4+3 or 3+1+3

[jalgayer]

All -

I know that there is no hard fast rule. I know that there are different answers. I also know that there are exceptions. However, I like to have a general plan as it helps me to budget my time and plan future batches etc.

I have heard arguments for both sides of the secondary or no-secondary. I decided that I am going to go with the "no-secondary" as my standard and use a 4+3 (4wk primary/3week bottle).

On batches that require dryhopping/fruit I will go with a 3+1+3 (3wk primary/1wk secondary/3 week bottle)

On batches that require bulk aging I plan to go with a 2+??? (2wk primary/varied secondary)

All the first numbers (primary) are of course to be adjusted if I am not at my FG with that time is up.

So, my question is this: Does this seem like a reasonable plan to institute? Are there any major variables I am not considering?

Thank!

 

[BadgerBrewer]

Based on the numbers I suspect that all of your brews will be Ales? If so, it looks okay to me. Personally I have gone to the no secondary way of brewing and I really have enjoyed the benefits. The yeast cake is so tight at the end of 3 weeks that I get virtually no trub when racking to my keg (I no longer bottle). I then cold crash for maybe a week with 2 days of force carbing at 30 psi, purge, gas to serving pressure and drink!

So the only change I would do if bottling would be to only spend 2-3 weeks in primary and then bottle.

 

[jalgayer]

Wow.

I just feeling like bottling after 2 weeks is too quick. It seems like everytime I turn around someone is leaving it for 3-4 weeks then bottling.

 

[bbrim]

Beers that need bulk aging are typical stronger beers and would require a longer primary as well as the secondary. This will allow the maximum amount of yeast to be in contact with the beer for long enough to finish fermentation.

 

[BadgerBrewer]

Quite the contrary to my experiences in this forum. I actually used to primary for 1, secondary for 2, then bottle for 3 (weeks). Many threads on the site talk about the benefits of leaving it on the primary longer to let it clean up better and make a tighter cake and then you really wouldn't need the secondary (unless you were going to dry hop). Once I changed my beers were clearer and better tasting than ever!

 

[jalgayer]

Again, I understand that there are "big beers" that I will need to alter this for.

But the general 1.052ish beer... or a 1.060. Is a 4+3 (or even a 3+3) a reasonable plan?

Is 3+3 generally good enough?

 

[bernerbrau]

No secondary works great for me. Beer clears up great in the fridge after a couple weeks. Now I only do secondary if I'm dry hopping or adding other post-fermentation ingredients (e.g. oak).

Note that your carbonation time will vary depending on your beer's gravity and ABV%. A very light beer will take less than 3 weeks to carbonate; a very big beer may take more.

 

[ChshreCat]

I never primary for under 3 weeks and rarely for more unless there's a problem. I usually secondary a week, though I'll go another week or two if I want more bulk aging. I haven't done any huge beers so can't speak for longer bulk aging. Then 3+ weeks in the bottle before I expect it to be decent.

 

[BendBrewer]

This is something that I have been having trouble understanding.

Local breweries rack most of their beers out of Primary in 5-7 days.

Why does it take so much longer for Home Brews?

 

[XXguy]

Production breweries usually use tighter process control - proper pitching amounts - and pressurized fermentation.

Read up on Wort Monger's thread on pressurized fermentation.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/closed-system-pressurized-fermentation-technique-44344/

 

[Homercidal]

I usually primary for 3 weeks or maybe 4 or so, unless it's a lighter beer and I am in a hurry to get it in the kegerator. If it's not going to be dryhopped, I usually cold crash for 3 days in the fridge, then either keg or bottle.

 

[MrShake]

I've always gone with this formula:

Until Its Done + Until Its Done, if needed + Until its carbed

If your really trying to time box your beer, then your really not giving it its best chance at being the best!

 

[atromic]

I've been doing 3 primary + 3 bottle up to 1.072 with fantastic results, although I typically try to keep the drinking to a minimum until the beers have been bottle conditioning for at least 5 weeks. I would love to have enough room for a pipeline where I could let my beers bottle condition for over a month before I crack into them.

My house had been at 55 since November, so I'm hoping to see some quicker turn arounds once it warms up a bit. Bring it on spring!

 

[Pick]

I just bought a 29.3 liter keg of Yuengling, (looks like a Torpedo), so I would keep my paws off the homebrew, until it is aged properly. Went through one corny already this year before it hit it's prime.

 

[EvilGnome6]

Until Its Done + Until Its Done, if needed + Until its carbed

If your really trying to time box your beer, then your really not giving it its best chance at being the best!

This.

During primary, I take gravity readings every week until it's done. Could be 2 weeks, could be 6. Whatever it takes.

Then I give it 1-3 weeks in secondary to clear. The length in secondary is mostly determined by my brew schedule.

 

[jalgayer]

I've always gone with this formula:

Until Its Done + Until Its Done, if needed + Until its carbed

If your really trying to time box your beer, then your really not giving it its best chance at being the best!

Thanks! I guess you misunderstood my post, but ty anyway.

 

[ChshreCat]

I've always gone with this formula:

Until Its Done + Until Its Done, if needed + Until its carbed

If your really trying to time box your beer, then your really not giving it its best chance at being the best!

That's a given, but I'm not going to throw it in a bottle if it ferments out in 4 days. I go three weeks in primary barring problems, which means it's usually about 2 weeks more than it takes to be done fermenting. To me, "Until Its Done" isn't enough time.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

http://blogs.homebrewtalk.com/Boerderij_Kabouter/Secondary_fermentation_and_why_it_makes_me_crazy/

Secondary fermentation is a great way to bulk condition beers. It takes some attention to detail and almost no-one does it.

What most people call a secondary fermentation is actually just using a clearing tank. I think that a properly executed two stage fermentation is advantageous.

 

[MrShake]

That's a given, but I'm not going to throw it in a bottle if it ferments out in 4 days. I go three weeks in primary barring problems, which means it's usually about 2 weeks more than it takes to be done fermenting. To me, "Until Its Done" isn't enough time.

Done doesn't mean fermented out... Done means your gravity is stable plus an appropriate amount of time depending on beer style and ingredients.

If your truly wanting to make good beer.... you can't time-box your fermentation. I'm not going to primary a hef for "3 Weeks" and then Secondary for "1 Week" and then blah blah blah

In fact, I'll probably be in keg and carbonating in 10-14 days depending on when the gravity stabilizes and if it its expected gravity.

However, if I'm going to brew an RIS... I'm still not going to primary for 3 weeks and secondary for 1 week.... in fact, it might be much longer than that!

Don't Timebox Your brews!

 

[jalgayer]

Done doesn't mean fermented out... Done means your gravity is stable plus an appropriate amount of time depending on beer style and ingredients.

If your truly wanting to make good beer.... you can't time-box your fermentation. I'm not going to primary a hef for "3 Weeks" and then Secondary for "1 Week" and then blah blah blah

In fact, I'll probably be in keg and carbonating in 10-14 days depending on when the gravity stabilizes and if it its expected gravity.

However, if I'm going to brew an RIS... I'm still not going to primary for 3 weeks and secondary for 1 week.... in fact, it might be much longer than that!

Don't Timebox Your brews!

I guess I am not explaining myself good enough for you. Sorry - I sometimes write out my questions too fast. I will try to explain it again for you.

Even you say that you take your gravity readings after a fairly fixed amount of time. Yes, you may adjust either way based on varying factors - but you have an *approximate time* frame for when you will check.

That is what I was asking for. What is an approximate time frame that can be used as a guidline. Obviously, if I got to rack and the kraussen is still high the the blowoff is a bubbling madman I am not going to rack.

Sorry my question wasnt more clear.

 

[MrShake]

I guess I am not explaining myself good enough for you. Sorry - I sometimes write out my questions too fast. I will try to explain it again for you.

Even you say that you take your gravity readings after a fairly fixed amount of time. Yes, you may adjust either way based on varying factors - but you have an *approximate time* frame for when you will check.

That is what I was asking for. What is an approximate time frame that can be used as a guidline. Obviously, if I got to rack and the kraussen is still high the the blowoff is a bubbling madman I am not going to rack.

Sorry my question wasnt more clear.

I don't even think there is a standard time there either. I usually check visually my better bottles daily from the time they go in.... I usually judge based on the sediment layer and krausen when to start checking gravity.

I let the beer tell me what to do. Approximate times are crutches IMHO. I usually don't even label the fermenter with the date...

 

[ChshreCat]

The problem is that brewing is a complex process and many of us do it by "feel". We look at our fermenting beer and taste and and know that even though it's done fermenting and has had some extra time, well this one needs another week. We also know that different styles need different treatment. I think what most of us here are talking about is just a general rule of thumb that a beginning brewer can use as a baseline. For me... three weeks in primary works well. I didn't add on "for most beers, but not hefes or RIS or other big beers like a barley wine and barring stuck ferments or other issues" because I felt it went without saying.

 

[jalgayer]

The problem is that brewing is a complex process and many of us do it by "feel". We look at our fermenting beer and taste and and know that even though it's done fermenting and has had some extra time, well this one needs another week. We also know that different styles need different treatment. I think what most of us here are talking about is just a general rule of thumb that a beginning brewer can use as a baseline. For me... three weeks in primary works well. I didn't add on "for most beers, but not hefes or RIS or other big beers like a barley wine and barring stuck ferments or other issues" because I felt it went without saying.

Well spoken, Cat.

Exactly what I was looking for/talking about. A general rule that is a living rule in that its constantly changing from style to style and beer to beer.

 

[MrShake]

Why such a big drive for a general rule? What benefit do you get from having said general rule?

If you want a general rule, then it needs to cover more ground than the 3 week primary is going to cover. 4 weeks minimum would be my "general rule"

But again.. whats the benefit of a general rule? Why teach someone to generalize when they should be taught to learn from their beer and let it tell them when its done.

I don't generalize on purpose... and I make better beer than when I did.

 

[jalgayer]

Why such a big drive for a general rule? What benefit do you get from having said general rule?

If you want a general rule, then it needs to cover more ground than the 3 week primary is going to cover. 4 weeks minimum would be my "general rule"

But again.. whats the benefit of a general rule? Why teach someone to generalize when they should be taught to learn from their beer and let it tell them when its done.

I don't generalize on purpose... and I make better beer than when I did.

There is not a big drive at all for a general rule. I do not know any other way of trying to ask my question. I am sorry that you do not understand what I am asking, but thanks for replying anyway.

I have received enough people that answered the question that I asked to feel like I can move on from here.

Thank you all!

 

[maida7]

For most ales I find 1-2 weeks of fermentation is plenty. On super high gravity beers I sometimes find I need to leave them an extra week to get to final gravity.

Regular ales I will drink after 1-2 weeks in the keg. Stronger beers need lots more aging. some I will site for 3-4 months.

So for a basic ale I'd say 1-2 + 1-2 But you must oxygenate your wort, pitch the proper amount of healthy yeast and precisely control the fermentation temps. If you don't do all that then you will have problems.

 

[jalgayer]

Great, Maida! Thanks for the tips! Much appreciated

 

[user 22118]

Also, if you are worried about the set amount of time then what you should do is this:

1. Make a Mild - Ferment 2 weeks in primary and bottle
2. Make a 1.060 beer - Leave in Primary three weeks
3. Make a 1.060 Beer - Primary 1-2, Secondary 1-2 weeks
4. Make a 1.080 beer and primary 3 weeks
5. yada yda yadda

Get my drift? Within 4-7 days the primary amount of fermentation will have subsided on most all beers. We are then waiting for the yeast to clean up, flocculate out and that is when we make the decision to bottle. I find that with the proper amount of yeast, I get most all of my fermentations to complete by day 7. Smaller beers take less time. My latest barleywine fermented completely by day 5 at 68*f from 1.120 to 1.022. I waited another week to rack it into my oak barrel for a month and then bottled.

Most all of my beers are bottled at day 21. It works for my schedule and the flavor of the brew.

 

[ChshreCat]

Why such a big drive for a general rule? What benefit do you get from having said general rule?

If you want a general rule, then it needs to cover more ground than the 3 week primary is going to cover. 4 weeks minimum would be my "general rule"

But again.. whats the benefit of a general rule? Why teach someone to generalize when they should be taught to learn from their beer and let it tell them when its done.

I don't generalize on purpose... and I make better beer than when I did.

Because not everyone is born with innate knowledge of how to brew. It's a learned process. Until then people use recipes and guidelines on how to do things before they come into their own process and learn to recognize what their beer is telling them.

 

[homebrewer_99]

Fermentation is a natural process that is subject to numberous influences.

Put simply, a beer is done when the gravity says it is.