
Auber SW1 Red and Contactor, 2 pole 40 A, 240V coil CN-PBC402-240V

3) Single SYL-2352 PID temperature controller
Pt100 RTD Sensor

4) Single SSR to single 220v output to power 1 or 2 4500watt elements
Auber 40 A SSR RS1A40D40

5) Water level protection switch.
Elements can not come on if water is below minimum level.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#liquid-level-switches/=e7tysr
and http://www.mcmaster.com/#liquid-level-switches/=e7u3yj

6) Indicator light when power is being suppied to heating elements

7) Over Temp Alarm
Flashing Buzzer Auber FLBuz

7) 2 Switched pump controls. 1 for Recirculation , 1 for future use.
110v Outlets
Auber SW1 Blue

What would be the advantage of a 4 wire system vs 3 wire?

Can you indicate the wire gauges needed inside the control panel?

P-J if you can design my control panels, I will upgrade your account to LifeTime Supporter. Or whatever else I can do for you.